HC Deb 07 April 1851 vol 115 cc1203-7

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That so much of an Act of the last Session for the regulation of Process and Practice in the Superior Courts of Common Law in Ireland, as authorises the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland of certain Compensation Allowances, shall be extended to the Officers of the Exchequer Chamber in Ireland.

MR. KEOGH

thought it unreasonable to grant compensation to officers of whom the House had heard nothing, and therefore moved that the Chairman report progress.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."

MR. REYNOLDS

seconded the Motion.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

said, if the hon. and learned Gentleman had any objection to the Resolution, he did not see why he could not at once state such objection.

MR. KEOGH

said, the only notice which the House had of any intention to vote this compensation was in the words "Exchequer Chamber (Ireland), Committee thereupon." Now this certainly gave no explanation of any intention to move a large sum by way of compensation. He might retort on the noble Lord and say that some reason ought to be assigned for giving this compensation. Not one word by way of explanation had been given from the Treasury bench.

SIR G. GREY

said, the Resolution which had been proposed was substantially identical with the second clause of the Process and Practice (Ireland) Bill, which was in the hands of hon. Members, who might, therefore, have been aware that it was intended to give compensation to certain officers; but, according to the rules of the House, it was necessary to agree to a resolution in Committee for granting such compensation before the clause could be proposed in the Bill.

MR. HERRIES

said, the difficulty which now existed had arisen from this circumstance—that the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland, in proposing the introduction of the Resolution, had not given any explanation of the grounds on which it was founded.

MR. HATCHELL

said, the object of the Bill was, that by a provision of the Process and Practice Act of last Session, officers of the superior courts of law in Ireland who might be deprived of their offices, or whose emoluments might be diminished under the operation of the Act, should receive due compensation. The Judges, having had doubts whether the officers of the Exchequer Chamber were comprised in the Act, suggested that a Bill should be introduced by which all doubt should be removed, and the rules which they had laid down be extended by express warrant to the Exchequer Chamber.

MR. REYNOLDS

wished to know the officers of the Exchequer Chamber who would he affected by the Bill, their names, their rank, and their salary. He also beg- ged to ask if a gentleman of the name of Hitchcock was one of the officers of the Exchequer Chamber who would be affected by the Bill?

MR. HATCHELL

, in reply, said, that the number of officers in the Exchequer Chamber was a fact that did not come within his knowledge.

MR. KEOGH

said, that he had not received any satisfactory explanation of the object of the Bill, and he should therefore press his Motion.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 85: Majority 35.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. REYNOLDS

would not consent to the Vote without knowing the amount involved, and must move that the Chairman do now leave the Chair.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."

SIR G. GREY

said, it seemed to be the wish of some hon. Members for Ireland that information should be given respecting the nature of the Bill, and the amount of compensation which would be granted under it. It was impossible to state the exact amount of compensation, because that was left to the Treasury to determine; but he was informed that there would be only three officers who would be affected by the Bill, the highest of whose salaries was not more than 500l. a year. A few hundreds of pounds was, therefore, all that the Treasury could dispose of under the powers of the Bill.

MR. SADLEIR

was glad to find that information was at last being furnished, though it came from the English and not the Irish functionary. Perhaps another division would procure the names of the officers, an account of their duties, and a statement whether they held any other offices in the public service. He thought it unreasonable to bring forward Irish measures at so late an hour; but as the Irish Members were beginning to be of some little importance in that House, they were determined to put a check to such a course of proceeding. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department knew that the Irish Members had evinced on all occasions a wish to co-operate with the Government; and the right lion, and learned Master of the Rolls could testify how sincere a desire they had shown to carry out law reform in Ireland. But they would not submit to have Irish Bills postponed to an hour when it was impossible to discuss them fully.

The MASTER OF THE ROLLS

was most happy to acknowledge the assistance he had received from the Irish Members in passing the Practice and Process (Ireland) Bill. The proposed Bill was to extend that measure to the Exchequer Chamber, and there were certain officers connected with that Court who might be affected by this Bill; and if they should be so affected, it was only fair that they should receive compensation. He hoped, therefore, no objection would be pressed to the Committee going into the subject, and then no doubt they would have the names, offices, and salaries of the officers to be compensated. No doubt the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Sadleir) could give them all these particulars.

MR. SADLEIR

was unable to give the House any information of the kind.

MR. KEOGH

thought it unreasonable for the right hon. and learned Master of the Rolls to expect the hon. Member for Carlow to give information which the right hon. and learned Attorney General for Ireland confessed that he know nothing at all about. The House ought to know who these officers proposed to be compensated were, and what were their emoluments, salaries, and duties, before assenting to a clause to give them compensation. Without such facts before them, he objected to proceeding with such measures at that hour in the morning.

MR. HATCHELL

thought a most unusual discussion had been got up on that occasion, and he trusted the Committee would be allowed to go into the question and dispose of it.

MR. REYNOLDS

must persist in his intention to press his Motion, that the Chairman leave the chair.

MR. WALPOLE

hoped the hon. Gentleman would not insist on dividing the Committee. This was a mere matter of form, and would not pledge the House to anything in the Bill.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 35; Noes 77: Majority 42.

MR. KEOGH

must protest against proceeding with this question at one o'clock in the morning. He should move that the Chairman do now report progress.

SIR G. GREY

said, that the Committee was only asked to pass a Resolution to enable the House to consider the clauses of this Bill on a future day. As, however, some hon. Members thought it consistent with their duty to oppose what was a merely formal proceeding, and as he did not wish to stay there all night, he should not oppose the Motion for reporting progress.

House resumed.

Committee report progress; to sit again To-morrow.