ELECTIONS (IRELAND) BILL.

HC Deb 30 May 1850 vol 111 cc460-6

Bill read 3°.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the insertion of a clause to the effect that power should be given to the Lord Lieutenant, or other chief governor or governors of Ireland, to appoint additional polling places in any county or riding on receiving a petition praying for such appointment from the justices of the peace assembled at quarter-sessions.

Clause brought up, and read 1°.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time. "

MR. TORRENS M'CULLAGH

hoped that the Government would consent to limit the discretion of the Executive to the addition of quarter-sessions towns. If some such rule were not adopted, a door would be opened for the worst species of favouritism in counties that might be contested. The rule which he suggested was an obvious and a fair one; and without some limitation he must vote against the clause.

MR. FREWEN

, having a notice on the Paper of a clause to effect the same object by means of a petition from the grand jury-assembled at assizes, must oppose the hon. and learned Attorney General's clause. He said that the grand juries in Ireland performed the same fiscal business at assizes that the magistrates did at quarter--sessions in England; and as one object of the Bill was to assimilate the laws of the two countries as much as possible, his clause would create a power more analogous to that existing in England than the hon. and learned Attorney General's would. He contended that the Grand Jury Act worked well in Ireland.

MR. C. ANSTEY

begged to differ from the hon. Gentleman. He did not think that the grand-jury system worked well in Ireland. But he should oppose the hon. and learned Attorney General's clause, because he thought it would be very had to trust to a petition from Irish justices. He thought that the object would be better attained by the clause about to be proposed by the hon. Member for Roscommon, which sought to give the power of petitioning for additional polling places to a number (not less than 300) of the qualified electors of the barony.

SIR G. GREY

said, the clause had been drawn up in consequence of several recommendations received by Government, and only carried out a principle which had worked in England with perfect success. The additional polling places could not be established unless by an Order in Council, and an efficient check and control over the magistrates would be exercised by the Lord Lieutenant, or by the new Secretary, and by the Government. Besides, it was open to any hon. Member to state objections to any polling place, which the Government would take into consideration. The effect of this clause was to give the initiative to the justices; but the Privy Council had the control. It was intended to make the law the same as in England; and the alterations in the clause were only such as to suit the circumstances of Ireland.

MR. E. B. ROCHE

had the strongest possible objection to the principle of leaving such power in the hands of the magistracy. In political questions the magistrates did not possess the confidence of the majority of the people. It would not mend the evil to give a power of controling the magistrates to the Lord Lieutenant, or to the Irish Secretary, for they might all be partisans alike.

LORD NAAS

denied the statement of the hon. Member that the Irish magistracy did not enjoy the confidence of the people; on the contrary, he had never heard one expression of dissatisfaction among the people with respect to any magisterial decision.

MR. M. O'CONNELL

could only say that the noble Lord was very happy in his experience. He had nothing to say against the magistrates, but he knew that almost all over the country they had not the confidence of the people. He was averse to giving the power proposed by the clause to the magistrates, and doubly so to giving it to the grand jury, who were the essence of the magistrates.

SIR W. SOMERVILLE

said, that the Bill for appointing additional polling places in Ireland had been before the House for two years, and during all that time none of those direful dangers that were now apprehended from this clause had ever been thought of. Not a word of apprehension had been uttered during the progress of the present Bill to its second reading, nor until the House had gone into Committee upon it, when, upon a suggestion made by the hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington, that the English plan should be adopted as far as possible in Ireland, his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary conceded that it was reasonable and practicable. Not a word was then said against the plan; and his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General accordingly prepared the clause under consideration, which he earnestly trusted the House would agree to.

MR. SCULLY

opposed the giving of the power into the hands of the magistrates, who were always found in opposition to the opinions of the people, especially in the south of Ireland. There was no occasion to thrust in the clause at present. Let them wait for a year or two, and see how the Act worked. It would then be time enough, and easy enough, to introduce such a clause, if necessary.

MR. STAFFORD

defended the clause, and thought that the justices of the peace in Ireland might be safely intrusted with the power of fixing the polling places upon petition to the Lord Lieutenant. He was surprised to find such an indisposition among hon. Gentlemen opposite to intrust powers such as these to Irish gentlemen. If a man embarked his fortune in the colonies, or if he bought an estate in Scotland, he might then be trusted; but let him approach the fatal shore of Ireland, and hon. Members opposite would intrust him with as little as possible of the influence which belonged to his station. The gentry of Ireland were anxious to do their duty, and to atone for the past. Let the House, therefore, treat them, as much as they could, as belonging to a common empire, as subjects of the same Sovereign, and admit them to equal powers, equal responsibilities, and an equal administration.

MR. O'FLAHERTY

considered the clause to be objectionable for many reasons. Political feelings were frequently strong among the magistracy of Ireland, and the clause might lead to the recommendation or otherwise of polling places for political purposes.

MR. HUME

said, the distance of the polling places might be so great as to hinder the exercise of the franchise, and he saw no danger in leaving it to the magistrates to recommend additional polling places where required. He did not gee why a proposal to adopt the English practice should be opposed with regard to Ireland.

MR. S. CRAWFORD

would support the clause now brought forward by the Government as a great improvement upon the original clause.

The House divided:—Ayes 168; Noes 21: Majority 147.

MR. TORRENS M'CULLAGH moved as a proviso that no towns should be appointed as additional polling places but those at which quarter-sessions were held. The limitation for which he contended was the principle on which this Bill had originally been framed. No town which was not of the class in question had been inserted in the schedule of the Bill as introduced two years ago, or as introduced this year. It was, in point of fact, only in accordance with a suggestion of Gentlemen opposite, who had opposed the Franchise Bill in every stage, that this new and objectionable alteration had been made. Well, then, as the Government had brought in this clause to please their opponents, he hoped they would consent to place some limitation upon it, to satisfy their friends. Those who sat on that side of the House had been no parties and would be no parties to the compact between the Secretary for Ireland and the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire. They felt that the clause as it now stood would go far to neutralise in many places the benefits which had been anticipated from the Franchise Bill. It would enable landlords to have polling districts so arranged that the tenants should vote under their own immediate eye. They had heard of the evils of estate rating, but this was a plan which would be made use of to secure estate voting. To talk of the analogy of the English Act, was really to trifle with the subject. Why affect identity of terms and phrases, when the substance of things was dissimilar?

Amendment proposed, in line 7 of the said clause, after the words "mentioned in the said petition," to insert the words "and being a town or towns where quarter-sessions are held."

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

SIR W. SOMERVILLE

said, the object had been to embody the English system in the Bill, as was stated in the former debate. He had uniformly insisted on the principle of having the polling places so regulated as might be most convenient to the great body of voters; and in so doing, preference should be given to the sessions towns.

MR. C. ANSTEY

said, their position was this—they had put in the scedule of the Bill such polling places as they thought from their present knowledge would be fit and proper for the purpose; but, lest hereafter what they had done should be found imperfect, it was proposed to place in other hands, namely, that of the magistrates, the power of continuing from time to time the work which Parliament had begun. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dundalk proposed that there should be a limitation in the powers given to the magistrates, and the limitation was that the additional polling places named should be quarter-sessions towns. This he considered a very obvious and just proposition, therefore he would give it his decided support.

COLONEL DUNNE

opposed the Amendment, which he deemed wholly unnecessary, and regretted that such proposals should be brought forward merely for the sake of a little mock popularity.

MR. E. B. ROCHE

would give his support to the proposition of his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dundalk. It might be all very well for the hon. and gallant Member to defend the magistrates of Ireland; but all he could say was, that up to the present hour that body continued to act on all political questions in opposition to the feelings of the people of Ireland. He would mention, as one instance, that 800 magistrates had signed a memorial censuring the present Government, and censuring the Earl of Clarendon for the dismissal of Mr. Beers, who had sat as a judge on his own case. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland had said, "I will give you this clause, because it is in the English Reform Act." Now, there was no analogy in the case; but whenever anything could be found to act against Ireland, she was sure to have the benefit of it. If this close assimilation were to exist, why should not the right hon. Gentleman give Ireland a 40s. franchise—and why should not the county which he (Mr. Roche) had the honour to represent—the Yorkshire of Ireland—be divided as the Yorkshire of England was, so as to return an equivalent number of representatives? He well knew that no argument which he might use would have any effect on right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury bench; for, unfortunately, he had been sitting on the wrong side of the House. He, in accordance with the wishes of his constituency, supported the Government generally, and therefore his suggestions were deprived of that weight which they would possess if emanating from hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House. He denied that there was any compact between the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland and the Irish Members on that side of the House. He would sup-port the Amendment.

SIR DE L. EVANS

had heard no reason why the list of towns from which additional polling places should be selected should not be made out and added to the schedules of the Bill. The places at present appointed in the schedules were all quarter-sessions towns. Why then should not the future be limited to quarter-sessions towns also? There ought to be some limitation. It was absurd to say that the magistracy of Ireland possessed the political confidence of the public. If it were so, why were stipendiary magistrates appointed by Government in Ireland, and not in England? What reason could be assigned by the Government for it, but that the justices had not the confidence of the people.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD

would support the limitation. In the schedule of the Bill the polling places laid down were quarter-sessions towns; and he thought they should not give power to the magistrates to go beyond the principle of the Bill.

The House divided:—Ayes 52; Noes 118: Majority 66.

Clause read 3°, and added.

MR. F. FRENCH moved a clause to the effect that on petition from the inhabitants of any barony in which no polling place is situated, signed by not less than 300 electors, an additional polling place be appointed in the place mentioned in said petition. As the Bill professed to be one for the advantage and convenience of the electors, he thought it was but reasonable to concede to the requisition of 300 electors what was conceded to four or five magistrates.

Clause brought up, and read 1°.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."

SIR G. GREY

could not but think that the apprehensions of those who were afraid of gross partiality on the part of the magistrates were unfounded. He did not think that any practical purpose would be effected by the proposition of the hon. Member for Roscommon. If his proposition were agreed to, there might be a petition from 300 electors praying for one place, and another petition signed by 300 other electors praying for another place.

The House divided:—Ayes 33; Noes 108: Majority 75.

Further proceeding after the other Orders of the Day.

Adjourned at twelve minutes after Three o'clock till Five o'clock.

The House met at Five o'clock in the Old House.