HC Deb 07 May 1850 vol 110 cc1250-9

SIR R. BULKELEY moved for a Select Committee to investigate and report upon the contract for the conveyance of the mails between Kingstown and Holyhead. The House would recollect that some years ago a company was formed for the purpose of making a railway to Chester and Holyhead, and power was given to the company to possess steamboats. They constructed four steamboats, and Government thought fit to enter into competition with them as carriers. In the year 1849 the Government, however, announced that they were ready to receive tenders for the conveyance of the mails, by contract, between Kingstown and Holyhead; and it was to be supposed that the parties with whom they would enter into that contract would be the Chester and Holyhead Company, who had the boats. However, the directors of the Chester and Holyhead Company discovered that the Government were in communication with the City of Dublin Company; and finding that that company had agreed to carry the mails for 45,000l., and that the Government were about to close the contract with them for that sum, the Chester and Holyhead Company stepped in and offered to convey the mails for 35,000l. Instead of closing the contract with them for that sum, it was again opened for public competition; and the Chester and Holyhead Company, finding there was a strong feeling against them at the Admiralty, did not make a tender, but gave them to understand that they were ready to take the contract at 30,000l. This information was conveyed to the City of Dublin Company, and they ultimately closed the contract with Government for 25,000l. Now, he begged the House to consider what the consequences must be. The saving would not amount to 5,000l. a year; and the House should also understand that the City of Dublin Company, though ostensibly trading from the city of Dublin, were, in fact, a Liverpool Company. It was their interest to injure as much as possible the direct line to Holyhead. When it was proposed to make an Asylum Harbour at Holyhead, they were petitioners against it, and spent a considerable sum to prevent an undertaking of that kind competing with Liverpool. In the case of the Birkenhead Docks, no sooner had the promoters of that great scheme began to look for a return upon their capital than the Woods and Forests stepped in and claimed the shore grounds, almost to the entire destruction of the company; and, here again, after a railway company had spent upwards of 4,000,000l., including 160,000l. on the construction of steamboats, and just as they were about to reap the fruit of their undertaking, the Admiralty came in and adopted a company whose direct interest it was to injure and ruin, if possible, the interests of that railway. At present, any gentleman going to Ireland, left London at nine o'clock in the evening, and at half-past ten o'clock the same evening was in Kingstown-harbour; but if the finances of the Chester and Holyhead Company became low, they must take off the express trains, and then the only means of going to Ireland would be by the mail at night, sailing next morning from Holyhead, and arriving in Dublin in sixteen or seventeen hours. If a person objected to travel by night, he might go to Liverpool by day, and at seven o'clock he would find a boat belonging to the City of Dublin Company, ready to sail for Kingstown; but that boat, instead of going direct to Kingstown, would turn into Holyhead for a bag of letters. If it were the feeling of the House that the continuous line of communication between London and Dublin was of no consequence for private comfort, or the purposes of Government, then he could not expect their support; but if they thought it of consequence, both for the purposes of Government and the convenience of Irish Members, he hoped the House would give their support to his Motion. The fact was, that when the express boats were taken off, Dublin, in point of time, would not be a bit nearer to London than it was ten years ago.

MR. F. FRENCH

did not think that the Chester and Holyhead Company had any right to complain. If there was any cause of complaint, it was on the part of the Dublin Steam-packet Company. It was known that tenders would be taken by the Admiralty; but this company, that now complained, did not send in any tender. A tender was sent in by the Dublin Steam-packet Company, and everything was nearly fixed on, when, at the last moment, not for the purpose of making money, but for the purpose of thwarting the Dublin Steam-packet Company, a tender at a lower rate was sent in by the Chester and Holyhead Company. The Government said, they could not conclude the bargain, but would again open the contract for competition; and the Chester and Holyhead Company having again gone into the market, were under-bid by the Dublin Steam-packet Company; and now the hon. Baronet came forward, under these circumstances, with a complaint against Her Majesty's Government. With regard to the allegation that the Dublin Steam-packet Company was a Liverpool Company, he begged to say that the great proportion of the capital of the Dublin Company was held by Irishmen. There would be as rapid communication between London and Dublin by the boats of the Dublin Steam-packet Company as there could be if the contract were in the hands of the Chester and Holyhead Company.

SIR F. T. BARING

said, he came down to the House rather with an impression that this was a squabble between the two companies, but the hon. Baronet had made charges against the Government and the department over which he had the honour to preside. He thought that in all cases where there was a doubt thrown on a department that it had acted fairly and honestly in regard to a contract, so far from shrinking from inquiry, that inquiry ought to be sought, and in this case he should seek it. But in so doing, he trusted the House would not for a moment give credence to the statement which the hon. Baronet had made, and which he was sure he must have given from the instructions of other persons. He (Sir F. T. Baring) was cognisant only of the latter part of the transaction, but he could scarcely recognise it as the same from the statement of the hon. Baronet. The facts of the case transpired, some of them, before he was in office; but he apprehended the case stood thus: It was quite true that on the recommendation of the Committee the railway company had power given them to run steamers; but the Committee never intended that the Government should only employ those steamers, and that this company should have a monopoly of Government employment. What were the facts? The Government had steamers on the line before. The company competed with them, not they with the company. He was afraid it had not been a profitable business for the company. The company had offered by private arrangement with the Treasury to take the mails; but they asked so much that the Treasury would not accept the terms. Then came the report of the Committee of the House of Commons, which stated very properly that in all these cases they should have recourse to public competition. They put it up to public competition, and this company did not tender. There was only one tender, and Government had communication with the parties who made the tender, with the view of bringing them to lower terms; and there was a prospect of some agreement being come to, when the Chester and Holyhead company put in a fresh tender, offering to do it for a less sum. He did not think that was a fair way of conducting business. However, Government put it up to public competition again, and again the Chester and Holyhead Company were beat. Government took the lowest tender, and surely the company had no right to complain. He was sorry the company had so managed their business, and that their competition with the Government had not been profitable. It was their fault, and not the Government's. In granting the Committee, he begged it to be understood that the Committee could only be as against the Government, because, so far as the Dublin Steam Packet Company was concerned, they had entered into the agreement, and it would not be broken off. The parties were now actually in operation, and, of course, the faith of the Government was pledged, and the public faith should not be broken whatever might be the opinions of the unfortunate parties belonging to the other company. On looking round, he could not help thinking that there were parties in the House who had some connexion with the unfortunate company, and who were not quite disinterested in the course they would take.

MR. S. HERBERT

was glad to hear the explanation of his right hon. Friend, for it gave a different colour to what he had heard respecting this transaction. With respect to the proceeding when the first public competition took place, it was represented to him not as a public tender, but as a private negotiation between the Dublin Company and the Government. [Sir F. T. BARING: That negotiation was between the Government and the other company.] He was glad to say the statement of the right hon. Gentleman set that at rest, unless in Committee the contrary allegation should be proved. He doubted very much that the Dublin Steam Packet Company could perform the service at the amount agreed to, for if a company with vessels could not do it, much less could it be done by a company without vessels. The railway company had spent an enormous sum on their undertaking; they had spent also a large sum on the harbour of Holyhead, and, therefore, he conceived, had the first claim on the Government. The state of the case was one which required consideration to see how far the public interest would be promoted by the arrangement now made. As he understood it, the Dublin Steam Packet Company, having no ships, should procure ships to compete with the railway company, with four of the fastest steamers in the world. The railway company having ships, could still remain on the line, and what would happen would be this: the Dublin Company being obliged to carry the mails, the railway company would send a train with a light engine to carry the mails; another train with passengers would be despatched within a short time afterwards; the consequence would be that the Dublin Company's boat should take the mail without passengers, while the railway company's boat would convey the passengers. The result might be that both the companies would be ruined, and, between them both, the public service would not be advanced.

MR. B. OSBORNE

conceived that they were to take up this question, not as a local squabble between two companies, but as one affecting the interests of England and Ireland. He dared say the fact of this railway having been established would be one of the arguments used on Monday night next in support of the proposition for abolishing the Lord Lieutenancy. He thought the First Lord of the Admiralty had given a fair answer to the charge that had been made, and consequently with that part of the question he had nothing to do; but he must say this, that, considering the great inducements that were held out to this company to lay out their money on this line—not a line merely projected for private advantage, but a line in which great national interests were involved—there was an impression abroad that that company had not been treated with the consideration its merits demanded. They were also induced to lay out 200,000l. in improving the harbour of Holyhead. [An Hon. MEMBER: They have not paid a sixpence towards it yet.] The course that was being pursued towards them would prevent them from doing so, or from completing one of the grandest undertakings of modern times —the construction of the tubular bridge over the Menai Straits. The question whether they should arrive from London in Dublin in seventeen or in thirteen hours might be one of life or death in the latter country. A report also had got abroad that the Admiralty had let the docks at Holyhead to the Dublin Company for 200l a year, though the Chester and Holyhead Company would give 800l. or 1,000l. for it; but that would also be a question for the Committee. In consequence of the Government taking away the contract from the railway company, the railway would not be completed to the pier, and the conveyance of the mails would be delayed.

MR. MANGLES

should not have said one word had it not been for the taunt of the First Lord of the Admiralty, who said that he did not wonder at this debate, because he saw so many present in connexion with the railroad. He (Mr. Mangles) had also looked round, and he believed he was the only individual in the House who was, in the least degree, connected with the company; and, with the exception of his interest in the North Western Railway, he had not a shilling in the Holyhead Railway. The right hon Gentleman had stated the truth as far as he had gone, but he had only stated it partially. It was true that an offer was made by the Chester and Holyhead Company to carry the mails before it was put up to public competition—he was speaking without book, for ha came to the House unconscious of the Motion being about to come on, and he had brought no papers with him. The company said they would carry the mails, and asked, he believed, 35,000l. The Admiralty replied that the demand was exorbitant, and that the passage money nearly covered the expenses. But the Admiralty made no allowance for the prime cost of vessels—for their own were paid for by the country—for wear and tear, or for insurance, for they never insured; and they made their estimate as if they could carry the mails for the wages and coals. The company stated to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that they did not want to make any profit whatever on the communication across the Channel, but would be content with the profit derived from the railway; and that they would make an allowance for the passengers, and take the mails for an interest of 5 per cent upon their outlay; but the Admiralty refused, and were pluming themselves now on having saved 5,000l. a year, which they had done by retarding, by many hours, the communication with Ireland. This was a most singular instance of a commercial undertaking hating been brought to the brink of ruin by the injustice of Government. Even when the undertaking was commenced, its promoters told the Government that it would not pay per se, and that they would hot commence it unless they had the advantage of carrying the mails. Taking advantage of the railroad mania then raging, the Government screwed the contract down to 30,000l., which was a less sum than would now be awarded by arbitration. The next thing was this: Mr. Stephenson, the engineer, was planning a bridge of iron over that enormous strait, which would have cost 250,000l. Of course, being built on arches, the summit of which was on a level with the roadway, the spring of the arch was something lower than the centre. The Admiralty immediately said, "This cannot be; we cannot suffer any obstruction to the Menai Strait; you shall not cross the strait with a bridge at all, unless you cross it on a level." They supposed that impossible; but engineering talent had overcome that difficulty, and the strait was crossed on a level. The Government bad forced the company—not induced them, as the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex said—to build the tubular bridge, which would cost nearly 700,000l., instead of 250,000l. The company did not want to make any profit by the mail communication; they would have been satisfied with doing it at its bare cost. What they wanted Was to make a continuous communication between London and Dublin via Holyhead, the most rapid and efficient that was possible. Their interest in that respect is absolutely identical with that of the public. They had built boats, which Were now running on at that station at a pace, and doing the work in a manner, which would have been thought, a very few years ago, to be impossible upon scientific principles. The third thing was, the Government had said to the company, "You must contribute 200,000l. towards the harbour at Holyhead;" and, if they had not actually paid the money, it was only on account of their extreme poverty; they were unable to pay the money, but they were under an obligation to pay it, which the Government could enforce to-morrow. The Government, taking advantage of the circumstance of the company having a Bill before the House, had compelled them, nolens volens, to make that contribution; and when the correspondence came before the public, it would be found that the invitation so called was very much in the nature of compulsion. Throughout the whole of the transactions, the Government had never held out a helping hand to this great national undertaking—an undertaking which would, no doubt, shortly be urged as a ground why it was possible to save the country the expense of maintaining a Lord Lieutenant in Ireland. They had rather done their best to screw money out of them, and thus depress them; and every impartial man, who knew the circumstances of the case, and the way the company had been dealt with, expressed his astonishment and displeasure at the course the Government had pursued.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, it would have been much more convenient had a good deal of this discussion been postponed, or reserved for the Select Committee, by whom the matter could be fairly gone into. He had only three observations to make with reference to the statements of the hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House. The greater part of the transactions to which he referred had taken place five years ago. The whole of the arrangements with the Post Office, the whole arrangements as to the building of the bridge, had taken place, not during the existence of the present, but of a former Government. Was it not, then, far better that those transactions should be inquired into before a Committee, than that the Government should be asked to enter into explanations of things of which they knew nothing? The Committee would be granted, and the whole matter would come before them, for, of course, there could not be the slightest object in concealment. Then the facts would come out, though, perhaps, not quite in the shape in which the hon. Gentleman stated them. When he said that nothing in the world had been done by the Government towards giving the company a helping hand, he would ask him—referring only to transactions which had happened between himself (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) and the company—if he had not paid money to them which, though earned, was not actually due; and whether, on the other hand, he had not refrained from pressing them for money which was most indisputably due from them? If this were so. was it a proof that the Government had done nothing whatever to assist them? He would not go into the general attacks that had been made; instead of the House listening to contradictory statements on the one side and the other, he thought it would be better that the present debate should cease, and that the facts on both sides should be fully gone into before the proper tribunal.

MR. H. HERBERT

, as an Irish Member, wished to tender his thanks to the hon. Baronet who had brought forward this subject, which was most intimately connected with the prosperity of Ireland. Whether regarded in that light, or as a further step to an accelerated communication between England and America, it was most important that the adjudication should be the speediest, the safest, and the best that could be adopted.

SIR R. BULKELEY

said, he had heard nothing from the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty which materially answered his observations. Before Easter he had moved for certain papers on the subject; on more than one occasion he had jogged the memory of the Secretary to the Admiralty, who said that the papers would not take five minutes to copy; but up to that moment they had not been produced.

MR. COWPER

said, that the papers referred to were in the hands of the printer; and if the hon. Baronet had waited till they were laid before the House, he would have been spared the trouble of making many of the observations which he had made.

Motion agreed to. Select Committee appointed.

The House adjourned at a Quarter after Eight o'clock.