PRISON DISCIPLINE. (Hansard, 11 February 1850)

§ SIR G. GREY
moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the rules and discipline established in prisons in England and Wales. He said it would be recollected that late in the previous Session the hon. Member for Lambeth moved for a Committee to inquire into the merits of the specific plan which he desired to have adopted with respect to the treatment of prisoners. In the debate which took place on that occasion, an Amendment was moved by the hon. Member for South Leicestershire, for the purpose of making the inquiry general, instead of confining it to any particular plan. To such an inquiry, he (Sir G. Grey) consented; but, as it appeared improbable that it could be brought to a close during the short remainder of the Session, the Amendment was withdrawn on the understanding that at the commencement of the present Session he should himself move for a Committee in the same terms. The Motion before the House was not identical in terms with the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Leicestershire, some exception having been taken to those terms, but they were similar in substance, and embraced the same matter which was inquired into by the Committee of the House of Lords which sat several years ago on the same subject. He hoped that no objection would be offered to the Motion.

§ MR. C. PEARSON
said, that if it was to be understood that the object of this Motion was to take out of his hands the proposal which he had made last Session, he should take the sense of the House on the question. In that case he would not be compromised. He would, on an early day, submit to the House a specific Motion, unless in the mean time the right bon. Baronet consented to mould the terms of the inquiry so as to embrace his object. That there might be no mistake, he would repeat his former statement, that under a sound system of prison discipline the criminal class, which now cost the nation 450,000l. a year, might be made to maintain itself by its own industry, without inflicting injury on any class of the community. Give him a fairly selected Committee, and he was prepared to pledge himself that if that Committee did not report that his object was practicable, he should no longer desire to retain a seat in that House, being there wholly and solely for the purpose of endeavouring to convince the House that the result which he had stated would flow from the application of the principles on which he had taken his stand. He asked if the representative of one of the largest constituencies of this country was fairly treated in having the Motion taken out of his hands, when, in the agony of despair, on opposing the Motion he was invited to postpone it till the ensuing Session, because it was too late then to inquire into it. It was not too late now. He had brought, with him a large mass of papers—but it was not his intention to produce them—unless his statements were contravened. Talk about the system of discipline in gaols in England and Wales There was not in any one of them any regularity worthy the denomination of a system. A harlequin's jacket was of a consistent colour in comparison with the variety and discrepancies of the so-called systems which prevailed in this country. In some parts of the kingdom, the average annual expense of a prisoner was 6l. 1s. 10d.; in other parts, 50l. 2s.; and throughout the country the average was 29l. 10s. And then the cost of prison accommodation was, in some parts, 300l. for each prisoner; while, in other places, there were wooden prisons where the cost was 40l. each prisoner. He was ready and willing to form a portion of this Committee; but if elevated to that 705 post, he would not compromise a whit of his independence. He would go there for the purpose of getting all the facts he could, and then he would come to the House to get all the House would give him. He had been an agitator in his day, and it was his intention to be an agitator again; but he had suspended his functions as an agitator during the interval after he received from the right hon. Baronet the assurance that this subject should be inquired into, and to-day he met him here to redeem that pledge. But he scarcely expected such a performance from the liberal exponent of a Liberal Government. He expected that he should have had a resolution instructing a Committee to inquire into the subject he propounded, when it was first taken out of his hands. If the right hon. Baronet would enlarge the Motion, and give him an opportunity of concurring with him in the nomination of a few Members of the Committee, he should be satisfied; but if the right hon. Baronet folded himself in the dignity of his office, and chose to put down an independent Member, which, by official power and numbers, he might do, he (Mr. Pearson) would look forward to a future day when he should become stronger in the House, and struggle with him more successfully on the question.

§ MR. MONSELL
said, his objection to the appointment of the Committee was, that a very important portion of the empire was excluded from the benefit of this inquiry. He expressed his surprise that the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary should have made such a proposition to the House without including the gaols of Ireland. They were bound to apply some immediate remedy to the present most disastrous and disgraceful state of things in that country. He would, therefore, entreat of the right hon. Gentleman to add the word "Ireland" to his Motion.

§ SIR G. GREY
said, that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lambeth had been rather hard upon him. The fact was, that it was not he who took the Motion out of the hon. Gentleman's hands. The Amendment last Session was moved by the hon. Member for South Leicestershire, and a large majority of the House seemed to think that an inquiry specifically directed to the plan of the hon. Gentleman was inexpedient, and that it ought to be enlarged so as to include the state of the gaols generally. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that, in making the present Motion, he had no idea of doing anything to sacri- 706 fice the hon. Gentleman's independence; and that he should be glad to have the benefit of his services on the Committee, if he was willing to serve. With respect to the terms of the inquiry, he thought them large enough to enable the Committee to consider any improved system that might be brought before them; but he objected to add any specific direction imposing upon them the necessity of taking up the particular scheme of the hon. Gentleman. He would leave it to the discretion of the Committee to do so or not, as they might think proper. With respect to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Limerick, he admitted that the state of the Irish gaols was such as to render the application of a remedy desirable; but he was in hopes it might be possible, with the help of the reports of the inspectors, to apply a remedy without any reference to a Committee. He thought that if they added Ireland and Scotland to the terms of the Motion, the Committee would be so overwhelmed that it would be hopeless to look for a report from them during the present Session. The best way would be to limit the inquiry, in the first instance at all events, to England and Wales; and if the Committee got through its labours at any early period, he would then not object to extend the inquiry to Ireland. It might be desirable in that case, however, to alter the composition of the Committee a little.

§ LORD NAAS
thought that an inquiry into the state of the gaols in Ireland was absolutely necessary, and it might be right to add the names of certain Members who might aid in such inquiry. The average number of prisoners had increased enormously since 1847. He had no other course but to move that the word "Ireland" be added.

§ COLONEL DUNNE
seconded the Motion.

§ MR. ROBERT PALMER
said, he could have no objection to the inquiry being made into Reading gaol, as to the possibility of effecting any improvement in that prison, and he believed that such inquiry would be satisfactory to his brother magistrates; at the same time, he did not pledge himself, on their part or his own, as to any specific plan, but he thought that some amendment might be made in the system at Reading. He was glad that the subject was to be taken into consideration by a Committee of that House. He perfectly agreed with the right hon. Baronet 707 the Home Secretary, that if they were to have inquiry into the gaols of Ireland as well as Scotland, the labours of the Committee would be so onerous that they would not achieve their object.

SIR D. NORREYS
hoped the inquiry would be extended to Ireland. It was ascertained that the poor in Ireland preferred the gaols to the poorhouses, such was the System of discipline.

§ MR. HENLEY
thought the object of the Committee was to ascertain the best mode of prison discipline; and he did not see why, if there was a better gaol in Ireland or Scotland, the Committee should not inquire into this, as well as the best gaols in England. By the terms of reference, the Committee would not be empowered to take into consideration any case but such as might arise in England alone.

§ MR. H. A. HERBERT
said, he had been over Reading gaol, where the separate system prevailed, and he had been over the only gaol in Ireland where the same system obtained; and he must say that the discipline of Belfast gaol was superior to that of Reading gaol. There was, for instance, a system of hard labour combined with a separate system.

MR. M. O'CONNELL
hoped that the right hon. Baronet would do justice to Ireland. He hoped the inquiry would be extended to the gaols of Ireland.

§ MR. PEARSON
hoped the House would not deprive the Committee of the advantage of knowing what great improvements the system of prison discipline had attained in Ireland, and if the noble Lord who had moved the Amendment called for a division, he would give him his support.

§ SIR G. GREY
was anxious that the Committee should not be encumbered in their inquiries. If it were the sense of the House, however, that one Committee should inquire into the state of gaols throughout the united kingdom, he could have no objection. He should be happy to be a member of that Committee, and to give his best attention to the subject.

§ LORD C. HAMILTON
feared that by too widely extending the operations of the Committee, they would mar the efficiency of its inquiries. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to reserve the inquiry as to Ireland until another opportunity.