HC Deb 01 February 1850 vol 108 cc162-4
MR. HAYTER

moved that the Sessional Orders for the conduct of the business of the House be read and agreed to.

The Clerk at the table proceeded to read the Orders seriatim.

On Order 86,

Motion made, and Question proposed— That at the time fixed for the commencement of Public Business, on days on which Orders have precedence of Notices of Motions, and after the Notices of Motions have been disposed of on all other days, Mr. Speaker do direct the Clerk at the Table to read the Orders of the Day without any Question being put.

MR. HUME

said, that that Order was an alteration proposed by himself on the former practice of the House, under the impression that it would prove advantageous to the public service. But he found that great advantage had been taken of it to stop and impede the discussion of questions of the utmost importance, and many hon. Members had been deprived of the opportunity of bringing forward questions interesting to their constituents and important to the public at large. Another evil which had arisen from it was, that very great confusion in the transaction of public business prevailed at the end of the Session. After the two years' experience which they had had of this Order, he submitted to the House that it would be better to return to the old state of things, in which every Member had the opportunity of gaining the attention of the House. He should move, that the Order just read be deferred for a day or two, in order that the House might take his Motion into consideration.

MR. J. E. DENISON

said, in the Committee which sat for the arrangement of public business, no decision had been come to on this point, because the Order had emanated in the first instance from the House, and was under its consideration at the time of its sitting. He did not agree with the hon. Member for Montrose, that any disadvantage or inconvenience had arisen to the public service from its introduction. Under the former Order, great confusion and inconvenience had arisen from hon. Members never being able to know beforehand what subject would be discussed in the course of the evening. To correct that evil this Order was adopted, and the experience of two years had, in his opinion, fully proved its advantages. He trusted, therefore, that the House would abide by this Sessional Order.

MR. HENLEY

suggested that the hon. Member for Montrose should defer the matter until another occasion.

MR. HUME

That was his Motion. He wished merely to postpone the consideration of the Order.

LORD J. RUSSELL

thought that the present arrangement had been productive of very great convenience. Under the former practice, any hon. Member, when the Order of the Day was read, had the power of introducing any Motion relating to any other subject. And it was quite true, as his hon. Friend the Member for Malton had stated, that it was utterly impossible for hon. Members to know beforehand what would be the subject for discussion in the course of the evening: for whatever was the Order of the Day, Motions might be brought on respecting Canada, Australia, or any other subject wholly different from that to which the Order of the Day referred. The House found the inconvenience arising from this practice to be so great, that it resolved to put an end to it, and they adopted this Sessional Order, under which the House had, during the last Session more particularly, got through a great deal of business in a satisfactory manner in a remarkably short space of time, without any impediment being placed in the way of hon. Members bringing forward Motions of public importance. With this experience of the benefit accruing from this Sessional Order, he thought that hon. Members would do well to maintain it.

MR. HERRIES

thought the rule might be postponed for a few days for future consideration. He should support the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose.

SIR R. H. INGLIS

hoped that no time would be wasted in the discussion of the Order. He thought it was perhaps rather early for the House to discuss its advantages or disadvantages. It was not a new measure which the House was called upon to adopt on the instant. It was a measure Which had worked well in the judgment of nine-tenths of the Members of the House who took an active part in the public business. He hoped that the question would be at once decided.

MR. HORSMAN

said, that he well recollected what took place when this subject was under discussion on a former occasion. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose proposed a series of resolutions, the effect of which that hon. Gentleman had not well understood beforehand. In fact their effect had taken the hon. Member completely by surprise. The hon. Member had proposed them as an experiment, and he now requested the House to consider whether they had worked well. With regard to what had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Government, he (Mr. Horsman) did not think that the business of the House had been conducted in a satisfactory manner; he considered that it had been most unsatisfactory.

MR. BROTHERTON

thought that the experiment which had been tried during the last two years had worked very well, and to the advantage both of the public business and of hon. Members.

MR. HUME

wished before the House divided to say a few words in reply. His object had been not to thwart but to promote the public business of the country. He considered it was one of the chief duties of the House to give every facility to the people to make their complaints in that House. But he found that the withdrawal first of Thursday, then of Wednesday nights from the Members, for Motion nights, had placed the whole of the time of the House at the disposal of the Ministry, from whose neglect a great deal of business was required to be done at the latter end of the Session in a most hurried and therefore defective manner. He, therefore, wished to have an opportunity of laying before hon. Members in a more detailed manner the inconveniences which had resulted from the adoption of this order. The objection of which the noble Lord had made mention, of not knowing what subject would be discussed, he (Mr. Hume) was prepared to meet by a Motion that hon. Members should be required to give previous notice of their intention to move anything on the Order of the Day.

Motion made and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided:—Ayes 81; Noes 151: Majority 70.

List of the AYES.
Adderley, C. B. Bremridge, R.
Anstey, T. C. Bright, J.
Baillie, H. J. Broadwood, H.
Baldock, E. H. Bromley, R.
Banks, G. Brooke, Lord
Bass, M. T. Buller, Sir J. Y.
Berkeley, hon. G. F. Burghley, Lord
Best, J. Buxton, Sir E. N.
Blewitt, R. J. Chatterton, Col.
Christopher, R. A. Maunsell, T. P.
Clive, H. B. Milnes, R. M.
Cobden, R. Mowatt, F.
Codrington, Sir W. Mullings, J. R.
Colvile, C. R. Mundy, W.
Conolly, T. Neeld; J.
Disraeli, B. Newport, Visct.
Drummond, H. Noel, hon. G. J.
Farnham, E. B. O'Connor, F.
Fellowes, E. Packe, C. W.
Fox, W J. Portal, M.
Fuller, A. E. Repton, G. W. J.
Galway, Visct. Ricardo, J. L.
Gibson, rt. hon. T. M. Salwey, Col.
Goddard, A. L. Sidney, Ald.
Granby, Marq. of Smith, J. B.
Granger, T. C. Somerset, Capt.
Harris, hon. Capt. Spooner, R.
Henley, J. W. Stafford, A.
Henry, A. Stanford, J. F.
Herries, rt. hon. J. C. Stuart, J.
Hodgson, W. N. Thompson, Col.
Hood, Sir A. Thompson, Ald.
Jackson, W. Tollemache, J.
Kershaw, J. Trollope, Sir J.
King, hon. P. J. L. Waddington, D.
Knox, Col. Walmsley, Sir J.
Loveden, P. Walsh, Sir J. B.
Lowther, hon. Col. Williams, J.
Lushington, C. Worcester, Marq. of
Mackenzie, W. F. TELLERS.
Meagher, T. Hume, J.
Manners, Lord G. Horsman, E.
List of the NOES.
Adair, R. A. S. Egerton, Sir P.
Alcock, T. Ellice, rt. hon. E.
Arkwright, G. Ellis, J.
Armstrong, Sir A. Elliot, hon. J. E.
Bailey, J. jun. Estcourt, J. B. B.
Baines, rt. hon. M. T. Evans, W.
Barnard, E. G. Fagan, W.
Barrington, Visct. Farrer, J.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Fitzroy, hon. H.
Bernal, R. Foley, J. H. H.
Bernard, Visct. Fordyce, A. D.
Blackall, S. W. Forster, M.
Bouverie, hon. E. P. French, F.
Boyle, hon. Col. Frewen, C. H.
Bramston, T. W. Glyn, G. C.
Brown, W. Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Cardwell, E. Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Carew, W. H. P. Greenall, G.
Childers, J. W. Grenfell, C. P.
Clay, Sir W. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Grey, R. W.
Clifford, H. M. Gwyn, H.
Cocks, T. S. Hallyburton, Ld. J. F. G.
Coke, hon. E. K. Hamilton, J. H.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Harris, R.
Cowan, C. Hastie, A.
Cubitt, W. Hawes, B.
Currie, H. Hayes, Sir E.
Dalrymple, Capt. Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.
Deeds, W. Headlam, T. E.
Denison, E. Heald, J.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Heneage, G. H. W.
Drumlanrig, Visct. Heyworth, L.
Duckworth, Sir J. T. B. Hodges, T. L.
Duncan, Visct. Hogg, Sir J. W.
Duncan, G. Howard, Lord E.
Duncuft, J. Howard, P. H.
Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D. Humphery, Ald.
Inglis, Sir R. H. Pennant, hon. Col.
Jermyn, Earl Pigott, F.
Jervis, Sir J. Pilkington, J.
Jocelyn, Visct. Plumptre, J. P.
Kildare, Marq. Power, Dr.
Labouchere, rt. hon. H. Pugh, D.
Langston, J. H. Ricardo, O.
Lascelles, hon. E. Russell, Lord J.
Lascelles, hon. W. S. Russell, F. C. H.
Legh, G. C. Sandars, J.
Lewis, rt. hon. Sir T. F. Scrope, G. P.
Lewis, G. C. Shelburne, Earl of
Lindsay, hon. Col. Sheridan, R. B.
Littleton, hon. E. R. Smith, rt. hon. R. V.
Loch, J. Smyth, J. G.
Lygon, hon. Gen. Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.
Mackinnon, W. A. Sotheron, T. H. S.
Maitland, T. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Mangles, R. D. Staunton, Sir G. P.
Martin, J. Strickland, Sir G.
Masterman, J. Stuart, H.
Matheson, A. Tenison, E. K.
Matheson, Col. Thornely, T.
Maule, rt. hon. F. Trelawny, J. S.
Milner, W. M. E. Tufnell, H.
Milton, Visct. Tynte, Col. C. J. K.
Molesworth, Sir W. Vane, Lord H.
Monsell, W. Vivian, J. H.
Mostyn, hon. E. M. L. Walpole, S. H.
Naas, Lord Walter, J.
Ord, W. Welby, G. E.
Oswald, A. Whitmore, T. C.
Pakington, Sir J. Willyams, H.
Palmer, R. Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.
Palmerston, Visct. Wyville, M.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. Young, Sir J.
Peel, Col. TELLERS.
Pelham, hon. D. A. Denison, J. E.
Pendarves, E. W. W. Brotherton, J.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

MR. HUME

said, he was aware that there were many inconveniences attending the old system, and that under the present system the greatest possible opportunities were afforded for impeding public discussion; and the time would come, if they went on much longer as they were doing now, when none but Ministers would have the opportunity of claiming the attention of the House. At the present moment, if anything disagreeable to Ministers was coming on, they adopted the means of preventing a House being formed, and Gentlemen who had no communication with the Ministers had no opportunity of bringing forward their complaints. These were the reasons why he was anxious this Order should not pass; he would not be denominated factious by taking another division. He bowed to the decision of the House; he would fight again and again against such contraction of popular rights. He thought he had reason to know that the House was encroaching rapidly on the rights of the people of this country.

The remaining Sessional Orders were then agreed to.