HC Deb 18 April 1850 vol 110 cc532-7

Order for Committee read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."


hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman would not attempt to force on the Bill at this late hour (a quarter to 12 o'clock). He had been expecting the Bill to come on at an early period of the night.


said, that the present regulations of the House were such, that it was almost impossible for a private Member to proceed with a Bill. He believed it was for the convenience of the House to proceed. He believed that a large portion of the House had attended with a view to this question. The Amendments were not a new subject, but those on which most men had made up their minds, and it was very easy for the House to come to a vote.


begged leave to move that this debate be now adjourned.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the debate be now adjourned."


said, that really the House ought to be prepared to decide one way or the other.


thought it was not doing justice to the motives which actuated those on the other side, in wishing for an adjournment, as if no question was to be discussed which had not been discussed already. The contrary was the fact. Several important principles arose in Committee which would require full consideration on the part of those who had given notice of Amendment. He had given a notice that went to the exemption of the Established Churches of England and Scotland from the operation of this measure, and it would be his duty in pressing that Motion to occupy the House a considerable time.


said, that he had a Motion that Scotland be excluded from the operation of the Bill. This question which he had undertaken to move, was the only question upon which he could really say that he believed Scotland was almost unanimous. He believed there did not exist a difference of opinion to any extent on the subject, and Scotland would be disappointed if the matter would be taken without full discussion.


hoped the Bill would not be pressed forward at that late hour. He, too, had an Amendment, similar to the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War.


said, that he also had an Amendment to propose, for the exclusion of Ireland from the Bill; and believing that the people of Ireland were unanimous for exemption from the operation of the measure, he should support the Amendment.


hoped that the right hon. and learned Gentleman would withdraw his Bill for the present. This measure was said to have been brought forward for the advantage of the poorer and humbler classes. He denied that allegation. Looking at the former Act, which was precedent to the present Bill, to the great outlay and expenditure that had been incurred to carry out the object of this Bill, he believed that the Bill had not been brought forward for the benefit of the poorer and humbler classes, but to put certain persons of a higher grade in a better position than that they now occupied. It was impossible that all the expenditure could have been defrayed by poor people. He could not mention names, but he knew who had paid the cost.


said, it appeared to him that the House was in a state of quite sufficient attention and vigilance to enable them to go on with the Bill. They were not called upon to conclude the debate the same night. If hon. Gentlemen on the other side were satisfied that their numbers were full, they would have no anxiety as to the result of ft division. Every hour saved was an hour gained in the progress of the Bill, and he thought his right hon. and learned Friend justified in pressing on the Committee at that comparatively early period of the evening.


said, that he would join issue with the hon. and learned Member who had spoken. He did not think that any advantage would be gained by their going into Committee at that late hour. He held, with the hon. and learned Member for Abingdon, that they should not go into Committee.


agreed that no advantage would be gained by their going into Committee at that hour.


said, he was in ex- actly the same position as other hon. Members, in having been in unbroken attendance in the House for many hours, and he had not received the slightest intimation till just before the Amendment was moved, that there was any intention to oppose the Speaker leaving the chair. He trusted they would allow the Committee to go on; otherwise he must divide.


suggested that the House might go into Committee, but without taking the discussion, which might be postponed.


said, his object was to prevent the Bill going on at that late hour. He had no objection to his right hon. and learned Friend taking a stage, or any desire to oppose the Speaker leaving the chair, on the understanding that there was a general feeling in the House not to go on with the discussion at that period of the night.


said, that if the House went into Committee, the Bill would be rediscussed when it came again before them. He had no objection whatever to go into Committee on the understanding that there should be no discussion.


objected to any compromise or understanding, and would Support the Amendment.

The House divided:—Ayes 89; Noes 152: Majority 63.

List of the AYES.
Anson, Visct. Edwards, H.
Arkwright, G. Farnham, E. B.
Bagot, hon. W. Farrer, J.
Beresford, W. Fellowes, E.
Bernard, Visct. Fergus, J.
Best, J. Forbes, W.
Blackstone, W. S. Fordyce, A. D.
Boldero, H. G. Grace, O. D. J.
Bramston, T. W. Greenall, G.
Bruce, C. L. C. Greene, T.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Grogan, E.
Burrell, Sir C. M. Gwyn, H.
Carew, W. H. P. Hale, R. B.
Chatterton, Col. Hall, Sir B.
Christopher, R. A. Halsey, T. P.
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Hastie, A.
Clive, H. B. Hayes, Sir E.
Cocks, T. S. Heneage, G. H. W.
Colvile, C. R. Henley, J. W.
Cowan, C. Hildyard, R. C.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Hildyard, T. B. T.
Deedes, W. Hodges, T. L.
Divett, E. Hodgson, W. N.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Hope, A.
Duckworth, Sir J. T. B. Hornby, J.
Duff, G. S. Jones, Capt.
Duncan, G. Lockhart, A. E.
Duncuft, J. Lockhart, W.
Dunne, Col. Mackenzie, W. F.
Du Pre, C. G. M'Neill, D.
Manners, Lord J. Seymer, H. K.
March, Earl of Sibthorp, Col.
Monsell, W. Simeon, J.
Naas, Lord Stanley, hon. E. H.
Napier, J. Stanton, W. H.
Neeld, J. Tenison, E. K.
Oswald, A. Tyrell, Sir J. T.
Palmer, R. Verner, Sir W.
Palmer, R. Villiers, Visct.
Peel, F. Walpole, S. H.
Plowden, W. H. C. Wegg-Prosser, F. R.
Plumptre, J. P. West, F. R.
Portal, M. Willoughby, Sir H.
Renton, J. C. TELLERS.
Richards, R. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Rushout, Capt. Thesiger, Sir F.
List of the NOES.
Adair, H. E. Frewen, C. H.
Adair, R. A. S. Galway, Visct.
Aglionby, H. A. Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Archdall, Capt. M. Glyn, G. C.
Armstrong, R. B. Goddard, A. L.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Greene, J.
Bagshaw, J. Grenfell, C. W.
Baines, rt. hon. M. T. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T. Hamilton, Lord C.
Baring, T. Hanmer, Sir. J.
Barnard, E. G. Harris, R.
Barrington, Visct. Hatchell, J.
Bass, M. T. Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.
Bellew, R. M. Headlam, T. E.
Berkeley, hon. H. F. Heald, J.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Heneage, E.
Blackall, S. W. Henry, A.
Blake, M. J. Herbert, H. A.
Blewitt, R. J. Heywood, J.
Booth, Sir R. G. Heyworth, L.
Boyle, hon. Col. Hobhouse, T. B.
Bright, J. Hollond, R.
Broadwood, H. Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Brocklehurst, J. Howard, Sir R.
Brockman, E. D. Hudson, G.
Bromley, R. Hughes, W. B.
Brotherton, J. Hume, J.
Carter, J. B. Jervis, Sir J.
Caulfeild, J. M. Johnson, Sir J.
Chaplin, W. J. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Christy, S. King, hon. P. J. L.
Clay, J. Lawless, hon. C.
Clifford, H. M. Lewis, G. C.
Cobden, R. Lindsay, hon. Col.
Cockburn, A. J. E. Locke, J.
Coke, hon. E. K. Macnaghten, Sir E.
Copeland, Ald. Mahon, Visct.
Crowder, R. B. Mangles, R. D.
Denison, E. Marshall, W.
Duff, J. Martin, S.
Duke, Sir J. Masterman, J.
Dundas, Adm. Matheson, Col.
Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Ellis, J. Melgund, Visct.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Milner, W. M. E.
Evans, W. Milnes, R. M.
Fagan, W. Moffatt, G.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Morgan, H. K. G.
Filmer, Sir E. Morris, D.
Foley, J. H. H. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.
Forster, M. Mulgrave, Earl of
Fox, W. J. Muntz, G. F.
Freestun, Col. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Ogle, S. C. H. Smyth, J. G.
Parker, J. Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.
Patten, J. W. Spearman, H. J.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. Stuart, Lord D.
Pelham, hon. D A. Stuart, Lord J.
Pilkington, J. Talbot, C. R. M.
Power, N. Thicknesse, R. A.
Price, Sir R. Thompson, Col.
Rawdon, Col. Thompson, Ald.
Ricardo, J. L. Thornely, T.
Ricardo, O. Tollemache, hon. F. J.
Rice, E. R. Townshend, Capt.
Robartes, T. J. A. Walmsley, Sir J.
Romilly, Col. Watkins, Col. L.
Romilly, Sir J. Wawn, J. T.
Rumbold, C. E. Westhead, J. P. B.
Russell, hon. E. S. Willcox, B. M.
Russell, F. C. H. Williams, J.
Salwey, Col. Wilson, J.
Scholefield, W. Wilson, M.
Slaney, R. A. Wyld, J.
Smith, J. A. TELLERS.
Smith, M. T. Wortley, J. S.
Smith, J. B. Hill, Lord M.

Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."


then moved the adjournment of the House.

Whereupon Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."


protested against the suspension of public business through the course taken by the opponents of the Bill; and he asked whether it was calculated to raise the House in the estimation of the country?


understood that his right hon. and learned Friend only proposed to take one stage, that of the Speaker leaving the chair, and to undertake not to proceed with the measure in Committee. Under these circumstances he thought there was no necessity for pressing the Motion.


said, the right hon. and learned Gentleman would gain either something or nothing by the stage. If he were to gain anything by it, he (Mr. Mackenzie) would oppose it; but if he gained nothing, why press on the Bill?


said, nobody was more opposed to the measure than he was; but it was only fair to place the right hon. and learned Gentleman in the position he would have been in had the Bill come on at an earlier stage.


was not satisfied with any arrangement for a stage being gained by Mr. Speaker leaving the chair. The more the Bill was discussed the more objectionable would it prove to be, and he was unwilling to lose any opportunity of making its objectionable principles apparent.


urged the House to consent to this stage, observing that there would be a full opportunity of discussing the principle upon the third reading.


thought the cause of those who, like himself, opposed the Bill, would hardly he strengthened by the course which was taken in moving adjournments. They must lead to an impression that their object was obstruction rather than discussion.


remarked that the concessions of his two hon. and learned Friends would not have been made at eight o'clock, and they had been addressed to the House solely from a conviction that the hour was too advanced to proceed with the discussion. Had his right hon. and learned Friend gained or advanced a single step? He had not; nor would he after the division. Under these circumstances it would be better for him to withdraw the proposition for going into Committee.


said, he was determined to oppose the Bill at every stage and by all means in his power, for a more objectionable measure he had never known introduced into that House. Upon his honour he had a stronger feeling against this Bill, and greater pleasure in voting against it, than against any other ever brought before Parliament. With these feelings he should oppose it at every point which the forms of the House would allow.

The House divided:—Ayes 52; Noes 147: Majority 95.

Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."

MR. FORBES moved the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the debate be now adjourned."

The House divided:—Ayes 48; Noes 133: Majority 85.


appealed to the House to allow the Bill to be committed pro formâ, promising to defer discussion to a future occasion.


deprecated the opposition with which the right hon. and learned Member had been encountered, but thought that it would be futile to persevere further with the Bill that evening.

Debate adjourned till Thursday 16th of May.

The House adjourned at One o'clock.