§ The House then went into Committee of Supply; Mr. Bernal in the chair.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, it now became his duty to bring under the consideration of the Committee the estimates for the Ordnance service for the present year. One of the principal difficulties connected with the discussion of these estimates on former occasions had arisen from the vague statements which had been made by hon. Members with reference to the conduct of the department, and which bad been so varied and conflicting that it had been difficult for those who had occupied the station he had the honour to fill to meet such general statements in a manner satisfactory to the House. He was happy to say, however, that that difficulty no longer existed. These estimates bad been submitted to the consideration of a Select Committee, and the hon. Members who had sat upon that Committee, as well as those who had taken the trouble to dive into the largo blue hook containing the evidence given before them, would be able so to frame their inquiries as to elicit clear and explicit answers. He rejoiced that this was the case, because he should now feel far less difficulty and embarrassment in answering any charges that might be made, or affording any explanations that might be required. He might be allowed to remind the Committee of the circumstances under which the Select Committee to which he had referred was appointed. In 1848 a reverse had come over the affairs of this country; it had fallen from a state of high prosperity into one of considerable depression; the public expenses had largely increased, while the finances had diminished; and it became apparent that either the expenditure must be reduced, or some extraordinary means must he taken to meet the increased expenditure. The increase which had taken place in the Army, Navy, and Ordnance estimates naturally attracted the attention of those hon. Members who took an interest 22 in the subject. In a matter of this kind, however, no one could be more deeply interested than the Government themselves, for they were the parties most likely to suffer from a careless expenditure of money, and from unnecessary demands upon that House. He thought, therefore, that the Government had with a very wise discretion consented to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into these estimates. A period of twenty years had elapsed since such an inquiry had taken place; and at that time his noble Friend Lord Hardinge had the chief conduct of the business of the department, and carried out many improvements which increased its efficiency, and were, at the same time, advantageous to the public. He conceived that the Government had acted wisely and judiciously in consenting to the appointment of the Committee, because he thought it very desirable that at stated periods some unprejudiced persons should be called to give their opinions upon the conduct of such public departments, and afford the benefit of their advice to the country as well as to the departments. The Government, conscious of their own integrity, knew that such an inquiry would show that they had endeavoured to maintain the best interests of the country, and they were not disappointed by the result of the labours of the Committee, which had been laid before the House in a most able report, containing various recommendations which it had been the duty of the Government to consider, and it would be for the Committee to say whether they had been carried out to as full an extent as was desirable. To those recommendations it would be necessary for him to make frequent allusions in the course of his statement. The whole amount required for the service of the Ordnance department for the year 1850 was 2,434,417l.; in 1849 it was 2,632,601l.; so that there was a diminution in the present year of 198,184l. He would, however, ask the Committee to look at the estimates of preceding years. In 1848 the amount of the estimate was 2,992,143l., so that the difference between that estimate and the one he would submit to the House was no less than 557,726l. The increase in the Ordnance estimates commenced in 1845, when the total estimate was 2,287,716l., being an increase on the estimate of 1844 of 287,758l. In 1846 there was an increase of 430,218l.; in 1847, of 144,547l.; and, in 1848, of 127,644l.; making the total increase upon 23 those four years 990,167l. This certainly appeared a formidable increase, but the House must bear in mind, that if blame was attributable to any one for this large increase, it did not attach to the Government alone. It would be remembered that, from 1835 to 1845, charges were repeatedly made against the Government that they did not sufficiently attend to the security and defence of the country. Those charges were made not only by hon. Members connected with the Army and Navy, who might be supposed to be somewhat prejudiced and biassed in favour of their own professions, but also by independent Members; and, therefore, a portion of any blame must be borne by the House itself. He did not think the House would be so inconsistent, so weak, or so dishonest, as to disclaim all participation in this increased expenditure; but he was certain, that neither the late Government, with whom the increase originated, nor the present Government, by whom it had been continued up to 1848, would shrink from the responsibility of having recommended the House to augument the naval and military forces of the nation, to provide the equipments necessary for those forces, and also to adopt such measures as might be necessary for the protection and security of the seaports and dockyards. It was for these objects that the largely increased expenditure of 990,000l. was incurred, and he believed those objects had been in a great measure accomplished. But if the increase of expenditure had been rapid, so had the decrease in the two last years—for in those years a reduction of upwards of 557,000l. had been effected; leaving the total increase on the expenditure of 1844 somewhat more than 432,000l. It might be said, "Why maintain this increase when the objects for which it was incurred have been accomplished?" But he would ask the House to look at the circumstances. One of the main objects of the increase was to place the Ordnance military corps in an efficient state. That corps consisted of the Artillery, Engineers, and Sappers and Miners, and between 1846 and the present time there had been an increase of about 5,000 men, including additions of 4,200 men to the Artillery, 910 men to the Sappers and Miners, and a number of officers to the Engineers. The difference between the estimate for the present year, and that for 1845, would be about 146,000l.; and this increase of 24 force would, he thought, more than account for the increase of the Estimates. The Committee must also remember, however, that there were other services for which it was considered necessary to provide. The armament of the Navy was incomplete; there were various points on the coast open to assailants which it was necessary to protect; and additions had been made to the Army which rendered it necessary to provide additional barrack accommodation and supplies. He thought it would be admitted that the Ordnance Department was one which it was essential to the interests of the country to maintain in a state of efficiency, whether during peace or war; but the establishment which they possessed previously to 1845 had been quite inadequate to the demands of the service in this country and the colonies, and on that ground it had been considered most desirable to increase it. Objections had been made by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose to the amount of our naval and military force; and this year he had brought Motions forward for their reduction; but the House was of opinion that they were required as proposed by the Government. On this ground it was considered necessary that the force should be rendered efficient, a decision which, of course, involved additional expense. The opinion of Sir H. D. Ross, who was examined before the Committee, as well as the report of the Committee itself, would satisfy the House as to the necessity for the increase. Sir H. D. Ross stated, that the insufficiency of numbers in the artillery, combined with the demands of the service, rendered it impossible to complete the education of the men; and that according to the testimony of the military authorities, artillery had become of increased importance, in consequence of the progress of military science and tactics, and that the British Army possessed a far less number of that highly essential arm of the service in proportion to their number than foreign armies. They had also had very convincing evidence within the last two years, during the war in India, of the advantage and necessity of a powerful artillery; and though he was not one of those who thought that all future contests were to be decided by artillery alone, he did regard artillery as a powerful adjunct to an Army, without which any commander would feel himself comparatively powerless. He hoped it would be a sufficient answer to those who complained of the increase of this force, if 25 it could be shown that that increase had been made for the purpose of rendering thoroughly efficient a force which was acknowledged on all hands to be one which it was most desirable for this country to maintain, and which could not be raised on any sudden emergency. The same observation applied to the corps of Engineers, a body of men with whom superior scientific education needed to be combined with, and confirmed by military discipline and experience. Every Gentleman, he felt sure, would acknowledge that this was a force which it concerned the public advantage very intimately to retain in the most efficient possible condition. Having made these general remarks, he would now proceed to the particular heads of the Estimates. The first recommendation made by the Committee was, that in future the number of men required should be a distinct vote, and therefore in the resolution which he should place in the Chairman's hands the number of men required would be stated. The first vote proposed would accordingly be for the pay, allowances, and contingencies for 14,569 officers, noncommissioned officers, and men of the several Ordnance corps and departments, which it was proposed to maintain for service at home and abroad—712,755l. In 1849–50 this estimate was 711,895l., showing an apparent increase this year of 860l., while, last year, the number of men voted was 14,123, showing, in like manner, an apparent increase this year of 446 men; but he had to explain that last year 415 non-commissioned officers and men, Royal Sappers and Miners, employed in surveys, were not included in the number, whereas, this year, although the charge was not a military charge, the men were borne on the strength of the corps. The further addition this year consisted of twenty-two lieutenants, whom it had been deemed essential to add to the establishment. The Committee recommended that no change should be made in the force of the Ordnance military corps without the sanction of the House, and this recommendation would be acted upon in future years. The difference in the amount to be voted this year was accounted for in the pay of the additional lieutenants. There was also an increase this year under the head of "Movement of Troops" of 6,500l as compared with 4,750l. last year; but under the head "Recruiting" there was a diminution of 18,154l., as compared 26 with 20,403l. last year. The Committee next, in reference to the recommendation of the Commission of 1828, that the medical department of the Ordnance should be united with that of the Army, stated that it had been represented to them that this change would greatly diminish the comforts of the soldiers in the Ordnance service, without effecting any material saving. In the summary of their report, however, the Committee recommended that there should be a reduction effected in this department, and this recommendation had been carried out to the utmost practicable extent. The office of director general of the medical department bad been abolished; the new establishment, as reduced in amount of cost from 10,202l. to 9,829l., had been submitted to the Treasury, had received their sanction, and was now on as low a scale as the wants of the service would permit. The other part of the question, the amalgamation of the department altogether with that of the Army, had been most maturely considered; but, certainly, it appeared that great objections were felt to this change. Whether these objections arose from old habits or prejudices on the part of men long connected with the service, or from a well-founded idea that the comforts of the men in the Ordnance service would not be so well attended to, he could not then decide. The question was under the serious consideration of his right hon. Friend the Secretary at War. When he had formed his opinion upon it, and came to a decision, he was satisfied that in carrying out that decision, his right hon. Friend would meet with the cordial co-operation of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Anglesey) at the head of the Ordnance department to the utmost extent that should be at once calculated for the public advantage and for the well-being and comfort of the force. The Committee recommended that the Royal Sappers and Miners should be more extensively employed in the survey of our colonies. Before this recommendation could be adopted it must be ascertained that the service suggested was actually necessary, and it must further be borne in mind that, should this corps be so employed in our colonies, it would still be a question whether the country was to bear the expense, or the colonies. The recommendation of the Committee, that the system practised in regard to the Army should be applied to the Ordnance military corps—namely, that any change in the strength of this corps 27 should be officially communicated to the Master General by the Secretary of State, and that the amount of the force should be separately brought under the notice of the House of Commons in a distinct vote submitted for its approval, he had already referred to as having been adopted. The next vote was, for Commissariat and barrack supplies for Her Majesty's land forces, and great coats and clothing for the Army, &c., 273,837l., the estimate last year having been 301,650l., so that there was a diminution this year of 24,813l. This diminution was chiefly in the article of forage, which exhibited a decrease of more than 15,000l as compared with the estimate of last year; and there were other reductions under the heads of coals, candles, palliasse straw, &c. Under the head of "Purchase and repair of barrack and hospital furniture and bedding at home and abroad," there was a decreased vote of 71,638l.; therefore, as compared with 78,000l last year, exhibiting a diminution of 6,462l. on this vote, arising chiefly from less being required for the class of old pensioners. In reference to the troops stationed in Ireland, the Committee objected to the greater expense of the commissariat system lately introduced, and recommended a return to the system of provisioning those troops previously in operation. The recommendation, however, had not been acted upon, and the commissariat department established in Ireland was still retained there. It was required for the relief of the destitute poor of that country; and so long as it was retained, there would not probably be much economy in reverting to the former system of provisioning the troops and supplying the cavalry with forage. The answer, however, given by the department to the Treasury showed that large reductions had been made in the establishment, lessening the expense one half. The question would come under the consideration of the Commission now sitting on the Army and Navy administration, and the Government upon their report would be better able to decide whether it should be retained or not for their service. The next vote was salaries and contingencies of the Ordnance Offices at the Tower and Pall-mall, 86,961l., as compared with 85,881l. last year, exhibiting an increase of 1,080l. He regretted that this increase should have been found necessary, and the more so that these establishments had been already made peculiarly the subject of remark and of complaint as 28 to their cost; but he could assure the Committee that the increase had not been made without the most mature and anxious consideration, and with the closet reference to the public interest. He would beg of the Committee to recollect that in 1848 the charge under this head was 95,564l., so that the charge for 1850 exhibited, as compared with that year, a decrease of 8,603l. The increase had arisen from the increase in the salaries of persons in the surveyor-general's branch, in the store branch, and in the inspector-general of fortifications' branch. But, on the other hand, it was to be recollected that the number of persons employed in this department had been, since 1828, reduced from 303 to 218, and the charge for the same period from 101,971l. to 96,961l.; so that he thought the Government should have credit for having gradually brought the cost of this department to the lowest point compatible with the actual acquirements of the public service. There was, under the head of postage, an additional charge this year of 500l. making the total postage charge 8,000l., a charge itself altogether recent, and which accounted for a large item of the amount. As regarded the Ordnance itself, the Committee reported their opinion that the constitution of the office, the division of the subordinate departments, and the mode of transacting business, were capable of considerable improvements, and they ought to be revised by the Government. They had, however, abstained from proposing any scheme for the future constitution of the Ordnance, because they believe that any improvement in the practical working of the office could only be effected by the Executive Government, and by the co-operation of persons familiar with the details of business now transacted by the Ordnance. The recommendation of the Committee with reference to the office of store account examiner had been carried into effect as nearly as possible. When he, in 1835–6, filled the office of storekeeper to the Ordnance, he had strongly advocated this arrangement, and it would have been then carried into effect but for the objections which stood in the way. Now, however, it had been decided to place the office of store account examiner under the surveyor-general, and other arrangements had been adopted in this particular department which would materially facilitate the transaction of business there, and ultimately, he hoped, give the means of reduction of expenditure. 29 The recommendation of the Committee for the amalgamation of the offices of the Surveyor General and of the Clerk of the Ordnance was being carried out; at least, the thing was in a transition state; and he was happy to find that even the persons belonging to the departments themselves, who had hitherto objected to the arrangement, were now ready to acknowledge that the alteration would be productive of much good to the public service in the facilitation of business. There was another most important recommendation of the Committee with reference to the manner of keeping the store accounts, which the Government had taken into most careful consideration. The evidence of Mr. Anderson showed that hitherto these accounts had been kept in a most imperfect and unsatisfactory manner; but a method bad been pointed out by that gentleman, by which the difficulties in the way of improving the system might be readily overcome. Immediately after the report of the Committee was published, the Ordnance Office applied to the Government to appoint a Committee for the purpose of inquiring into the best mode of keeping these accounts, and a Committee was appointed, which bad applied to the subject all the time they had been able to spare from another most important inquiry which had been intrusted to them. They had as yet produced no report, and had admitted all the difficulties of the task they had undertaken. They found that notwithstanding the supposition that a system of double entry could be established in our store accounts, it was totally impossible; that the magnitude of the accounts and the enormous number of articles to be accounted for by the storekeepers precluded the possibility of it. They had, however, applied themselves as closely as they possibly could to the question, and he hoped in a very short time we might have a report with regard to the Navy; he did not believe they had been able yet to look into the manner of keeping the store accounts of the Ordnance. If he should have the honour of submitting the estimates in another year, he supposed he should be able to state some of the results of their labours. The next recommendation of the Select Committee was with respect to the warrant of 1825. The Ordnance Office was not constituted like any other office under the Government; the power of the Master General was supreme; he could make the appointments as he 30 pleased, so long as he confined himself within the amount granted for the establishment; and the warrant was never exceeded. It was issued when Lord Hardinge was Clerk of the Ordnance, and he made the arrangements upon which it was founded. It was considered then that the lowest scale was taken which could be safely adopted, having regard to the existing wants of the service. As the duties increased, and additional services were thrown upon the department, it might have been thought that it would probably be necessary to increase the establishment, and therefore to alter the warrant, but this had not been the case; the establishment had been kept within that compass, and, keeping within the sum thus settled, it was not necessary for the Master General to apply to any other authority in making appointments in the office. Of course it was a question whether that power was too extensive to place in the hands of any individual; but, for himself (Colonel Anson), in a case where a high officer like the Master General was placed at the head of a great department, and enjoyed the confidence of the Government, he should not have quarrelled with the placing such a power in his hands. At the same time, as the Committee thought it better that there should be a reference to the Treasury, he would be the last to object to that which was perhaps in principle the more correct course. The next recommendation related to the division of the Ordnance Office between the Tower and Pall Mall. The Committee stated that the distance between these two places rendered it difficult to obtain information as to current transactions, delayed business, and seriously interfered with the prompt discharge of official duties; and that a project for increasing the accommodation in Pall Mall, and bringing there the clerks employed in the office at the Tower, had been frequently under consideration, and that it was said the necessary alterations could be effected for 15,500l They added, that the present system occasioned a great loss of time to the clerks, inconvenience to the members of the board, and consequent disadvantage to the public. This point had been attended to. Application had been made to the Government to sanction an alteration in the premises at Pall Mall; and he (Colonel Anson) thought it would be advantageous in every respect. The separation of the office had been most inconvenient, particularly in the business 31 of a department having such complicated concerns to conduct. The Committee lastly commended to the attention of the Government the constitution of the department. They very wisely abstained from recommending what should be done, and left it to the Executive Government, the proper persons, to carry out the alterations requisite for remedying the defects that appeared to exist, and improving the arrangements. These matters would be much better understood by those belonging to the department than even by gentlemen who had given so much time and trouble to the subject in Committee upstairs. Now, the next vote was one that was rather alarming to look at, when persons were not acquainted with the Ordnance establishment; it was Vote No. 5, for "establishments in the united kingdom and colonies, salaries, allowances, and contingencies," amounting this year to 303,286l., but last year (1849–50) to 315,373l. But let the year before be also looked to, for these reductions had been going on for these two years; the reduction, as compared with 1848–9, amounted to 19,381. The reductions for 1850–51, as compared with 1849–50, were these:—in Ordnance establishments at home, 2,436l.; abroad, 2,352l.; barrack establishments at home, 4,855l.; pay of clerks of works, 2,289l.; in barrack estsblishments abroad there was an increase of 385l.—reducing the total reduction to 11,547l. It might be asked why there should be this increase abroad; but there was a very large reduction in this item in the previous year—11,312l.; and, taking the two years together, there could hardly be fault found upon this item. The Committee considered this vote and the next—for wages—conjointly. Their attention was drawn particularly to the establishments at Woolwich employed in the manufacture of articles required for Ordnance service. The reasons for the increase in the expense of those establishments in the last few years were fully stated in the report, and it would not be necessary to recount them. Gentlemen who read the report would see the reasons. In the laboratory, the carriage department, and the inspector of artillery department, it had been necessary' to add largely to the number of artificers and labourers to meet the demands of the service; but very little addition had been made to the charge for superintendence. It was impossible to speak too highly of 32 the indefatigable exertions of the officers at the heads of these departments. The new armament for the Navy, the improved description of guns and carriages, and the demands made upon the laboratory, sufficiently accounted for increase here. In the storekeeper's department at Woolwich, there was, however, a decrease of about 2,000l., notwithstanding the increase of work. The Committee in their report recommended that some of the establishments in the smaller colonies in the West Indies and Canada should be dispensed with, and stated that they were of opinion that in Canada, with the present improved means of communication by steam and railroads, the concentration of stores at a smaller number of stations might be sufficient for the supply of the force to be maintained there. This subject had been very closely considered, and various reductions had been made, in accordance with the wish of the Committee. In looking through the list of the establishments, Gentlemen would see that there was a reduction at home (Marchwood), and in Canada, in the instance of Isle-aux-Noix, the Ottawa Canal, and Toronto. There had also been some alterations in regard to the storekeepers and the deputies; some of the deputy storekeepers—about seven—had been reduced in the course of the year. In 1848–9 there were 40 storekeepers and deputy storekeepers at home, and 55 abroad; in 1850–51 the numbers were 36 and 51. In 1835–6 they were 39 and 46. The salaries had not increased: the 87 now cost 32,003l.; the salaries in 1835–6 were 31,015l.; in 1848–9, 34,790l. In 1835–6 there were 104 barrack-masters in the united kingdom; in 1850, 93. The salaries of the barrack-masters, sergeants, and labourers, amounted to 25,125l. in 1835–6; to 24,572l. in 1850. In the bar-rack establishments in the colonies there had been an increase since 1835 both in numbers and expense; but no one could be much surprised at that, considering what possessions had been added to this country. The barrack-masters were now 43: they were 38 in 1835. With respect to barrack establishments, various reductions had been made, and others were in progress. It had been urged, that while our barracks had been increased, there had not been a corresponding diminution of the number of buildings hired for temporary use; but the Government had given its best consideration to this matter, and there were now six or seven barracks in the northern district 33 which would be given up as soon as the troops had been removed from thorn, and, therefore, there would be a diminution next year. In conclusion, upon this vote, he had to state, that every establishment at home or abroad had been required to send in an accurate report of its state, that it might be seen whether the numbers employed there were necessary; and those reports were submitted to the authorities here, and brought under the notice of the Board of Ordnance, and the Master General would dispense with those that did not appear necessary. The next vote was for Wages, 129,003l.; in 1849–50 it was 141,330l. A diminution arose thus:—in wages in Ordnance establishments in the united kingdom, 9,455l.; in vessels and hoys, 551l.; in wages in the establishments in the colonies, 1,883l.; in fire-masters, &c., 2,321l. But the previous year must not be forgotten. In 1848–9 the vote was 158,567l.; compared with that, the diminution was 29,501l. The Select Committee recommended that the number of artificers and workmen in the manufacturing departments at Woolwich and elsewhere should be fixed according to the wants of the service in time of peace, and that no addition should be made without the written sanction of the Treasury. This had been attended to. Returns had been called for from all the establishments to show their extent and amount of duty; this was all under the consideration of the Ordnance authorities; and when they had fixed the amount required to be kept up, the whole would be submitted to the Treasury for their sanction. This had been done already in a great many instances at home. Some of the departments at Woolwich had been thus revised. In future no increase would be made in any of these departments without the sanction of the Government. The next vote was for Ordnance stores for land and sea service, 211,631l.; in 1848–50 it was 323,418l. The decrease arose in the following items:—for small arms, 30,000l. less than last year; iron ordnance, &c., 18,560l.; stores of every description, 58,327l.; purchase, &c., of stores on the spot, 1,500l.; materials for packing, &c., 3,000l.; repair of Ordnance vessels, &c., 400l. In 1848–9 the vote was 502,585l.—more by 290,954l. than for 1850–51. The Committee recommended greater detail with regard to these stores in the estimates; and it was shown now what was necessary for the stores for the different 34 departments at Woolwich and at the Tower. At the Tower there were required 28,783l.; at Woolwich, in the carriage department 21,987l., laboratory 20,899l., storekeeper's department 15,660l. There was one omission, which could be rectified in a future estimate; it was desired that the item of timber should be specified. A very small sum being required for it this year, 6,000l. or 7,000l., it had been put under the head of "Miscellaneous Stores." The Committee recommended that the quantity of stores to be kept in hand should be made to approximate more nearly to the wants of the service in time of peace. Every exertion had been made by the department to arrive at a definite conclusion and proportion. In August instructions were sent to every establishment to make returns of the state of their stores, distinguishing serviceable, unserviceable, and obsolete, and the returns had been received from the home stations, and some of the foreign. They would be considered in the first instance by the principal storekeeper, who would report to the Master General, and the Master General would give instructions to the establishments abroad as to the disposal of their stores. Much of these was obsolete, and there was a difficulty in getting rid of obsolete stores. It was a question whether it was better to get rid of them at what was no price at all, or retain them in case they should be wanted. It was unadvisable to keep a larger supply of stores than was really required; but to determine to sell obsolete stores on the spot, or send them home, would involve a heavy sacrifice or a very great expense. He did not believe those stores that were obsolete or unserviceable would produce a twentieth part of their original cost. It might be said that was the fault of the authorities for having kept them so long; but it should not be forgotten that we had been threatened with war at various times during the last few years, or that there had been, at least, a probability of our being involved in war, and, under such circumstances, we had been obliged to send our stores, in order that we might not be unprepared for it. In a case of that kind, when the alarm proved unfounded, it still remained a question whether it was more desirable to send those stores back, at a great expense to the country, or to retain thorn abroad. When the returns had been completed, and an accurate account of stores was in the hands of the Government, they would decide on the 35 proportion necessary to be kept at each station; and if there was any surplus of serviceable stores, to determine whether they should be removed to other stations, or immediately issued for consumption, while those that were obsolete would be disposed of as soon as possible. It would be observed that the amount demanded for small arms was not large. With respect to that subject it was one of very great importance, which would require the most anxious consideration. It was hardly necessary for him to inform the House that the country had been at a great expense in perfecting that branch of our military equipments, and that our Army had been provided with percussion arms at a large outlay, while we had a certain number of the same description of arms not in service. We had not so many in store, certainly, as we ought to have, because, in his opinion, once the description of arms was decided on, we should never be without a quantity available on extraordinary occasions. Circumstances had, however, arisen which made it necessary to withhold the completion of the supply of arms at present, and not to carry it out as rapidly as had been originally contemplated. Among those circumstances the principal was that there were certain improvements made on the Continent in the manufacture of fire-arms, which would, it was stated, give foreign troops an advantage over ours. For him-self, he confessed he was a little sceptical on that point; but it was one which ought to be maturely considered, and they proposed that the different inventions in and various descriptions of small arms abroad should be brought over to this country, and should be examined and tested together, in order to arrive at a most important conclusion, and decide whether we were behindhand with other countries with regard to the description of arms in the hands of our forces, or were able to compete with them on equal terms if ever we had the misfortune to be brought into collision with them. The next vote was the sum of 440,064l for works, buildings, and repairs. It was a most important vote, and one on which some hon. Members were very apt to form opinions without perhaps paying to it that deep consideration and attention it required. The vote for last year had been 486,536l., which, compared with the demand for the present year, showed a reduction of 46, 472l. Under the head of new works at home the demand was 52,497l. less than in 1849. For new works abroad the sum required 36 was 25,703l. less—total reduction on vote for works, 78,200l. Under the head of repairs there was an increase at home of 35,090l., while the repairs abroad showed a decrease of 3,362l., leaving an actual increase under this head of 31,728l., which, deducted from the amount of decrease on new works stated before, left a total reduction of 46,472l. For the year 1848 the vote was 617,482l., so that there was a diminution for 1860–51 as compared with 1848–9 of 117,418l. The whole of this vote had been most carefully considered by the Master General of the Ordnance and by Her Majesty's Government; and, though large in amount, the House would see how small a sum was asked for new works, such as fortifications, &c., either at home or abroad. That reduction was, however, attributable to the large amount that had been spent on those works in previous years. It was needless for him now to point out to how low a state—he might say, indeed, to what a state of degradation—our-works of defence had fallen till within the last few years, and in what condition the means we possessed of protecting our shores from aggression and insult were in 1835. It was enough to say they were totally inadequate for the purpose. They remained nearly in the same state till 1845, and were in the very lowest possible condition in that year. But, in the meantime, that state of things had not escaped the observation of those who turned their attention to our relations with foreign Powers, and many hon. Gentlemen found fault with the Government for not providing more effectually for the defence of the country. In 1845 the aspect of affairs became threatening—the few fortifications we had to rely upon were dismantled, dilapidated, and decayed. If a squadron of steamers had chosen to make their way to any of our principal naval stations, either Portsmouth, Plymouth, or Pembroke, or up the Thames, they were completely open to attack, and an enemy might have committed any act of aggression he pleased—there was nothing to prevent his vessels coming up the Thames and insulting Her Majesty in the very heart of her dominions. These considerations pressed themselves so seriously, at the time, that the attention of the right hon. Member for Tamworth and the existing Government were called to it, and they at once set to work to remedy this neglect. They proposed that a sum of money should be set apart to improve our defences, and their example had been 37 followed by the present Government to a very considerable extent. The result was, that much had been accomplished during those four years, and he was happy to say the country might be proud of it. At Portsmouth the sea defences had been completed, and made very powerful; at Plymouth they were equally complete; and he believed great improvements bad taken place at Sheerness, and in the defences of the Thames. They had commenced similar works at Pembroke, which was one of the finest dockyards and harbours in the world, and he was sure the House would be prepared to meet any reasonable demand upon them for its defence. It was impossible to say what might come to pass in a few years, and though the expense might appear to be large now, when the House considered the ultimate advantage to the country from the state and the feeling of security against aggression, they would, he was certain, agree with him that it far outbalanced any temporary inconvenience from the grant of so much money. The recommendations of the Committee on this vote were principally directed to the proper consideration of all expenses to be incurred for works before they were undertaken. He certainly agreed with them in that recommendation, and also was of opinion that the number of years each work would take should be ascertained as well. The great fault they had committed was in commencing works without knowing when they would be finished; but at the same time he thought it would be found on inquiry that very little ill-advised outlay of money had taken place. If they looked to the expenditure on civil buildings, it would be found to have been much more lavish and not half so well considered; and though the officers who had the management of military works had been blamed for extravagance, he ventured to say their estimates had been less often exceeded than those of any civil engineer in the country. The Committee were quite right in recommending that Government should always give official sanction before any outlay took place, as well as in their remarks on the necessity of fixed plans and detailed estimates. The works at Corfu and the Ionian Islands generally, at the Mauritius and Bermuda, had been well considered by Government with respect to Corfu, no sum would be taken this year for new works, and the only demand that would be made was for a sum to complete the bomb-proof barracks within the citadel, 38 which was shown in the paper before the House. In the case of the Mauritius, the only sum asked for was to complete Port George, which was situated at the entrance of the harbour, and which would be finished at a small expense. Without pretending to attach any great importance to his opinion, he would be ashamed of the House if they did not vote a liberal sum of money for the defence of that possession. It was one of the most important of our distant dependencies, and there was evidence to show that during the last war prizes had been taken into the Mauritius of the value of between 7,000,000l. and 8,000,000l. sterling. The Committee had recommended that the works at Bermuda should be postponed, and that Government should reconsider the question and the plans submitted to them. Those plans had been, in fact, already decided upon; but in consequence of the system to which he had adverted, of extending the expenditure over a long period of years, a delay had occurred in carrying them into effect, and the Government, in pursuance of the recommendation of the Committee, had abstained from taking any vote for works of defence, and only asked for a sum to complete the naval storehouses, which could not be dispensed with at such a large naval station. The total amount required was about 12,000l of which 3,000l. would be taken this year, and such further sums as might be required until a strict examination into the state of the works had been completed. The next vote was for what was called the scientific branch of the Ordnance Department, in which there would be found an increase on the vote for last year of 3,945l., the vote for 1850–51 being 98,804l., the vote for 1849–50 having been 94,859l. The cause of this increase was the larger amount required for the surveys. Of late years Government had taken annually a vote of 60,000l. for surveys; but, in consequence of the report of the Committee that the engraving of the maps of large towns should be accelerated as quickly as possible, it was resolved to ask for an increase of 5,000l. on that account. There was a large accumulation of surveys in the department, but they had not force enough to engrave them, and on that ground they asked for 2,000l. more than usual for the completion and publication of the Grand Trigonometrical Survey of Great Britain and Ireland, and the Ordnance Survey Levels. They would be engraved on a scale of five feet to the mile, 39 and would be valuable for many purposes of great importance. For instance, all sanitary improvements might be carried forward with the aid of these large maps. It was hoped the publication of the surveys and plans would afford valuable information and assistance to the public, and recompense them for the sums expended on the work, to which the House would not object. Fault had been found with the progress of the survey in Scotland, and complaints had been several times made of the slowness as well as of the mode in which it was carried on. A strong recommendation had been received from the county of Edinburgh that the survey should be proceeded with there instead of at Wigtonshire, upon which it was intended to act forthwith, and to proceed with the survey as rapidly as possible. The estimate for the Royal Military Academy was less than the vote for 1849–50, including a decrease principally of 1,770l. on the amount for the junior establishment at Carshalton. There was a small increase on some of the charges for the establishment at Chatham, though, on the whole vote, a trifling reduction was effected as compared with the vote for last year. The next vote was the sum of 177,536l. for Ordnance non-effective services, military and civil, on which there was an increase of 5,877l. over the vote of last year. That increase chiefly arose from superannuation allowances in the civil departments. A reduction of 546l. took place on the amount for retired and unattached general officers, compassionate allowances, and officers recorded as set off against the retired (full and half-pay), director and deputy-inspector of general medical department, and widows' pensions, &c. In addition to this, 126 persons had been pensioned since the last estimates; but all the charges of that nature were strictly in accordance with the regulations of the House of Commons, and no one was allowed to retire but in accordance with those rules. So that the sums might be looked on as a fixed charge. All claims were submitted to the Treasury, and the Lords decided upon them, and fixed the amount of pension as they thought fit. Having gone through all the votes in such detail as appeared to be necessary, and having considered in each case the recommendations of the Committee, he thought the House, with the report before them, and the evidence in their hands, would be fully competent to acquire all the information they might desire 40 on those various and complicated subjects. He was sure that those who best understood the condition of the Ordnance Department would agree with him that it was no easy task for any person to make himself thoroughly acquainted with all its details; he had taken all the pains he possibly could to make himself master of the whole of the subject, but he doubted not that an individual Member applying his mind to one item exclusively might attain to such a perfect knowledge of that as to place those who endeavoured to grasp the whole at a comparative disadvantage; but he assured the House that he had spared no pains to make himself master of every important fact or principle relating to the department. On the grounds, then, which he had stated, he asked the House to consent to the vote that he now proposed to put into the Chairman's hands. He did not ask them to consent to that vote solely on the ground that there was a difference in favour of the present year amounting to 198,000l. This reduction, as compared with the last year, was striking, but he did not on that account alone call upon them to agree to his Motion. He asked them to do so because the whole of the Ordnance Estimates had received the close attention of the Government, and because they had been fixed as low as the efficiency of the service would permit; everything had been done that was practicable in preparing those Estimates, to inspire confidence in the country; to satisfy the country that the best possible use was made of the money collected from the public, and that the Government had anxiously, maturely, and carefully considered the whole of those Estimates. He should conclude by moving that the number of men for the Ordnance be 14,569, including officers, noncommissioned officers, and men, of the several Ordnance corps and departments to be maintained for service at home and abroad.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, he was not going to occupy the time of the House at any length. He wished to do the gallant Officer who had just sat down the justice to say, that on the Committee which had sat upwards of four months, the hon. and gallant Gentleman had devoted his whole attention to the subject before them, and had done everything in his power to lead the inquiry to a satisfactory result. The House would recollect that the Ordnance department were called upon by the Army and Navy to provide certain stores which they had to furnish, 41 and that they were, therefore, to a certain extent, executive officers. The real responsibility, therefore, rested with Her Majesty's Government, and with the military and naval authorities. The House had unequivocally decided on supporting the military establishments to the full extent, and they could not, therefore, refuse the stores necessary for it. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had spoken of the reductions made within the last two years; but he wished to know why the comparison was never carried back more than a couple of years? During the last eight years they had strained every resource of the country, in order to keep up an establishment far greater than ever had been kept up in ordinary time of peace before. Taking the artillery force alone, he found that in 1792 they had but 4,486 men; in 1828 they had but 8,682 men; and yet they were now called upon to vote upwards of 14,000 men. He wished to know why that vast force was now wanting? In 1792 the whole Ordnance expense for men was 151,000l.; in 1828 it was 471,000l; and this year it was 711,000l. They had now twelve battalions, though they never before had more than ten battalions in this force. It was for the country to decide—and in his opinion the country would decide before long—what was the proper amount to be expended for this service. For five successive years the Ordnance Estimates did not exceed 1,150,000 l. In 1845 they reached 2,100,000l. and this year they were 2,600,000l. When the hon. and gallant Gentleman spoke of the necessity of keeping up stores for 185,000 men, after thirty years of peace, he regarded it as a sarcasm on civilisation. It would appear that in direct proportion as the country became more civilised they were to increase their war establishments. He would recommend hon. Members to read the evidence given before the Committee by Captain Hastings, of the panic the Ministry laboured under in 1844, lest some foreign fleet should attack our shores. And the same fear, absurd as it was, was actually put before them again this evening; for the gallant Officer talked of a foreign fleet invading this country at any time, unless our harbours were put in a state of defence. But what was to become of our fleet all the time? or could any fleet be got ready in a foreign country, and invade these shores, without our receiving any notice of it whatever? These were altogether erroneous views which were 42 I taken by the Government, and against them he felt called upon to enter his protest. He would not follow the matter further; but he put it to the House whether the Ordnance Office ought, not be altogether abolished—whether its miltary department ought not to be transferred to the control of the Commander-in-chief, while what properly related to the Ordnance would become a mere store departpartment, at a considerable reduction of expense? There was in existence the report of a Committee, of which five of the present Cabinet Ministers were members, recommending such a change in the government of the Army; but up to this hour the question had been evaded. He trusted, however, that the Committee now sitting would come to some decision on the subject, He was ready to admit, however, that the hon. and gallant Officer had made a very candid statement; but the reductions he announced were so trifling that he could not accept them as reductions at all, most of what had been done in this way being mere postponements of expense. No doubt there had also been the reduction of a few storekeepers; but he hoped the gallant Officer would adopt there commendation of the Committee, and appoint some of the half-pay artillery officers to be barrack-masters and holders of other civil offices, which would effect a great reduction of expense. But the great reduction he contemplated was the reduction of the Ordnance establishments. At present these establishments were studded all over England. Now that stores could be conveyed by means of railways to the most distant parts of England in the course of twenty-four hours, he did not see the use of maintaining so many establishments, which in fact deprived the country of all benefit to be derived from the introduction of steam. He had always had an idea that there was some mystery connected with the Ordnance departments, and that none but Ordnance officers could understand them; but he had certainly been disabused of that idea, for he found on inquiry that there was not a single artillery officer at the board—they were all cavalry or infantry officers, which showed that there was no peculiar difficulty in the management of the office, and that no harm could arise from its amalgamation with the office of the Commander-in-chief. As long as the House sanctioned these expenses, however, they would go on; but the day of reckoning must come, and therefore it was that he was anxious to see the 43 constitution of the House altered, for he was satisfied that, as at present constituted, they were quite inadequate to control the expenditure. This very evening he might, if he had chosen, have counted the House out four or five times. He was glad to see that the hon. and gallant Member for Lincoln retained his place throughout the evening. The hon. and gallant Member occupied two benches, and there was another Member asleep on the front brench; and that for a considerable time represented the whole attendance on the opposite benches. Financial reform boards were now forming all over the country, and yet this was the indifference with which the House of Commons regarded questions of voting away money. With this state of things, he thought it was ludicrous in the highest degree to talk of the House of Commons being a check upon the public expenditure. He protested against the whole system; he did not blame the officers; he believed they were very good men for carrying out details; but it was the system which was bad. He did not intend to move any reduction upon this vote, though, as he had shown, the artillerymen had been increased in the course of a few years from 8,000 to 14,000 men. He Was aware of the importance of this arm of the service; but he was quite willing to add to the strength of the artillery if the Government would reduce the infantry force, and let the artillery men do garrison duty. But what he complained of was, that the artillery was nearly doubled, while the other arms of the service were also increased. He would further state his opinion, that the Ordnance ought to dispense with its manufactories; that it ought to contract for every thing it wanted, with the exception, perhaps, of gunpowder. At any rate, he thought they ought to dispense with some hundreds of establishments, with their complement of storekeepers and other officers, accumulating stores in one year to be sold a few years afterwards at a great loss.
§ COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: I have very great pleasure in hearing my hon. and gallant Friend so ably propose the Estimates entrusted to his charge; and I am happy in giving them my entire support; so far from thinking our force of artillery too large, I am quite disposed to vote for its increase. In all our warlike affairs we have been sadly deficient in that most valuable and important branch—Artillery— 44 for, with the exception of the last brilliant affair of my noble Friend at Goojerat, the want of artillery has been greatly felt. That engagement was essentially an artillery one; and, as far as my experience goes, I am decidedly of opinion it is both humane and merciful to have an overwhelming force of artillery in the field, as an engagement with the effective assistance of this powerful arm is much sooner decided, and with much less loss of life than where that force is weak and insufficient.
§ Vote agreed to, as were the following votes:—(2.) 652,755l., Pay and Allowances, Ordnance Military Corps. (3.) 173,837l. Commissariat.
§ On Vote 4, for 66,961l., to complete the sum necessary to defray the expense of the Ordnance Office,
§ MR. HUMEasked whether, if the military department was transferred, as it ought to be, to the Horse Guards, any man in his senses would give 66,000l. to keep up an office only necessary for the control of the stores?
COLONEL ANSONdid not wish to trouble the House again, but really his hon. Friend made such extraordinary statements that he could not allow them to pass. The hon. Member told them that the mastery of the Ordnance details was an easy business; but he could only say that he never knew any one who had attended to them so long as the hon. Member, and who knew so little. It was impossible to allow the House to be misled into the opinion that the Ordnance Office was upheld for no other purpose than the superintendence of the stores. There were a great many duties to be performed; and he did not believe there was any other department of the Government where so much business was done. He should like very much if the hon. Member would come and sit in his office for a couple of days, when he would find that he would be required to go through as many figures daily as he was crammed with for a supply night. With regard to the amalgamation of the office with the Horse Guards, that was a question that would come before the Committee now sitting on the Army; and though the hon. Member has shown that his mind was made up on the question, yet he (Colonel Anson) would not give any opinion till he had heard the evidence, further than this, that if they broke up the establishment, he did not know whether they could conduct the business with the same facility as at present; but he was 45 certain that it would be at an increased expense. His hon. Friend had quoted the Ordnance for 1835 at 1,100,000l. That was a mistake; the Ordnance expenditure for the year being 1,497,000l., the difference between which and the present year was, therefore, only 930,000l. With regard to the propriety of appointing artillerymen to be storekeepers, the hoard would be ready to do so if it were practicable; but in truth very few of them were so competent for the duty as those who had been brought up to the store department from an early period. Besides, as most of the storekeepers entered the service very young, at a small pay, but with the prospect of an increase as they remained in the service, he thought it would be to destroy all their fair and reasonable prospects if they were now to appoint artillery officers to those places which they had been led to believe would be given to them.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, the matter might, perhaps, be difficult of proof; but he would venture this observation, that if the military and store departments were separated, as in the Bengal army, the business would be efficiently done at one-fourth of the expense, and without that waste of stores which was continually occurring now. He also defended his statement of the Ordnance expenditure in 1835, which he said he had taken from a return ordered by Mr. Baring, and signed "J. Parker."
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On Vote 5, that 243,826l. be granted to complete the sum necessary for defraying establishments at home and abroad,
§ MR. COBDENsaid, they had at homo and abroad eighty Ordnance establishments, with storekeepers, deputy storekeepers, clerks, and all the other officers necessary in an establishment for keeping stores. Now, that was one of the points to which the Committee drew the attention of the Government in expectation of a considerable reduction being made in the number of these establishments. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had told them that there was a reduction of four establishments; but he thought the Committee looked to see a great deal more done. Harwich, he observed, was still retained; but Harwich was pointed out by the Committee as an establishment that might be dispensed with; and with the present facilities for travelling, more es- 46 tablishments ought to be shut up, and their expense saved. Abroad, there were forty-seven of these establishments. He thought that the same rule which applied to England ought to apply to the colonies, and probably to a still larger extent. He found that there were in Canada seven Ordnance establishments, keeping half a million worth of stores—many of them of a very perishable nature—and yet some of these stores had been there for half a century. If he went to the West Indies, he found every little island there strewed with cannon, shot, shell, and all the paraphernalia of the Ordnance. Now he had been informed, on the authority of parties who had recently visited the West Indies, that this system might be changed with advantage, even to the efficiency of the service. Before the introduction of steam navigation, there was a difficulty in communicating between the Windward and Leeward Islands at certain seasons of the year, a voyage between them occupying sometimes twenty days, but now they might be reached in twenty-four hours, or forty-eight at the utmost; and he had been told, and he had no doubt correctly, that they were still keeping up an establishment on every small island with from forty to fifty artillerymen. He had been told that their services might be dispensed with to the advantage of the service, and without inconvenience to any one. He hoped the hon. and gallant Gentleman would not think he had carried out the recommendations of the Committee by reducing the establishments—if he came before them next year with a reduction of twelve or twenty more, he would still find that he had left something to do.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, he did not mean it to be understood that the reductions were completed, but time must be allowed for making the necessary inquiries into the case of each establishment.
§ MR. HUMEasked if the establishment had been reduced in Australia, as the troops had been reduced there?
§ COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: I perceive amongst other items "stores damaged or deficient by troops, 8,775l." I should wish to know is this a credit for what has been called usually barrack damages. [Colonel ANSON: Yes.] I beg, then, to call attention to this most iniquitous plan of barrack damages; nothing more requires attention and alteration. It 47 is, indeed, disgraceful to see how soldiers are mulcted and cheated under this head. Is it expected that barracks are to be occupied for years without requiring repairs? It is quite abominable to see how this system is carried on. Every month the barrackmaster, attended by a long suite of officials, clerks, sergeants, contractors for repairs, makes his inspection; every nail-hole in wood-work or plaster is carefully noted down by these contractors; every spot or stain on floor, table, or wall, is eagerly pointed out by these prying personages; for the more abstracted from the soldier, the more the contractor gains. The charges of 2d. per nail-hole, 6d. or 1s. for stains or ink-spots—for all the soldiers pays at a rate perhaps of 1,000 per cent above the value; for, in many instances, a stroke of a whitewash brush, of the value perhaps of a thousandth part of a farthing, will erase a damage of contractor valuation of a shilling or two. If a bolt or screw-nut is lost in the stable by the uneasiness of a horse, and cannot be found in the litter, the soldier of course pays for it. In vain commanding officers endeavour to save their men from such impositions—in vain he remonstrates; he gets no redress; he entails a month's correspondence upon himself; a board, perhaps, is ordered to assemble to investigate the case, but who can they examine but the very men who have made the charges?—and whatever those opinions may be, they of course corroborate the injustice; for if ever convinced they are wrong, for consistency sake they will hold to their original opinions. Another fraudulent system is the repair of glass, and it forms a most serious monthly charge against the soldier. The lowest tender for its supply is taken, and the most inferior thin glass is supplied: consequently, if ever the door is closed with violence, panes are invariably broken, and of course the soldier is again mulcted. I also perceive in the same column, "Washing sheets, paid for by the troops 10,044l." Now here, Sir, is more cheating. It is well known the contract for washing these is from ¾d. to 1d. per pair: why should the soldier pay more? he is charged 2d. But, Sir, it is only a continuance of a system against the whole of which I most strongly protest—a system founded upon fraud and injustice, by which the soldier is cheated and defrauded out of his hard-earned pittance in a most shameful and scandalous manner.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that the lan- 48 guage of his hon. and gallant Friend was rather strong; but the fact was he spoke professionally as the commanding officer of a regiment, and gentlemen acting in such capacities were often biassed. But the public wanted protection in those matters, and laxity could not be allowed. If those small damages were overlooked on account of their individual smallness, the consequence would be an aggregate of expense to the nation, which would bring down his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose to complain of their gross neglect. It was a subject, however, that should be closely looked into.
§ COLONEL CHATTERTONI have spoken strongly, for I strongly feel this crying injustice; and I would beg to say if my gallant Friend or any Member of the House imagines I have spoken too strongly in reprobation of this matter, I request they will move for copies of the correspondence which has taken place between the authorities and myself, upon my regiment leaving Edinburgh in the year 1846, when the system I complain of was in full activity. Before I leave this branch of the Estimates, I would beg to ask if any steps have been taken for erecting buildings in barracks for the convenience of married soldiers? It is really subversive of all the rules of decency or morality for married soldiers to occupy the same rooms with the bachelor soldiers. But I do not see any item in these estimates to provide for a requirement so essential.
§ MR. FOX MAULEsaid, that this had been under the consideration of Government, and that last year 4,000l. had been voted for separate accommodation for married soldiers.
§ COLONEL CHATTERTONI am very glad of this assurance. There is one more item to which I beg to call attention—namely, "coals and candles in barracks in Great Britain and Ireland, 74,968l." Now, of this even the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose cannot complain, formed as it is upon such a wretched parsimonious plan. Will the House believe that the allowance for a soldier in barracks of coals is about forty ounces per week; of candles—which are of a most wretched description, at eight to the pound, the contract price being about 4¾d. per pound—half a pound per week for eight soldiers, or perhaps about an inch and a quarter per week for each man; of wood, three quarters of an ounce per week per man? Of course, all this is totally inadequate to their 49 wants; and again, the system of the soldier paying is resorted to. I have felt it my duty, anxious as I am for the welfare and protection of our gallant Army, to state these facts to the House, and to call my hon. and gallant Friend's attention to them, should he again have to lay the Ordnance Estimates next year before the. House; and I hope and trust my recommendation which I have ventured to offer may not altogether be forgotten by him.
§ MR. HUMEasked if any arrangements had been made with regard to the payment by the colonies of the expense of barrack accommodation to be hereafter provided for the troops?
COLONEL ANSONreminded the hon. Gentleman that he had already stated that such an arrangement had been made with regard to Australia. After the 1st of October next those expenses would be paid by the colony.
§ MR. COBDENcalled attention to the following passage in the report of last year's Committee on the Ordnance Estimates:—
The largo and increasing amount required for barrack accommodation in the colonies induced your Committee to request Earl Grey, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to afford some information as to the practicability of any future reduction under this head. His Lordship stated that, in his opinion, the colonies ought to contribute more than they have done to the expense of lodging the troops, and since he had been in office he had never lost sight of the importance of gradually obtaining from the colonies contributions towards defraying this expenditure; with this view he had now proposed that in Australia the whole charge of the barracks should be transferred to the colony.This had been done, it appeared, in Australia. He wished to know whether Earl Grey's attention had been directed to the same subject in the other colonies?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that that was obviously a question which it was not for him to answer. As Earl Grey had stated it to be his intention to apply the rule to the other colonies, no doubt it would be done.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On Vote 6, for 79,003l. to complete the sum necessary for the payment of Wages of artificers, labourers, and others employed in the several establishments at home and abroad,
§ MR. HUMEsaid, that that vote involved the whole principle of manufactures, of which he had so often found occasion before to complain. It had been decided in 1828 that no manufactured arti- 50 cle that could be supplied to the Government by contract should be manufactured by the Government.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that that rule had not been deviated from wherever it was possible to observe it. The articles supplied to the Government from Woolwich and other places were only those that could not be depended upon if supplied by ordinary manufactures.
§ MR. COBDENsaid, he had paid particular attention to that point in the Committee last Session, and he was convinced that the parties examined could give no very clear idea of what was the cost of the articles manufactured. For instance, in the manufactory of gunpowder, they kept a large stock of saltpetre and of sulphur, enough for twenty or thirty years' consumption; they had a large establishment of blasting machinery, a number of dwelling-houses for the superintendents and cottages for the workpeople; but all that capital was put down as nothing. They simply took the wages and the cost of the raw material, put the amount of the two as the expense of manufacturing the article, and then compared that with the cost of what they purchased from private individuals, who were in the habit of putting down all their capital, fixed and floating, as entering into the cost of their manufactures. He did not think the evidence given was worth one straw; and he did not believe that anything made in the department might not be purchased cheaper of the manufacturers. He did not include gun carriages, because they were merely an adaptation of articles which they had in the yard; but he believed that gunpowder and brass ordnance might be bought cheaper.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that three-fourths of all the gunpowder was supplied by contract, but as to the brass guns the hon. Gentleman was very much mistaken. They required to be made of a mixed metal, which could not be depended on unless great care were taken in the fusion and amalgamation. They could not entrust their manufacture to other than their own hands.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On Vote 7, for 111,631l. to complete the sum required for Ordnance stores for land and sea service.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that they must have a store of muskets besides what were actually in the hands of the troops. They 51 used to have a reserve of 200,000 muskets, but they had nothing like so many now.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, that many of the old stock had become useless as being obsolete. There were daily improvements being-made in small arms, and he feared they were now making a store which would be declared obsolete in a few years.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that they were always liable to that chance; but it was in common with other nations. They should keep up a sufficient store of good arms.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that 4,000 tons used to be the regular store, but they would now have not more than 3,500 tons. He thought it better to keep it in a refined than a rough state.
§ MR. HUMEwished to know how many years' supply that was; for, so long as they held India, they need keep no great stock.
COLONEL ANSONreplied, about five years' consumption. But as to India supplying a store when wanted, they would find, if an emergency arose, that the price would be doubled, or more, upon them.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, the keeping of a stock wasted more than what the difference in price would be. Those stocks were a monstrous source of loss. They had been obliged to throw aside as useless no less than 24,000 iron guns.
§ Vote agreed to, as was Vote 8 for 290,064l. to complete the sum necessary to defray the expense of works, buildings, and repairs.
§ On Vote 9, 78,804l. to complete the sum required to defray the expenses of the scientific branch of the Ordnance department,
§ MR. WYLDwished to know whether any, and if any, what proportion of the expenses incurred by the survey of the metropolis had been paid as yet by the ratepayers of the city of London?
COLONEL ANSONrather thought that none had been repaid as yet. When any would be paid it would be paid into the Exchequer, and appropriated in aid.
§ MR. J. E. DENISONobjected to the expenses incurred by the Irish Ordnance Survey. The first estimate of the expense of the survey of Ireland was 30,000l. It turned out to be 120,000l. The whole survey, and the cost of maps was then said to be likely to amount to 300,000l. But 52 the expense already incurred had amounted to no less than 758,000l. for surveys and maps. The survey was pretty nearly completed, except some levels and lines of elevation, but it was estimated that the completion would cost 120,000l. more. He wished to know what was the decision of his hon. and gallant Friend and of the Government with regard to this expense?
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that the additional expense was occasioned by the map of Ireland being under revision. The system of contouring was found to be much superior to the system of hill sketching, and the whole survey was being now revised upon the plan of the field survey, it having been completed upon what was called the townland survey. Those additional expenses might seem inexpedient, but they were as necessary as outlays upon new guns and changes in the form of arms, which they had been shortly before discussing. They had begun the English survey upon the scale of one inch to a mile, but they had subsequently altered it to a scale of six inches, as far more useful for the large towns. The maps of the largo towns were being engraved, as the survey was being completed. The townspeople were anxious to have the maps, and were applying for them in order to carry out the more perfectly their sanitary improvements.
§ MR. J. E. DENISONsaid, that if the House thought fit to lay out the sum of 120,000l. for contouring, of course it could do so. But the maps having been already completed, the addition seemed an entirely unnecessary expense.
§ SIR H. VERNEYthought the contouring most important. Had there been maps completed in such a manner when all the railways that now intersected the country were projected, it would have saved the outlay of millions of money in surveys.
§ Captain BOLDEROrecommended the adoption of a unform national scale for these surveys.
§ Vote agreed to, as was Vote 10 for 137,536l. for the non-effective Ordnance service.