EMIGRATION FROM IRELAND.

HC Deb 15 May 1849 vol 105 cc500-32

MR. MONSELL

then proceeded to call the attention of the House to the importance of encouraging emigration from Ireland. He rose, certainly not without considerable embarrassment, to address the House on this subject, as connected with Irish interests, and as a means essential to the relief of Irish distress. On the one hand, he was well aware of the difficulties which he should have to encounter in dealing with so large a question; on the other, he felt that protracted and, he was afraid he must add, fruitless debates had indisposed the House to the consideration of Irish questions. He threw himself, however, confidently on the indulgence of the House, and would endeavour to merit that indulgence by compressing all that he thought it necessary to say into the smallest possible compass; and, first, he declared his cordial agreement with the opinion expressed by the Solicitor General on the preceding evening, that what was wanted for Ireland was a series of beneficial measures. He quite admitted that the suggestions he was about to make, if carried out, would not avail towards relieving the miseries of some of the worst districts of Ireland, where, on account of the omission of such measures, the population was already reduced by death, and those that remained were enfeebled by disease. He knew also that in almost every place the remedy of emigration would require the assistance of other concurrent remedies. He took, for instance, the Incumbered Estates Bill. He believed that that measure attacked the malady in its source and ultimate cause. He should utterly fail in recommending his views to the House, if he did not prove that they would assist the objects and promote the changes which his hon. and learned Friend desired to effect by that Bill; but his hon. and learned Friend's Bill would not work without purchasers. He must take care, lest haply the estates submitted for sale under his commission, should meet with the fate of those put up for auction the other day by the Earl of Courtown. Let the House recollect that these estates were situated not in the distressed unions—not under the Court of Chancery—but in a district comparatively well circumstanced—with an undisputed title, and in lots of different sizes, some small and some large, and so calculated to draw forth purchasers, if any persons of any class had any confidence in the existing social state of Ireland. It would be in the recollection of those Gentlemen who had seats in the last Parliament, that the necessity for assisting emigration was urged upon Parliament in February, 1847, by his hon. Friend the Member for Gateshead; and in the month of June by his noble Friend the Member for Falkirk. Those two remarkable speeches showed how utterly impossible it was to surmount the difficulties of the position in which Ireland was then placed, without largely assisting emigration. His noble Friend, he recollected, pointed out the certain operation of the poor-law, if unaided by such means, in diminishing the means of employment—that, consequently, the amount of destitution would be greatly increased—and that the country must go on from bad to worse. These conclusions he proved by â priori arguments which it was impossible to answer. He (Mr. Monsell) now pointed out the verification of those conclusions by facts. Nay, he did more, for those words of warning, dimly shadowed out by his noble Friend, were now visibly and legibly written in characters of blood. He might pass lightly over this portion of the subject. Night after night it had been before the House. Ruin had reached every class in many districts. Take the peasantry—you found reports not written by persons who are not responsible for their assertions, but by Government officers. They tell of frequent deaths. In one district only a few days ago an assistant barrister informed the Committee on the poor-law, that in two years one-third of its population had perished. It was thought that they had left the district. He was asked the question; he said that they had died—died of sheer want. What was the account he gave of the prisoners who were tried before him within the last fortnight? He said that numbers had prayed him to transport them. One instance specially he mentioned, in which, having warned the prisoner that he would have to work for seven years at penal labour, and work in chains; what was the reply? "But at all events I shall have a bellyfull, instead of starving here." How was the clothing of the people described? "They were frequently observed," says Mr. Hamilton, "with no other covering except the remnant of some tattered bed-clothing merely hung on their shoulders; two or three persons being covered with what was once a blanket." The returns of the pawnbrokers, which had been laid on the table of the House, proved that the means of the lowest class were exhausted, and that once respectable farmers were now sinking rapidly into pauperism. Let them take the case, not of the union of Clifden, with eleven-nineteenths of its land waste—not of Kilrush, with their 13,000 human beings, described by Captain Kennedy as ejected from their holdings—but of Ballina, to the prospects of which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had alluded with so much satisfaction. What was the account of the county in which that union was situated, given in evidence by Mr. Brett, the county surveyor? "Great numbers," he said, "had died; the diminution of wealth, and of any available resources had gone on in a greater ratio than the diminution of the population—the physical condition of those who remained had deteriorated—the children looked like animals of a lower class." He would not weary the House with further details, but would conclude this portion of his subject by reading a single passage from the evidence of Count Strelecki, that apostle of charity, whose name was never mentioned in Ireland without a blessing, and whose labours in the cause of a suffering people had rendered him intimately acquainted with their condition. Let the House recollect that this gentleman was a great traveller, and had visited almost every part of the globe. Count Strelecki thus spoke of the state of the country:— I am sorry to say that having in my perambulations around the world had occasion to see humanity in most of the latitudes and longitudes, including the aboriginal races in North and South America and the South Sea Islands, and in New Zealand and Australia, I have not found anywhere else men subject to misery of such an aggravated character as the Irish peasantry of the western unions were. The famine described by Sismondi, in Tuscany, in 1846, 1847, 1848, is nothing to be compared with what came under my own observation in Ireland. They had now abundant information as to the parts of the country to which this remedy of emigration ought to be applied. There were only forty-three unions in Ireland in which the rates were above 3s. in the pound, and there were only about thirty of those unions where it was essential that assistance should be afforded for the purposes of emigration. By applying emigration as a remedy to these unions, they would save them from falling into that state of utter ruin in which so many unions had fallen, and to which all were now hastening. If they did not assist those unions, be believed that the shrieks of misery which have been heard in the west. would now be caught up in districts for which no assistance has yet been required. For instance, the county of Limerick had not yet suffered the extreme distress which prevailed in the worst part of Ireland; but unless a portion of the population there were enabled to emigrate, he had no doubt but that the anticipations contained in the petition which he had presented that evening from the board of guardians of the Limerick union, and which had been unanimously agreed to by them in favour of the emigration, would be verified, and that that county would soon present the same scenes of utter destitution which prevailed throughout seven or eight of the unions in the west of Ireland. Day by day the condition of the people of Limerick was approaching still nearer to that of the most impoverished part of the country; it was losing that which had distinguished it from Mayo or Galway, namely, its capital; and as timely assistance to emigration would have saved those counties, so now it would save Limerick from their fate. Would emigration have saved Mayo? He would ask the House to compare the present state of Ballina, to which he had already alluded, with that of the adjoining districts of Sligo, from which systematic emigration had taken place. At the commencement of the famine, Cliffony, in the Sligo union, was in a much worse state than any part of Ballina, Yet in Ballina many had sunk into a miserable grave; and of those that were left, multitudes were suffering the most acute misery—capital had almost vanished—while those who had emigrated from Cliffony were most prosperous. Through the post-office of that small place, 2,000l had been sent home this year. Its inhabitants were employed, and the poor-rates of the division were comparatively small. How was this happy change effected? Mr. Kincaid, the agent, had told the Poor Law Committee—by emigration; and employment without emigration could not have been made productive. Nothing could exceed the misery through which the Ballina union had passed, while in those districts of Sligo, where emigration had been tried, comparative comfort now prevailed, while large sums of money had been sent home by those who had gone out to enable their friends to join them. Not only in Sligo, but in Tipperary, and every other part of Ireland, from which emigration had been properly conducted, the same beneficial results had followed. The census returns showed that while in ten years the agricultural population of England had decreased 3 per cent, the same in Connaught had increased 21 per cent, and in Munster 15 per cent. In Lincolnshire, one of the great agricultural counties of England, there were only nine labourers to every 100 arable acres; while in Mayo there was a population of 78 on every 100 arable acres. Taking the two countries generally he found that in England an agricultural population of three millions cultivated 30,000,000 of acres; while in Ireland five and a half millions of people cultivated 13,000,000 of acres. There were 60 agricultural labourers to every 100 cultivated acres in Ireland; while in France, notwithstanding all that was said about the great subdivision of land, there was only a population of 39 to every 100 cultivated acres; and in France there was a large non-agricultural population, while in Ireland there is hardly any. Could any one then deny that there was in Ireland a disproportion between the means of giving employment and the number requiring to be employed; how this state of things was produced in Ireland he could not inquire at any length. It was obvious that the penal laws had degraded the people—that they were satisfied with the lowest description of food—and that they multiplied up to the potato-producing power of the soil. In the poorest districts they were most degraded, and they multiplied in those districts fastest. Those districts had a very small non-agricultural population—one acre of potatoes produced as much human food as three acres of corn. Even with the potato the people were on the verge of starvation—without it what tongue could describe the horrors of their condition? As bad as that of Manchester would be if cotton were to disappear—a vast market of men underselling their industry against one another—employers decreasing—those who required employment increasing. As long as that social state remained, they could not expect that capital would flow into the country, or be expended in the improvement of the soil. As sure as water quenched fire, so surely must such a social state stifle all approach to industry or enterprise in the country. The Incumbered Estates Bill, and Land Improvement Bill, or whatever other beneficial measures they might adopt, must fail, so long as this tremendous evil remained unremoved. Hon. Gentlemen who took an opposite view of this question, were very fond of referring to the case of Belgium. But it should be recollected, in the first place, that agriculture and manufactures had grown up together in Belgium, and that the whole foundation of the agriculture of Belgium lay in the large amount of capital which the small holders were enabled to expend upon their farms. The cotton manufactures of Belgium occupied 122,000 hands; the woollen manufactures of Verviers and its neighbourhood alone occupied 40,000 persons; the hosiery trade occupied 50,000; and the linen trade, in spinning, weaving, and bleaching, 400,000 persons. With such a state of manufacturing industry, how could they compare Belgium to Ireland? They should bear in mind that no less than 15l. per acre had been expended on an average in improvements in Belgium; and could they have any prospect of similar expenditure of capital in Ireland with its present overcrowded population? His belief was, that if they gave a scope to the employment of private capital by the encouragement of emigration from the distressed districts, they would have more land drained and more improvements effected than they could hope to accomplish by any measure like the Land Improvement Act, although he admitted it to be a useful enactment. To use the words of an eminent writer, the actual slate of penury and misery which makes the cultivators helpless and keeps them destitute, is the great obstacle to the commencement of national improvement. It would be unnecessary for him to occupy the time of the House by showing that emigration would benefit the labouring classes, as that was a proposition which no one would be disposed to deny. It would be a mockery to undertake to prove that it was better for people to be in America in the enjoyment of comfort, than to be starving at home. He knew it was said that emigration from Ireland was at present excessive; but it was of a class which was an injury and not a benefit to the country. If hon. Gentlemen had read the accounts of emigration from Dublin during the past few days, they would perceive that several vessels had gone away filled with strong and opulent farmers, the very class that it was desirable to retain. In the evidence taken before the Select Committee of that House on the Irish Poor Law, he found the following passages descriptive of the sort of emigration now in operation from Ireland. In the report of the vice-guardians of the union of Carrick-on-Shannon, it was stated— We are of opinion a great deal of this poverty is attributable to the emigration of that class of farmers holding from ten to twenty acres of land, who, on their leaving, have disposed of their farms to a class who were desirous of obtaining possession; such have given their entire capital, leaving themselves unable to stock the land, or to pay either the rates or rent, for proof of which there were entered with the clerk of the peace for the last quarter-sessions, in this division alone, 186 ejectment cases; also the loss of the potato, which has affected men of every degree, for we may say the rent was chiefly paid by means of feeding pigs on the refuse of that esculent. In the Longford union, the Kilkenny union, the Thurles union, and the Kanturk union, the vice-guardians also reported to the same effect. Surely this emigration of capitalists—of the employers of labour—was increasing the disproportion between capital and labour, and therefore increasing overpopulation: a parish with two hundred labourers and ten employers might not have labourers enough, but take away the employers and it would become overpopu lated. Another argument often used was, that the natural resources of Ireland could support double the population. He did not doubt but they might, but he could not see how the possible produce of the country under a highly improved cultivation could have anything to do with the immediate position in which Ireland was placed. How long would it take to develop those national resources sufficiently to employ the existing population? and were the people in the mean time to starve? Merthyr Tydvill 100 years ago had only 200 or 300 inhabitants—now it had between 40,000 and 50,000, who were all employed. Suppose the 40,000 or 50,000 had been there 100 years ago, he could fancy the hon. Member for Stroud addressing them, when they asked him for immediate labour; and telling them of the mineral resources which lay beneath their feet, and assuring them that those when developed would give them ample employment; but he did not think that this answer would have been very satisfactory to his starving auditors. Another argument against Irish emigration was that which had been used the other day by his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies. His hon. Friend seemed to think that the opinion entertained in some of the colonies was, that Irishmen did not make good colonists. But so far from this opinion being borne out by the facts, every single witness examined before the Colonisation Committee, with one exception, bore testimony to the superior character of the Irish emigrants. Mr. Cunard stated— I think the English emigrant the best, and the Irish next, and that the descendants of the Irish make excellent settlers. Mr. Pemberton said that the Irish emigrants were the best labourers for all works requiring great strength, and that all very laborious works, both in the United States and in Canada, were executed by Irishmen. Mr. Minturn's evidence contained the following:— There was then no indisposition on the part of the Irish labourers to support themselves by honest industry?—On the contrary, every man who was able to carry a spade went to work, and although the commission of emigration commenced its operations in May, and those persons were authorised by law to demand assistance from them whenever they were unable to take care of themselves, there were no instances of applications from ablebodied men for admission to the institutions of the commissioners until the winter set in, which greatly diminished outdoor labour, and at no time were there chargeable to the commissioners more than 300 ablebodied men. Out of the enormous number that came?—Out of the emigration of 60,000 Irish, and 160,000 of all nations. It also produces very good effects to the people, who themselves emigrate into the country?—Surprising effects. In America they imbibe the spirit of the country. The Irish, who are said to be unwilling to work at home, are industrious in the United States. I have scarce ever known an ablebodied Irishman unwilling to work. I can speak with great confidence with regard to their indefatigable industry and willingness to work, and that they do not seek assistance when they can obtain labour. He could conceive no statements more decisive than those as to the character of the Irish emigrants, and he thought, after such evidence, that it would be most ungenerous to attempt to influence the House by any repetition of this charge. Another argument was often used by the noble Secretary for the Colonies. He said, assisted emigration would interfere with voluntary emigration; surely not, if it was properly managed—surely assisted emigration was the source from which voluntary emig- ration flowed. Colonel Wyndham, for instance, or Lord Palmerston, sent out a number of emigrants: those emigrants sent back money to take their friends out, and so the stream flowed on. How was emigration to commence in poor districts where there were no wealthy proprietors, unless it was assisted? So far as the interests of Ireland were concerned, it was no matter whether the emigrants went to the United States or to the colonies. All the emigrants wanted was to be able to earn a livelihood. But, viewing the matter as a Member of the Imperial Legislature, he confessed that it appeared to him to be an exceedingly foolish and impolitic thing not to endeavour to make the colonies attractive to their own subjects. There was no doubt but that the United States were willing to absorb any amount of labour that might be sent over from Ireland. In Mackay's Western World, lately published, a most interesting account was given of that portion of the United States to which emigrants from the south of Ireland had within the last few months turned for the first time—namely, the valley of the Mississippi. Mr. Mackay gave an account of the capacity of that great country for the absorption of labour, and of the extraordinary fertility of the soil, which was cultivated at a cost of only 29s. 2d. for an acre of wheat. He described how St. Louis had increased its population from 5,000, in 1830, to 34,000, in 1847; while Cincinnati, that at the beginning of the present century had only a population of 750, had now 60,000 inhabitants. Mr. Mackay further went on to say that it was to the valley of the Mississippi the Roman Catholic Church had directed its peculiar attention, and that there were to be found there a larger number of missionary priests, and of seminaries and of members of the different religious orders, than in almost any other part of America. Thus, though in some of the most populous parts of the Union the Roman Catholic emigrant was not able to find a clergyman of his persuasion, he was sure to meet with them in those remote settlements on the very borders of the prairies. Therefore, so far as regarded Ireland, it would be a matter of indifference whether these great works were undertaken or not. In the ease of Canada, he admitted that, after the information which had been received to-day, there was little chance of Canada this year absorbing any large number of emigrants; and the testimony of the dif- ferent emigration agents all bore out that view of the case. But he did not think that the information received to-day ought to disincline them, or induce them to consider of little importance the construction of those great works which would tend to the consolidation of our North American empire; and any Gentleman who had seen the remarkable report of Mr. Robinson on the Halifax and Quebec Railway, would see at once the vast advantages which its completion would confer upon that country. For the first 100 miles out of Quebec it would run through the centre of an extended village; the greater part of the remainder of its route would be well suited for emigrants. Its advantages would be great. It would supersede the long and dangerous passage to Quebec of the St. Lawrence, which prevented vessels from making two European voyages in the season without incurring great danger; and it would secure for Halifax the trade between America and Europe. Unless it was made, Portland, which was 400 miles further to the west, would occupy that position, and the whole trade of the western provinces would be lost to Canada. There could be no doubt that the construction of that railway would employ a large number of persons, and it ran through a country peculiarly situated for emigration and for location. He therefore regretted to see that the Board of Railway Commissioners had appended to Mr. Robinson's report some disparaging observations. What might be expected from the construction of that railway, was to be inferred from the results of the Erie Canal, running through a country that was originally as wild and uninhabited as the railway was now proposed to pass through. When Governor Clinton projected that canal it was called in derision Clinton's Ditch. He, however, persevered—an almost miraculous change was effected—the forest suddenly disappeared, and towns and villages sprung up on sites which had long been the haunts of the savage, the wolf, and the bear—only twenty-four years ago forests shrouded what is now the granary of New York. The canal was already found to be too small for the traffic; and notwithstanding the enormous cost of its construction, it was paying 7 per cent upon its outlay. If any importance was attached to the preservation of the connexion between this country and Canada., he would ask the House, was it wise to leave a great work of this sort unattended to, when every person, both here and in Canada, knew very well that if Canada were annexed to the United States, the work would be commenced in five years? It depended, he repeated, upon this railway whether New York or the St. Lawrence was to be the channel of outlet for the productions of the rich and fertile country in the west. But he would now come to another colony, which was of still more importance to them—he meant that of South Africa. That colony was divided into two parts by the territory occupied by the Kafirs. The eastern division of Natal, which contained a number of square miles equal to Scotland, produced in abundance wheat, Indian corn, and other important crops. But, in addition to these, it produced the best possible sort of cotton and indigo. He wished the House to consider the importance of cotton to this country. Last year 1,700,000 packages of raw cotton were imported into England, 1,375,000 of which came from the southern States of America; that was to say, from one latitude, and subject to all the vicissitudes of a single climate. What would be the consequence to this country if the crop of cotton in America were to fail for a single year? The capacity of Natal for the production of cotton was shown by the statements of Mr. Blanc before the India Cotton Committee, who stated that the best sample produced in that colony was worth 1s. per lb.—that it produced 600 lbs. per acre—that its productive power was far greater than that of the United States—and that the colonists were most anxious that Government should encourage the emigration of labourers and capitalists, and that the Crown lands should be sold for that purpose. Let the House recollect also that one-half the exports of this country consisted of goods manufactured from raw cotton—that last year more than 25,000,000l worth of cotton goods were exported. He was sure that every gentleman in this country, particularly those residing in Lancashire and the North Riding of Yorkshire, would feel the importance of encouraging the growth of cotton in a district which was so suited to its cultivation as that of South Africa. On the other side of the Kafir territory, the soil also produced cotton and indigo, and was most fertile. And there could not be the least doubt that the location of emigrants in that district would tend to prevent the repetition of expending large sums of money to repress the outrages of the Kafirs, and he was sure that the money would be bet- ter spent in the location of Kafirs than in the movement of troops. He did not see why they should not adopt the system in that territory which had been so successfully adopted in the most successful settlement ever effected by this country—that of South Australia, where, between 1836 and 1846, 25,000 persons had been sent out, and 500,000l. worth of colonial lands sold. There could not be the least doubt that the same number of persons might be sent to Africa for a much smaller sum of money than to the remote colony of South Australia. He would now advert to the means which might be adopted by Her Majesty's Government to promote emigration from Ireland. He would take the liberty of suggesting two separate means for this. In the first instance he would suggest, as stated in a petition which he had presented that day from the board of guardians of Limerick, greater facilities than at present existed might be given to poor-law boards to borrow money for the purposes of emigration; and he was sure that it would be possible in some unions to raise money upon the security of the rates, if that system were sanctioned by law. In his opinion, the facility might be given on condition that the money must be repaid by instalments not extending longer than from five to seven years. Another means he would suggest was, that power should be given to the landlords of Ireland to borrow money on the security of their properties for short terms. He did not think it would be desirable to extend the period for repaying these loans, borrowed for emigration purposes, in the same way as was proposed to extend the drainage loans, over periods of twenty-two years. He was sure that if they did, there would be an exceedingly lavish expenditure of money—that the emigrants would not be carefully selected—and that it would tend to check the emigration that was now going on from voluntary sources. But if money were lent for five or seven years, and if the estates of the proprietors were made liable for the payment of the instalments, he believed they would find a large number of proprietors ready to take advantage of the loan—that the money would be carefully spent—and that it would work exceedingly well. Under such a system nothing could be lost to the Treasury. If the improved estate did not pay its instalments it would be sold. Now, as to the means of raising the million and a half of money which it was desirable to raise for this purpose, he must confess that the course the Government had taken, in preferring the rate in aid to an income tax, had put him in some difficulty; but he admitted that the whole expense must be put upon the Irish resources, because he believed the whole of Ireland would be benefited by the operation of the measure. There was a provision in the Rate in Aid Bill to assist emigration. If the money there provided were to be capitalised with the understanding that at the expiration of the rate in aid some new means of paying the interest out of Irish resources should be provided, he, for one, would be perfectly satisfied with the measure, and he believed it would give satisfaction to Ireland. He had now endeavoured to show that, without this measure which he suggested, there was no chance of capital finding its way into Ireland, and that the Incumbered Estates Bill would not work till the social state of Ireland was improved; and he had endeavoured to show that the social state of Ireland would improve, and would improve rapidly, by adopting the course he had suggested. He had shown that the stereotyped arguments against assisted emigration had little foundation in truth. He had appealed to the House on behalf of the poor, who prayed to be rescued from enforced idleness and slow disease. He now left the matter in the hands of Her Majesty's Government and the House. He had no right to blame those at the head of affairs, that they had not all at once found out the course which was the most prudent to adopt. But he trusted they would now turn their serious attention to this matter. He believed that Her Majesty's Government—though he could not say he believed it of every Member of the House—he believed that the Government, as a body, did not rely for the removal of Irish distress and Irish misery on famine doing its full work. But he was afraid that the idea had got into the minds of some, that they were taking "counsel of hunger." If they did so, their crime was greater; because their light was more than those Chinese parents who exposed their children to keep down the population; and, as sure as there was a God in heaven, they would not escape punishment for such tremendous wickedness.

Motion made and Question proposed— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, that She will be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before this House, Copies or Extracts of any Despatches relative to Emigration to the North American and Australian Colonies, in continuation of the Papers presented to this House in August 1848, and February 1849.

MR. FITZPATRICK

seconded the Motion.

MR. J. O'CONNELL

had listened with great interest to the speech of the hon. Member, though he did not in all cases agree with him. He had given himself much unnecessary trouble in proving that the condition of the miserable Irish would be bettered if they were removed to our colonies—in proving the capabilities of the Irish to maintain themselves, and of their disposition to work—and also in proving that there were many places which were in absolute want of the labour of the industrious sons of Ireland. But let him tell the hon. Member one significant fact which went rather against his proposition. It was this, that private capital had not overlooked the points to which he had adverted; and if it had not flowed there, it was because the capitalists saw no rational ground for risking their property. But, after all, the practical question with regard to emigration was, Where was the money to come from? The money was the thing. The hon. Member had not stated how this large sum of money was to be obtained, nor how it was to be expended, nor what number of individuals it would be necessary to take out of Ireland. The next question was, If they had the money, could they not spend it better at home? They could not take out the population of Ireland at a less sum than 20l. a head. [" Oh, oh!"] He meant to take them out and locate them. That would amount to two millions sterling for 100,000 persons, and he was satisfied that the more persons there were taken out, the greater would be the expense, for the greater would be the dificulty of finding employment for them all; and in common humanity, till that was done, they would be bound to maintain them. But suppose that only one million and a half were required, had this House shown itself so willing to advance the sum? Then there was another point; the more that was done for the people, the less they would do for themselves. [Mr. ROEBUCK: Hear, hear!] He gave the hon. Member the full benefit of that admission; and the truth of the remark was proved by what had taken place on the public works. Besides, the present system of voluntary emigration would be stopped; for if it were known that Government had agreed to provide the funds, the intending emigrants would conceal the remittances they had received from their relatives, of which several thousand pounds were now annually received in Ireland, and would reserve them for the purposes of settlement in their new country. If the House were disposed to spend this money, let them spend it at home, and they would save the lives of individuals at much smaller cost. The Amendment he intended to propose was, that instead of stopping emigration, they should rather look to the means of promoting the present disastrous emigration that was taking place, which was going on to an extent that perhaps the Government were not aware of. He could cite one instance, which had come under his own knowledge, where three frieze-coated farmers had gone together to a savings bank to draw their money, intending to emigrate. One of them drew 500l., the other 170l., and the third 190l., making altogether 860l. that was about to be taken out of the country. Now, if the House adopted his resolution, it would have the effect of keeping the people at home, for they loved their homes, and would not leave them if they had any encouragement to stay. They would spend this money upon their own soil if the House of Commons would only pledge itself to settle the long-vexed question of landlord and tenant, and give the latter a right to the fruits of his own industry. As to the security of farmers against wanton ejectment contemplated in the first clause of his Amendment, nothing was more absolutely wanted. And there he begged that the House would permit him to diverge a little from his subject, in order that he might pay a tribute of admiration to the Society of Friends. Nothing could be more Christianlike, nothing could be more admirable, than the exertions of that excellent body. Every man of right feeling must be aware of and must acknowledge it. But their exertions were not known. They were not trumpeted forth. They had neither their chairman's nor their secretary's names, nor the lists of their committees published in the newspapers, and therefore the world at large knew not the vast amount of good that they were doing and had done. But the Irish people knew it, and nothing that he (Mr. J. O'Connell) could possibly say, could adequately convey the depth of his feelings of admiration at their conduct, at their charity, at the humanity and wisdom which directed their efforts. They had endeavoured not only to save life, but to raise the condition of the unfortunate peasant; and he could only say that he felt himself perfectly inadequate to the task of expressing the high feelings of admiration which he entertained for them. To return to his subject: his hon. Friend the Member for the county of Limerick had cited some instances of the good that had been done by the efforts of individual landlords. But it was only another proof that they could not argue from a particular to a general case. He had never heard of any course of similar proceeding in which cases of individual success might not be found, even where a general rule had been excessive hardship. And although instances could be found of merciful and considerate landlords aiding their tenantry to emigrate, it was not so clearly established that the population so sent out had equally profited, and that prosperity had greeted them upon a foreign shore. On the contrary, they had heard sad tales of sickness, poverty, and death, amongst these unfortunate emigrants. His hon. Friend had proposed no specific plan. He merely wished the Government to adopt some extensive system. But he (Mr. J. O'Connell) thought the cost would be enormous, and that the money, if obtained, could be better laid out for the benefit of the people in Ireland. With regard to the second clause of his Amendment, even the newspapers which had hitherto affected to treat as exaggerations, or whose proprietors really imagined that the accounts from Ireland were merely exaggerations or symptoms of the grasping spirit which was attributed to Irishmen in that House, who were said to cry for "money, money" and nothing else—those newspapers were beginning to confess that life was wasting away in Ireland, not in or two districts, but that throughout the entire country it was threatening the very annihilation of the people. Now, would the Government and the House endeavour to put a stop to that state of things? Had hon. Gentlemen seen the charge of Mr. Serjeant Howley, delivered at Thurles to the grand jury of the county of Tipperary? Let them listen to his description:— So far as regards felony cases, attacks upon property, cases of burglary, robbery, and offences of that description, they are unusually large. You have been for years attending as grand jurors of this county, and if you carry back your recollection for a few years you will be able to remember that cases of robbery formed but a very small portion of those which you had to investigate. Dishonesty is not a vice of the Irish people; certainly not. From notions of fancied wrongs or supposed injuries, which were more immediately connected with land, there were committed very grave, serious, and numerous offences; but certainly there prevailed a spirit of honesty among the people, with regard to the attacks upon the property of others, notwithstanding that they were ready to resent some supposed injury, and to vindicate or avenge it, yet cases of theft were few indeed. Why has it been the reverse now? Whence arose the commission of this great amount of petty robberies, of interfering with property? Gentlemne, what has been the actual cause of those robberies? It is easily explained; the destitution, the famine, the wretchedness, the misery and suffering of the country, which cannot be described—that is a cause of the strongest temptation. There is no doubt, so far as it goes, that the poor-law, in giving outdoor relief, endeavours to deal with the calamity and misery so wide spread among the lower classes. But, gentlemen, every day's experience satisfies us that it is unequal to cope with that calamity, so severe and so extensive is its existence. Therefore the temptation to possess some of the property of others is so strong, and that self-preservation which is implanted in us by nature so ardent, that it over-reaches and disregards all principles of morality." ^{* * *} "The Bridewell here, which, although unsuited of course to this new state of things, is rather large, has twenty cells, and in which, previous to their trial, there were over three hundred persons huddled together. There is necessarily great danger in keeping a number of persons of that description, even if they were strong and healthy, in such a crowded bridewell for any length of time; but as many of their constitutions must be broken down by hunger and famine, with the seeds of disease upon them, of course it is a grievous circumstance to have them confined there together. In many instances the persons who have been brought before me committed those offences for the mere purpose of being sent to gaol—a place which in former times was looked upon by the people as one of punishment, and from which they turned away with disgust, but now they looked upon it as an asylum or protection from famine and poverty, as a home, and as a shelter. Notwithstanding, when we consider the condition of the people, who are receiving outdoor relief under the provisions of the poor-law in this country, there can be no doubt that the county gaol is considered as a place of shelter to the poor, wan, emaciated, and famishing people, without houses or friends to assist them, or sufficient food to sustain nature; that it is an asylum to prevent them from experiencing the horrors of famine." ^{* *} "Now, gentlemen, what is outdoor relief? It has come to my ears, and I believe your own experience will bear me out, that those who are obliged to depend upon the lodgings which they get from others, and for which they must pay by giving the better half of what they receive in outdoor relief, and thus it is that they are tempted by their poverty and suffering to attack and perpetrate those offences with which they stand charged—because, look at their wan cheeks—the mournful expression of their countenances—their wasted forms—their eyes starting from their sockets—and their limbs tottering by the slow process of want—look at their ragged garments—their wretched clothing melting off their backs. Alas! gentlemen, that is a picture which, I regret to say, we will behold in the progress of this session. So much for Tipperary. What was the condition of the west? He would state a few of the accounts that had been lately published. He had not selected them, as would be at once seen; for many cases as bad, and some even worse, might easily be discovered by any one who would carefully look for them. In Kilmoney and Ibrickane, in the county Clare, 300 families had recently been evicted; 130 deaths had taken place in the workhouse within the last month—fifty in one week. In Kilrush, in the same county, 1,500 houses had been destroyed. In the workhouse of Nenagh, county Tipperary, there were 2,800 paupers; 102 had died in one week, and 941 had died since the 24th December last. In Killimore, county Galway, thirteen people were found dead upon the roads and in the fields within three or four days. In the Ballinasloe workhouse there were 4,700 paupers—there were thirteen auxiliary workhouses; 225 people died in one week in the workhouse; ten or twelve died weekly outside the doors; and he found in the Times of that very day, the 15th of May, the statement that 860 paupers had died in the workhouse in one week. In Moycullen, twenty-seven people died in three days, and the dead lay un-buried for want of coffins. Between Black-water and Ardmore, in the county Kerry, six people died of starvation within the week, on the road side. [The hon. Member then proceeded to give extracts from Irish newspapers, confirmatory of what he had previously stated.] Again, he asked the House what should be done to save the people from such a condition? The poor-law would not do it. The noble Lord at the head of the Government had said, that it was a most extraordinary effort for the people of Ireland to raise 2,500,000l. in one year for the poor. But the effort had exhausted them, and the poor-law was bringing all down to a level of ruin. There was another point of view: if the rates were now insufficient to preserve life, how could the people be induced to consent to an increased rate for purposes of emigration? What he wanted the House to consider was, that it had not done wonders. For what it had done, he was thankful. It had acted kindly. But it was not yet discharged of its responsibility. Life was still perishing miserably, and something further should be done. He found that he was prevented by the rules of the House from moving the third paragraph of his Amendment—that the House should resolve itself into a Committee to consider the further advances for the relief of distress in Ireland; but the House ought to feel convinced of the propriety and necessity of adopting such a course itself. The people looked to the House of Commons, and considered it their natural protector; and unless it agreed in those most unchristian and cursed doctrines to which his hon. Friend had alluded—those economical doctrines put forward by men calling themselves Christians, who said the people of Ireland should be suffered to starve down to a fair proportion of population—unless the House agreed in those hideous principles, it should do something more for the Irish people to keep them from perishing by wholesale. Having spoken of the starving people, he should next speak of the condition of the country generally, and he could not do better with the subject than quote the address of the relief association of the Society of Friends in Ireland:— In losing their crop of potatoes they lost all, and sunk at once into helpless and hopeless pauperism. The small farmers still preserved hope. With great exertions, and submitting in many cases to extreme privations, they again cropped their ground. A second failure of the potatoes pauperised them also. Then came the increased poor-rates, heaviest in those districts which were least able to bear them—weighing down many who, without this last burden, might have stood their ground—alarming all by the unaccustomed pressure of an undefined taxation, and greatly reducing the small amount of capital applicable to the employment of labour. The landed proprietor, in order to provide for the payment of rates, has been obliged to leave much useful work undone—thus lessening the numbers of labourers employed. In many cases, his chief effort has been to diminish the population by a frightful system of wholesale evictions, and thus get rid of a tenantry who, under happier circumstances, would have been a source of wealth, but whom his inability to employ had converted into a heavy burden.…The paupers are merely kept alive, but their health is not maintained—their physical strength is weakened, their mental capacity is lowered, their moral character is degraded; they are hopeless themselves, and they offer no hope to their country, except in the prospect so abhorrent to humanity and Christian feeling, of their gradual extinction—by death. Many families are now suffering extreme distress, who, three years since, enjoyed the comforts and refinements of life, and administered to the necessities of those around them.…. That security to the cultivator of the soil does not generally exist in Ireland is admitted. Upon this point there is scarcely a second opinion—the laws which regulate the title to and the conveyance of land, require to be changed, so as to give the utmost freedom to its sale and transfer, so as to pass those estates whose proprietors are irretrievably ruined into other hands, and to enable those who are partially encumbered to free themselves from their difficulties by disposing of part of their landed property. Until this be effected—until the soil of Ireland be held by a clear and marketable title—until the owners be enabled to sell the whole or any part of their property, without the ruinous delays and heavy costs which now prevent them—until the creditors of a landowner have those facilities for enforcing payment of their debts to which justice entitles them—it is vain to hope that Ireland can raise herself from a state of poverty and degradation. But without those changes in the laws relating to the tenure and conveyance of land which shall open a free scope for the employment of its capital and its industry, and give ample security to the cultivators of the soil, we cannot hope for general and permanent improvement. Measures of a much more decided character are necessary to produce any permanently useful effect: the situation of the country is daily becoming worse—there is no time to lose if those now suffering are to be saved. But our paramount want is not money—it is the removal of those legal difficulties which prevent the capital of Ireland from being applied to the improved cultivation of its soil, and thus supporting the poor by the wages of honest and useful labour. No Irishman Could say that that description was overcharged. Was it to be allowed to continue? Let the noble Lord beware, lest, whilst he introduced only measures that would take a long time to become operative, he would but make a desert, and then call it peace. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) would himself propose meatures. He could not say how wild they might be deemed. They could not be more completely revolutionary than the plan of the anti-revolutionist the right hon. Member for Tamworth, or that of the other anti-revolutionist the noble Lord himself. He (Mr. J. O'Connell) said, that every man who received an income from the soil of Ireland ought to be at home there to do his duty at such a time. The landed proprietors were wanted there. The House said that the property of Ireland should support its poverty. The proprietors should then be compelled to come home—rates should be doubled or trebled upon absentees. Where there was a will there was a way, and they could easily find means to compel their presence. Let them carry out their improvement of property measure—their Drainage Bills—their reclamation of Waste Land Bills; and there was no reason why the plan of his hon. Friend should not come in as an accessory, but as a great leading measure it would not do. It would be better if the House at once appointed a Committee of the leading influential Members to go over to Ireland to examine, with their own eyes and ears, the condition of the country, and report accordingly. Much time would be saved by such a course, and they could then legislate with a knowledge of the country. But their present legislation was doing nothing to put a stop to the frightful evils that existed. With these views he begged to move the Amendment of which he had given notice.

Amendment proposed— To leave out from the word' That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words,' Emigration is, at the best, a partial, tardy, and most expensive remedy for the evils of Ireland; and that it is more immediately necessary at present to endeavour to check the disastrous emigration of the farmers and small capitalists of that country, by giving them security against wanton ejectment, and loss of the fruits of their industry and enterprise, rather than to stimulate their departure, or that of the labourers who would be employed by them if such security were given: 'But that the most immediate and pressing object for this House to consider, is the frightful progress of starvation, disease, and death, in Ireland; the total insufficiency of local means, as well as of any assistance now afforded by the State to arrest that progress; and the urgent necessity that exists for additional contributions from the State to save hundreds of thousands from perishing, and whole counties from being depopulated.'

MR. SCULLY

seconded the Amendment.

MR. MOORE

observed, that it was with great pain he saw the two Motions which had been proposed by the hon. Members sent to that House from the same county to represent the people of Ireland. What hope could the people have that their representatives could have any weight in the House, when they saw one hon. Member bringing forward a Motion to counteract, neutralise, and frustrate a Motion of another hon. Member from the same county? With respect to the first paragraph of the Amendment, that emigration was a partial, tardy, and expensive remedy—a more ill-timed, ill-judged, and incongruous statement, one more inconsistent with itself and with the facts, he never heard. Why, all remedies for grave diseases must be partial, tardy, and expensive. It was only quacks, charlatans, and impostors who pretended to cure complaints of forty years' standing by nostrums which were to act at the moment. The people of Ireland were emigrating in the most disastrous way in which emigration could take place, for those who went took with them the capital of the country. If the hon. Member for Limerick were to try his hand at persuading a half-starved Connaught peasant to reject a free passage to Australia, and to stay at home for his outdoor relief and Indian meal, he would most probably be met with the reply, "Give me the passage to Australia, and try the Indian meal yourself." But the hon. Gentleman suggested a remedy for the evils of Ireland. It was security against ejectment. That might have done very well some years back, when land had value, and when the people were not anxious to fly the country; but it would be of as much service now in Ireland as it would be to tell a soldier in California you would not dismiss him in order to prevent desertion. The Government must act at once. In the name of that hapless race who were fast vanishing from the land their ancestors had reclaimed, he called on the House to declare that by some means or another—by national taxation, or by confiscation, if they liked—Government should discharge its first duty to humanity; that this duty should be enforced, and death and desolation should be put an end to. He had received accounts the details of which were so horrifying to our common humanity, so degrading to the wretched creatures themselves, and so nauseous and disgusting in effect, that he could not bring himself to lay them before the House. Under their system of outdoor relief they had realised on this earth the terrible phantom of the poet's imagination— The nightmare Life-in-death. Unless they did something more, their present system of relief was only helping the people on their journey to the grave; and he called upon them, for the sake of their own characters before the world and posterity, to avert from themselves the shame of what must ensue should the Government persist in the course they had taken.

SIR G. GREY

would admit that there was something worthy of consideration in the Motion of the hon. Member for the county of Limerick, and thanked that hon. Gentleman for the manner in which he had brought his Motion forward. He conceived that the hon. Member for the city of Limerick had not dealt fairly with the view of his hon. Friend, who had brought forward this Motion, when he represented him as asserting that the only remedy for the evils of Ireland was emigration on a large scale, and that the national resources should be devoted to that object only. He admitted that there were parts of Ireland where there was what might be termed a congestion of the population, which might be relieved by emigration; and he thought that emigration as applicable to those parts of Ireland could not be spoken of as an evil; whatever opinion might be entertained as to the proportion of population to the whole area of the country. Looking at the vast number of persons who had emigrated from Ireland in 1848, it could not be said that the emigrants generally consisted of farmers who had capital in the country. In 1848, 250,000 persons had emigrated, the greater portion of which were Irish; and in the course of the following year, 104,000 persons had emigrated, the majority of whom were from Ireland. This number must have comprised a large proportion of persons without capital. It would, of course, be a great advantage to this country and to Ireland if all the persons who emigrated were those without capital—if the emigrants only carried with them to distant lands their labour; but the House must not forget the objection which our colonies made to receiving vast numbers of persons in a state of utter helplessness, wretchedness, and disease; and he believed that nothing could tend more to render the colonies willing to participate in any system of emigration than the practice of sending out as emigrants mixed classes, consisting both of those who had capital, and were able to employ labour, and of those who only possessed their labour—a most valuable capital to them. The House should also bear in mind the remarkable fact that no less than half a million of money had been remitted in one year from America by Irish emigrants for the purpose of enabling their friends to follow them to that country. That was a source of assistance perfectly unobjectionable; no disadvantage could accrue from the assistance thus afforded. The hon. Member for the city of Limerick, deprecating emigration, had stated the expense of it very much beyond that which it really was. Persons might emigrate, with very proper provision for their comfort, at about 5l. per head; but the hon. Member had stated it at about four times that amount. He trusted that nothing which should pass in that debate would interfere with the stream of emigration which was setting in most usefully from some districts of Ireland; and, without at all interfering with the means which were now in operation, he could assure the hon. Member for the county of Limerick that there would be no indisposition on the part of Her Majesty's Government to consider any proposal which could be made for assisting that emigration. He understood the hon. Gentleman to make two proposals: the first, that increased powers should be given to the boards of guardians, of advancing from the rates; and increased powers of borrowing, on the security of the rates, money to be applied to the purposes of emigration; and he understood that the hon. Gentleman believed private individuals were willing to advance money on that security. Now, if in Committee upon the amended Poor Law Bill, the suggestion of the hon. Member should be embodied in a clause, he could only say that the Government would give it a fair consideration. It certainly would be the adoption of no new principle; but the extension of powers which had already been given, but which had proved inefficient. Existing powers of the same sort were conferred by several Acts. By the 1 and 2 Vict. c. 56, s. 51, on the application of the guardians, the ratepayers might be assembled, and if a majority agreed, a rate might he made not exceeding 1s. in the pound for a year, for the purpose of assisting emigration; but that emigration was limited to the British colonies; and he thought that perhaps that limitation might be usefully removed, as well as the necessity of obtaining the consent of a majority of the ratepayers, which no doubt might he a serious obstacle to the successful operation of the measure. He found by a return which he had obtained, that in 1848 only twenty-seven persons emigrated under that provision. By the 6th and 7th Vict. c. 92, two-thirds of the guardians, subject to the regulations of the Commissioners and the sanction of Her Majesty's Government, were empowered to make a rate for the same purpose not exceeding 6d. in the pound; but that emigration was also limited to the British colonies; and, in fact, only seven persons had in 1848 availed themselves of that Act; but it had been made use of in promoting a very useful class of emigration, the emigration of destitute orphans from the workhouses. By the 10th Vict., c. 31, s. 14, provision was made enabling the boards of guardians to afford aid towards emigration to the occupiers of land, upon their surrendering the land, all the rent being forgiven, and the landlord having paid two-thirds of the expense; and about sixty-seven persons, in 1848, had emigrated under the provisions of that clause. It was clear, that the provisions of the existing poor-law, in this respect, were in a great measure inoperative; and if the experience which his hon. Friend opposite possessed enabled him to suggest any improvement in those provisions which would render them efficient, and promote emigration in a manner which they were designed to accomplish, he should be most happy to see that result, which would be in accordance with the expressed intentions of Parliament. The next suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman was, that power should be given to landed proprietors to borrow money, to be applied to emigration on the same principle as that in which they were enabled to borrow it for land improvements. The obvious objection to that proposal was, that it would be extremely difficult to apply the rule with fairness to all parties, which was applied on the case of land improvements, by making the loan a charge on the estate. The advantage of emigration was more direct to the immediate owner, though it might not produce any permanent improvement in the property; and the immediate owner would be more ready to spend money upon emigration than on those improvements, the benefit of which would not be so immediate, but would be more lasting. But the hon. Gentleman proposed to meet that objection by limiting the period of repayment to five instead of twenty-two years; and, to some extent, no doubt, that course would meet the objection. He did not understand the hon. Gentleman to propose that any part of the money which had already been appropriated for the purpose of land improvements should be applied to emigration; and he certainly thought, that to divert any portion of the sum which had been so appropriated, would be doing very little for the object which the hon. Member had in view, and would be withdrawing that money from an object in which the whole of it might be spent with great advantage to that country. But the proposal to give landed proprietors powers of borrowing money for the purpose of emigration, was one which, if embodied in a Bill, would meet with the careful attention of Her Majesty's Government. As to the employment of the money which had been already appropriated, he believed that 20,000 was the number now actually employed and receiving wages out of the money already issued to landed proprietors, and these 20,000 were of course ablebodied persons, representing families, averaging four persons to each one so employed. As to our colonies, he quite agreed with the hon. Gentleman that they would derive great benefit from a well-conducted system of emigration; and when he said a well-conducted system, he meant a system which should include not only emigrants of the poorest class, but those also who had the means of employing labour. It was not necessary for him to say more at the present time on the Motion of the hon. Gentleman opposite, because the hon. Gentleman had not submitted any Motion upon which the opinion of the House could be taken, but had concluded with a formal Motion only; and when the proposals of the hon. Gentleman were before the House in a practical shape, that would be the time for expressing an opinion upon those distinct propositions so submitted. As to the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the city of Limerick, he would only say a few words. He thought that, as the hon. Member had complained unfairly of the hon. Gentleman opposite for bringing forward emigration as the sole remedy for the evils of Ireland, so he had erred in a different direction by denying that emigration, as one means of relief, might be of great advantage to that country. The hon. Member had stated, with great truth, that the distress in Ireland was almost unprecedented; but he had also unnecessarily exaggerated that distress; for he had said that, in the workhouse of Ballinasloe the deaths had amounted to 500 in one week, and in the succeeding week to above 800; but he (Sir G. Grey) learnt from the best authority—the noble Lord who had devoted himself with so much energy to the relief of distress in that district—that the cholera had broken out there, and that many persons were brought in a dying state into the workhouse, in consequence of which, in one week, between 400 and 500 persons did die in the workhouse; but in the succeeding week the number was much diminished, and by the last accounts the deaths were not more than six per day. It was unhappily quite unnecessary to exaggerate that distress; the statement of it made in the valuable report of the Society of Friends was only too true a picture. But when the hon. Member said that the responsibility of all that distress rested on the Imperial Parliament, he must protest against any such doctrine. Neither the Imperial Parliament nor Government could take upon themselves the responsibility of averting all the consequences of famine which was the result of natural causes. They might attempt to mitigate them; and if the hon. Member had read the paragraph preceding that which he did read from the report of the Society of Friends, he would not have charged the Government or the Legislature with inattention to the distress of Ireland. [The right hon. Baronet then read a passage which stated that the large amount of money expended by the Government and other contributors had probably prevented many persons from dying of starvation.] Really, it was too much to say that because misery and distress still existed, therefore all that money had been thrown away. [Mr. J. O'CONNELL: I did not say so.] He did not believe that more could have been done than there had been to mitigate that distress; but the hon. Gentleman called upon them to make further advances now. Advances had been made, and were still being made, for the purpose of supplying aid in the districts where the distress was the greatest; but the hon. Member said they ought to have looked to the opinion expressed in the report of the Society of Friends, and to have given security to the cultivator of the soil. Now, what did the Society of Friends say? They said that the laws which regulated the title to land required alteration—that freedom ought to be given to the sale of estates—that incumbered proprietors ought to have facilities for getting rid of their land—and that until the soil of Ireland was held by a clear and marketable title, until creditors had the means of enforcing payment by sale of the estates of the debtor, it was in vain to hope that Ireland could be raised from the state of poverty and misery into which she was plunged; that the paramount want of Ireland was not money, but the removal of the legal difficulties which prevented the sale of land. He was convinced that it was by the adoption of such measures that Parliament could best interfere; in the meantime, doubtless, they were bound to do what they could to mitigate existing distress; and he trusted that means would still be found sufficient to mitigate that distress to a great extent. The true remedy was to be found in the land being placed in the hands of persons with capital capable of employing labour in the improvement of the soil, and in the payment of wages, which would enable the labour- ing population to live in comfort—in the creation of a class of substantial tenant farmers and of agricultural labourers. It might he long before such a system could be perfectly established; but that was the object at which they ought to aim; and he trusted that in the end it might be accomplished.

MR. J. O'CONNELL

said, the right hon. Baronet had misunderstood him in supposing he had said that the money contributed had been thrown away. He, on the contrary, admitted it had done much good; but he conceived it to be wholly inadequate to the occasion.

MR. E. B. ROCHE

believed the proposal of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the county of Limerick, as explained by the right hon. Baronet, to be a practical delusion. He was inclined to think, with his hon. Friend the Member for the city of Limerick, that the expense of emigration would be 20l. a head. They might possibly find a few individuals who might be sent to our colonies for 5l.; but if they meant emigration to be carried on upon a large scale, so as to produce an effect upon the present state of Ireland, then they must be prepared not only to send them to the colonies, but have some arrangements made for them on their arrival. It would not suffice to sweep the workhouses of Ireland, and fling their contents wholesale upon another country. In fact, to do any good, there must be colonisation as well as emigration. With the landlords and farmers bankrupt, and the poor starving, what would be the benefit of any partial system of emigration? Though the harvest prospects were good in the south, the distress of the labouring population there was greater than he ever remembered it; the workhouses were crowded, so that a frightful epidemic had broken out. Unless some means were adopted to give employment to the ablebodied poor, Mr. Twisleton's prophecy would be fulfilled, and the Legislature would be a party to the ruin of a great nation. One thing recommended in the Amendment, the security of tenure, was absolutely necessary. Much was said of the want of capital in Ireland; and no wonder, when there was no security of tenure. Though the landlords were now prepared to do their duty, they had neglected it heretofore by resolving in a body not to give leases to Catholic tenants. The only class now in Ireland who had capital was the working farmers. Give them security, and induce them to lay out their capital on the land, and they would do much, though not all, for the welfare of the country. Ireland had never been allowed to govern herself, or develop her own energies; and if, as the hon. Member for Sheffield proposed, all further advances were refused, Ireland would with one voice demand to be allowed to govern herself. If England repudiated her, she would repudiate the legislative Union. It was impossible to carry out emigration on a sufficiently large scale to be of any use; therefore, whatever tropical remedies were proposed, they ought to be immediate.

MR. F. O'CONNOR

said, the proposition of the hon. Member for the county of Limerick very much reminded him of the practice adopted by some persons to get rid of an old dog-that of sending him out to get lost. The parallel drawn between Connaught and Belgium was most defective, as in the latter country, after deducting the 600,000 employed in manufactures, there was still a larger proportionate number supported on the soil. The hon. Gentleman and his class were not averse to the expatriation of the poor; but they lamented over the departure of capital. The fact was, as the hon. Member for Manchester had stated, that Ireland was not half populated. The money locked up in the savings hanks amounted to 400,000l.—the strongest possible proof of the want of confidence in the landlords. Let them give their tenants leases, and every farthing of that money would be applied to the cultivation of the soil. Because the landlords chose to keep their estates but half cultivated, were the people to be thrust out by wholesale on that account? No one could say the land in Ireland was sterile. There were a few good landlords, such as the hon. Member for Northamptonshire, but they were the exception; and it was through the bad landlords that the House received its impression of the Irish people. The new crop of paupers had been created by the landlords ousting those tenants whose leases had expired, and who no longer possessed the franchise. Hence they had sacrificed the welfare of the country, and their own real interests, to their political feelings. But he had predicted what would be the effect of free trade; and hitherto the Irish landlords had not had more than a taste of it, and the English landlords had not felt it at all. It was impossible now to go back to protection; but the Irish Members had nobody but themselves to thank, for they were led up in a body, at any one's bidding, to vote for free trade, and now they would vote against it to a man. Last year he had foretold the deficient harvest, and said that Canada would be lost. The one prediction had been verified, the other was on the eve of fulfilment; and if Ireland were lost too, it would be the fault of the English and Irish landlords. After passing Coercion Bills, and taking away the last remnant of the constitution, could they suppose the people would lie down and die? It would be well if Ireland was not lost to this country within a twelvemonth. He would tell the manufacturers that Ireland might have been made a better customer than all our colonies put together; but the landlords, and the Government, by permitting them to do so, had destroyed her both as a consumer and a producer. It was true that Ireland had produced hodmen and wharfingers for England; but she had produced also, he was sorry to say, soldiers and sailors for England, and statesmen and poets. [An Hon. MEMBER: And agitators too.] Yes, and agitators too—a class of men who, he was sorry to say, took exceedingly good care of themselves while pretending to devote themselves to the public good. The present degradation of Ireland was owing, more than anything else, to that fatal system of agitation which had kept the country in a state of excitement, without directing it to any valuable object. He rejoiced that that course of agitation was now at an end. He would tell Ministers that it would be impossible for them to preserve Ireland, and difficult to preserve England, amidst the storms and conflicts prevailing in every country of Europe, if they did not compel the landlords to do their duty to the people. It was monstrous to see such men coming down and opposing a rate in aid, when they would not stir one step in a right direction for relieving the distresses of the country. Ireland had been, might be, and yet would be a great country; but not under the rule of her present landlords. Were absentees compelled to to do their duty, there would be much less of complaint. He regretted that the rate in aid, which he had supported in every stage, had not been five shillings, instead of sixpence; that would have been a step towards compelling the landlords to do their duty. He did not anticipate much benefit from the Incumbered Estates Bill, for neither the landlords nor the mortgagees would consent to sell.

SIR J. YOUNG

said, the hon. Gentleman, according to his own account, had predicted everything that occurred for the last four years; but if he were a prophet, he had certainly never been believed in his own country. He (Sir J. Young) denied that the evils of Ireland were at all attributable to free trade; instead of an injury, it had been a great benefit to Ireland, more than to any other part of the empire. The only product of the soil which had yielded the best return was flax, and that had not been protected. Nevertheless, the county he represented (Cavan), was in a state of the greatest distress; but this was mainly attributable to the loss of the potato, many of the farmers having lost three-fourths of their produce. The evil had been aggravated by the commercial depression in this country, and by the disturbed state of the Continent. The distress of Cavan had not been caused by the poor-laws; the rates, varying from 3s. to 4s., had been paid; and the burden was not very heavy. The proportion of agricultural labourers throughout the county was as one to every nine acres, and as one to seven in some districts, while in England it was as one to every thirty-three cultivated acres. Now, though he believed that the landlords generally were anxious to give employment to the people, so as to prevent them from going into the workhouse, it was totally out of their power to do so, the number of labourers being so great in proportion to the means of giving them employment. They therefore looked to emigration as the best, the surest, and almost the only resource in the present condition of Ireland. He believed that a small amount of emigration, as compared with the population, would ease the pressure on the labour market, and would raise the condition of the labouring class materially. He believed that in no part of Ireland was emigration so necessary as in those places where it was thought least necessary—namely in Leinster and Ulster. The condition of Scotland a century ago was not unlike that of Ireland at the present moment. It was the boast of a statesman of that day that he had made brave and intrepid soldiers of those who were till then inveterately disaffected to the Crown of England. It was not necessary to make the Irish brave and intrepid—but they might be made fellow-citizens and prosperous subjects of this empire. He advocated this measure because he had not much faith in the other expedients which had been proposed. He did not attach much importance to the small area rating or to a labour rate. In legislating for Ireland generally they should not attempt to stimulate any particular class, or even the Government, to take care of the people, because there was only one class that could take this care upon them, and that class was the people themselves. He had confidence in the energies of the people of Ireland. He thought that education should be promoted by all means, that they should elevate the moral standard of the people, that they should leave industry free and unfettered. By these means, he was perfectly confident, the people of Ireland would right themselves sooner, and better, and more effectually, than could be done through the interposition of either landlords or the Government.

MR. SCULLY

considered that emigration was a useless measure for Ireland as long as so much unproductive land remained at home which was capable of being brought into cultivation. He could bear testimony to the accuracy of the picture drawn by his hon. Friend the Member for the city of Limerick respecting the condition of the people in that county and in the neighbouring county of Tipperary. The fields were untilled, the lands were unstocked, and the roads were filled with men, women, and children, whose occupation was that of breaking stones. Emigration in connection with other measures might be useful; but the question to be decided at the present moment was a question of life and death, and he should therefore give his warmest support to the Amendment of his hon. Friend.

MR. BOURKE

believed that the question of emigration was of paramount importance to the people of Ireland. It was a mistake to suppose that the boards of guardians would not be able to raise money on the security of the rates for the purpose of promoting emigration. His experience of parties who had money to lend was quite the contrary. It seemed surprising to him that there should be such disparity in the statements respecting the cost of emigration. He believed that the emigration from Ireland had cost under 5l a head, and that the noble Viscount the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, who had done so mach for the improvement of his tenantry, had sent out persons from his estate under 4l. 10s. a head. It was said that it was now too late for emigration. He did not agree in that opinion, for if carried out at once, emigration would bear immediate fruit and confer instant benefit. He should support the scheme of his hon. Friend whenever he brought it before the House, and he believed that no measure was likely to be so popular amongst all classes in Ireland.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided; Ayes 45, Noes 10: Majority 35.

List of the AYES.
Adare, Visct.	Hill, Lord M.
Anstey, T. C.	Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of	Howard, Lord E.
	Humphery, Ald.
Bass, M. T.	Jones, Capt.
Blackall, S. W.	Kershaw, J.
Bourke, R. S.	Labouchere, rt. hon. H.
Bremridge, R.	Lincoln, Earl of
Broadwood, H.	Magan, W. H.
Brockman, E. D.	Napier, J.
Clay, J.	Pearson, C.
Cobden, R.	Power, N.
Cubitt, W.	Salwey, Col.
Denison, W. J.	Sandars, G.
Duncuft, J.	Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.
Ferguson, Sir R. A.	Tancred, H. W.
Fitzpatrick, rt. hon. J. W.	Thompson, Col.
Fox, W. J.	Thornely, T.
Grace, O. D. J.	Trelawny, J. S.
Greenall, G.	Wilson, J.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.	Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Gwyn, H.
Hawes, B.	TELLERS.
Heald, J.	Monsell, W.
Henry, A.	Young, Sir J.

List of the NOES.
Devereux, J. T.	Reynolds, J.
Fagan, W.	Scrope, G. P.
Meagher, T.	Scully, F.
Moore, G. H.
O'Connor, F.	TELLERS.
O'Flaherty, A.	O'Connell, J.
Rawdon, Col.	Roche, E. B.

Main Question put, and agreed to.