SUPPLY. (Hansard, 4 June 1849)

MR. VERNON SMITH
excused himself for making an objection upon the report, which he had not offered in Committee of Supply, on the ground that the estimates had been so rapidly pushed through on the day immediately after the holidays, that a fair opportunity had not been afforded to him. There was a strong feeling abroad in favour of examination into those matters, and of economy, although it might not be participated in within the walls of that House; and he thought Her Majesty's Government would have done well to pay some deference to that feeling. This vote was one of the cases in which a complete disregard had been shown to the report of the Committee of last year, which was to the effect that As the duties of the persons for whose salaries this vote was proposed, was confined to the 1122 management of ecclesiastical property, the charge might fairly he defrayed altogether from the funds of the commission. He contended that there was no better reason for placing this vote upon the public estimate, than any other charge for the management of private property.

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
said, that his right hon. Friend was not quite correct in saying that the estimates had been brought in on the first day after the recess, for, an objection having been made, they were not brought in until the day following. With respect to this vote, he had given the reason for it several times in that House; and it had been for several years under the consideration of Parliament, and approved of. The ground upon which he had always rested this vote was the reason stated to him by the late Archbishop of Canterbury, after the appointment of the Ecclesiastical Commission. He (Lord J. Russell) had pointed out to the Archbishop the example of Queen Anne's Bounty, the expense of which was defrayed out of the funds of that bounty; but the Archbishop represented, and truly represented, that when that bounty was given, funds belonging to the Crown were surrendered to the Church, and out of those funds the Church could well afford to defray the expense; but that in this case there was no proposition to increase the funds of the Church. What was now proposed was not to augment the funds of the Church, but to make a different distribution, which was thought to be better as concerned a number of congregations and the lay interests of the community. Such being the case, it appeared that the public should bear the expense, rather than the special funds of the Church. That had been the statement of the Archbishop, and upon that representation he (Lord J. Russell) had, in 1836, placed the votes upon the estimates for the year. As the case stood at present, the House would consider what the consequence would be of requiring this vote to be defrayed out of ecclesiastical funds. It would be, that, pro tanto, those funds must be diminished, which were now applicable to the increase of spiritual instruction in many populous parishes. If there was a wish for economy abroad, there prevailed likewise a strong feeling in the public mind that the spiritual instruction of the people should be provided for by a distribution of ecclesiastical districts. Of course, then, the moans of supplying these spiritual wants would be lessened by this sum of 3,540l. He thought, 1123 however, that should it he found that the funds of the Church were very considerably increased owing to the different management of the property, and that in future years a considerable sum should remain at the disposal of the commission, then it might be right to alter the original arrangement, and to place a great part, perhaps the whole, of the expense of this commission upon the ecclesiastical funds.

§ MR. HENLEY
said, that some years ago there was a great call for church extension, and the plan adopted was to lay violent hands on the property of other people. Now, having robbed them, the proposition was to make them pay for the distribution of the plunder. Now, without going into the question whether the spoliation had been right or wrong, those who had committed, it had no right to complain of paying a small sum for the distribution of the spoil.

MR. VERNON SMITH
would not press his proposition to a division.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of 125,000l. for Education, Science, and Art,

§ MR. EWART
trusted the Government would assent to the very reasonable proposition he had to make, which was— That a statement be made by a Minister of the Crown of the appropriation and results of the sums voted for education, as well as of the sums voted for the promotion of literature, science, and art, on the introduction of the class of estimates especially devoted to those subjects. Statements were made for the Army and Navy Estimates, and he could not see why a statement should not be made on the more important subject of education, and also of the sums appropriated to science and art. He trusted another year would not elapse without such a statement being made to Parliament.

§ SIR G. GREY
said, that he held a document in his hand, giving an account of the expenditure of the vote for education upon schools and teachers. The information desired by the hon. Member was given in an abridged form in the Minutes of the Committee, but the items of detail would be too numerous to be given in the Votes. He had prepared a statement with regard to the last year's vote for education; but it was, in fact, only an abridgment of details which were given by the Committee of Council on Education; and the House would observe, that this made the great difference between this vote, and the votes for the Army, the Navy, and the Ordnance. There had been expended, for the 1124 erection of 188 and the enlargement or improvement of 129 elementary schools, and for supplying 460 such schools with books and maps at a reduced price, 47,421l.; for the erection of three training schools for schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, 9,300l.; towards the erection of a Government training school at Kneller Hall for schoolmasters in union workhouses and in schools connected with public establishments, 18,546l.; for the stipends of pupil teachers (1,783 boys and 829 girls) apprenticed to the masters or mistresses of elementary schools, and for gratuities to those masters and mistresses for instructing them, 18,608l.; for augmenting the salaries of 63 schoolmasters and five schoolmistresses who obtained certificates of merit in 1847–8, 1,492l.; to ten training schools for nearly 200 students not having resided less than one year, who on leaving the institution obtained certificates of merit, 4,825l.; for grants to the National Society, British and Foreign School Society, and the Education Committee of the Church of Scotland, towards the expenses of training schools, 3,750l.; and towards the expense of emigration as a reward to hoys from ragged schools, 1,500l. He could add that there was good reason to hope that the plan adopted was improving the character and attainments of schoolmasters and schoolmistresses, and raising the standard of education in the schools of the country.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of 1,500l. for the National Gallery,

MR. VERNON SMITH
wished to know whether the Government had made any better arrangement for the deposit of the pictures presented to the country by the late Mr. Vernon, than the cellar under the National Gallery, where the best pictures were hardly perceptible against the light; and could not in fact be seen at all, unless people went up quite close? Had the Government made any arrangement with the Royal Academy, or for the building of another National Gallery?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
replied, that he would be glad if better accommodation could be provided for the paintings; and the only reason why it was not so provided was, that it would occasion a greater outlay than in the present state of affairs he felt himself warranted in proposing.
Vote agreed to, as were the remaining ones.