HC Deb 24 July 1849 vol 107 cc897-920
LORD ASHLEY

then rose to bring under the notice of the House the state of a portion of the juvenile population of the metropolis. If he were asked why he had brought forward his Motion at so late a period of the Session, he must plead as his excuse his utter lack of opportunity to lay the subject before the House, owing to the interposition of other business day after day. But he nevertheless entertained a very strong desire that he should have it in his power to do so, not only on account of those whose claims he represented, but for the purpose of showing the House to what profitable use the small grant he had obtained last Session had been turned, and the prospects of success their past experience might encourage them to cherish. He had another reason, besides, for pressing the subject on the attention of the House—that he was anxious to excite some interest, and perhaps discussion, on the preventive, as contrasted with the reformatory system. Prison discipline seemed a favourite topic for all writers and speakers; and endless inquiries had been entered into with respect to the separate, the solitary, and the associated system of punishment, and with respect to summary jurisdiction and flogging and confinement. But he thought that there was really a system preliminary to them all, and one which was economical and efficient. If he could show that the preventive system was not only economical and efficient, but also truly humane, he would show enough to rouse every well-wisher of the people to a sense of the importance of the subject, whether viewed with reference to policy or religion. Last year he stated the number of that class whose interests he then attempted to represent at 30,000. He believed that estimate was very much under the mark. He then described the temptations to which they were exposed, and the great dangers which threatened society from the existence of that class. In the statement he should have to make that night, he would not be able to show any great improvement in these details. Any such improvement must arise from the application of another principle. So long as people were left in their present sanitary state, confined in courts and alleys, their dens and lurking places—so long as they were crowded together in the styes from which they found it impossible to escape, even so long they could not hope for any improvement in the social and physical condition of the people. But what he wished to bring under the notice of the House was the increase of schools, the improvement of the pupils, and the well-grounded prospects for the future. He wished to show the condition of the metropolis; and for that purpose would state the number taken into custody by the metropolitan police in 1847, as contrasted with the number taken into custody in 1848. In 1847, 41,479 males were taken into custody, of whom 8,405 were under 20 years of age, 3,228 between 10 and 15, and 306 under 10. In 1848, 42,933 males were taken into custody; of whom 8,776 were under 20 years of age, 3,604 between 10 and 15, and 312 under 10. The total increase in 1848 of males taken into custody was 1,4,54, of whom one half was under 20 years of age. But of those who had been taken into custody under 10 years of age—the class which chiefly attended the ragged schools—there had been an increase of only six. The whole number of males taken into custody between 10 and 20, a period of 10 years, was 12,691; between 25 and 50, a period of 25 years, 18,591; only one-third more. But, looking at the num-her of those tried and convicted, there appeared a great disproportion. Between 10 and 20, the males tried and convicted were 1,237, whereas the males tried and convicted between 25 and 50 were only 1,059. The same rule prevailed in Manchester, to which he simply referred as a very large town, the returns being characterised by the same accuracy as those for the metropolis. There were taken into custody in Manchester 1,037 males between 10 and 20, and 2,157 between 25 and 50. But there were tried and convicted 165 between 10 and 20; 193 between 25 and 50. Now, these returns showed the preponderating amount of juvenile delinquency. They showed also the possibility of applying the preventive system. The crimes were perpetrated at a period of life when the parties were open to the best influences, and were most capable of receiving permanent impressions. It was also clear that the seeds of crime were sown in early life, and would not, if they were then rooted out, grow up into rank maturity. Being anxious to ascertain the opinions of persons best acquainted with the subject, he circulated among persons having the charge of ragged schools, missionaries, and others, this question, "Do many adult males become criminals for the first time after 20 years of age?" From 43 committees he received the answer, "Very few." One said, "A small proportion, and these chiefly through drunkenness and want of employment. In London, many country people, and the Irish, become criminals after 20 years of age, and those chiefly from the above-mentioned causes." Another said, "I should say not one in fifty. "Another, "I believe that among the lowest classes of society hardly any become criminal for the first time after 20 years of age." Such were the conclusions to which those persons were led, whose opinion he had sought as being most conversant with the circumstances of the poorer classes. Now, what was the condition of those to whom he wished the preventive system applied? That large class roaming over the streets of London, in habits, manners, feelings, and pursuits totally unlike anything with which people were acquainted in ordinary life, formed a seed-plot for three-fourths of the crimes of fraud and violence which prevailed in this metropolis; and what he said of the metropolis he said of every great city in the empire. A short time ago he was anxious to perceive with his own eyes what was the condition of these people—what was the state of their abodes, their lairs, their retreats for the night. He and others perambulated the metropolis. They dived into its recesses. The House would be surprised to hear what was the condition in which they found those young people. Most of them were living in the dry arches of houses not finished, inaccessible except by an aperture only large enough to admit the body of a man. When a lantern was thrust in, six or eight, 10 or 12 people, might be found lying together. Of those whom they found thus lodged, they invited a great number to come the following day, and then an examination was instituted. The number examined Was 33. Their ages varied from 12 to 18, and some were younger; 24 had no parents; six had one; three had step-mothers; 20 had no shirts; nine no shoes; 12 had been once in prison; three twice; three four times; one eight times; and one (only 14 years old) 12 times. The physical condition of these children was exceedingly horrible; they were a prey to vermin; they were troubled with itch; they were begrimed with dirt; not a few were suffering from sickness; and two or three days afterwards two died from disease and the effects of starvation. He had privately examined eight or ten. He was anxious to obtain from them the truth. He examined them separately, taking them into a room alone. He said, "I am going to ask you a variety of questions, to which I trust you will give me true answers, and I, on my part, will undertake to answer any question you may put to me." They thought that a fair bargain, He put to several of them the question, "How often have you slept in a bed during the last three years?" One said perhaps 12 times; another three times; another could not remember that he ever had done so. He asked them how they passed the night in winter. They said, "We lie eight or ton together to keep ourselves warm." He entered on the subject of their employments and modes of living. They fairly confessed they had no means of subsistence but begging and stealing. The only way of earning a penny in a legitimate way was by picking up old bones. But they fairly acknowledged for themselves and others scattered over the town, with whom they professed themselves acquainted, that they had not and could not have any other means of sub- sistence than by begging and stealing. A large proportion of these young persons were at a most dangerous age for society. He had formerly met one very remarkable instance of a boy, past 17. He was struck at discovering that the boy knew the French language, and asked an account of his life. He said he had been in France at the time of the revolution, and had fought in the barricades. He and his mother had gone to Paris some four or five years ago. He there got into some employment; but, as the political atmosphere became warm, he yielded to its influence, and being enticed by French boys, his companions, he joined in the general warfare, fought at the barricades, was taken prisoner, tried, sentenced to punishment; and, at the expiration of his sentence, shipped for England. There were hundreds and thousands of others in London, as capable of being employed for the worst purposes as the Garde Mobile of Paris. And therefore it was that, for the peace of society, no less than its honour, he would direct the attention of the House to the subject. Again, what was the moral condition of those persons? A large proportion of them (it was no fault of theirs) did not recognise the distinctive rights of meum and tuum. Property appeared to them to be only the aggregate of plunder. They held that everything which was possessed was common stock; that he who got most was the cleverest fellow, and that every one had a right to abstract from that stock what he could by his own ingenuity. Was it matter of surprise that they entertained those notions, which were instilled into their minds from the time they were able to creep on all fours—that not only did they disregard all the rights of property, but gloried in doing so, unless they thought the avowal would bring them within the grasp of the law. To illustrate their low state of morality, and to show how utterly shameless they were in speaking on these subjects, he would mention what had passed at a ragged school to which 14 or 15 boys, having presented themselves on a Sunday evening, were admitted as they came. They sat down and the lesson proceeded. The clock struck eight. They all rose and went out, with the exception of one who lagged behind. The master took him by the arm and said—"You must remain; the lesson is not over." The reply was, "We must go to business." The master inquired what business? "Why, don't you see it's eight o'clock. We must go catch them as they come out of the chapels." It was necessary for them, according to the remark of this boy, to go at a certain time in pursuit of their calling. They had no remorse or shame in making the avowal, because they believed that there were no other means of saving themselves from starvation. He recollected a very graphic remark made by one of those children in perfect simplicity, but which yet showed the horrors of their position. The master had been pointing out to him the terrors of punishment in after-life. The remark of the boy was—" That may be so, but I don't think it can be any worse than this world has been to me." Such was the condition of hundreds and thousands. It was necessary for the peace of society that those horrors should be mitigated; but, looking to higher considerations, every one must feel the duty as well as the necessity which required that means should be taken to carry the knowledge of the Gospel to those classes. There were two modes of dealing with those cases: first, to wait till they committed crime; then to bring them to justice, and either transport them or confine them in gaol. The other was to take a preventive course, and anticipate the gaoler and the hangman by a system of wholesome discipline. It had been said in various instances that the case was a hopeless one, and there was nothing but punishment for such as these. He distrusted prison discipline altogether, he had no faith in it as a preventive, or as a mode generally of reforming individuals. Could hon. Members fail to observe how prison discipline had increased in severity of late years, and yet crime had not decreased in proportion? Nor could it decrease in proportion; neither would their prison discipline become effective for its purpose. That system might possibly become effective in certain cases—in the cases of those who had offended in wantonness, or who, on quitting gaol, had resources of their own, or friends on whom to rely. But, for the great mass of those who passed through the gaols, and who were afterwards discharged to recommence the struggle of life, what was usually known as the reformatory system had no effect beyond the walls. It was not his intention to question the utility of the institution at Pentonville, least of all whilst it had the advantage of the services of the present chaplain, of whose exertions for the reformation of offenders it was impossible to speak too highly. Pentonville prison had produced some remarkable and gratifying instances of reformation; but in almost all those cases the parties reformed had found profitable employment in the colonies. To understand how prison discipline failed as a reformatory system, it was only necessary to reflect on the fate of a person committed to gaol. In the first place, there was the long detention before trial, followed in some cases by imprisonment after conviction. Now, it was well known that persons so circumstanced usually came out of prison ten times worse than they were when they entered it. The testimony of those who could speak with authority was conclusive upon this point. The chaplain of the Preston House of Correction, said— In 1840, I stated that, 'whether led astray for a moment by bad companions, or assailed by overpowering temptations, or driven by distress and hunger, or trained to vagabond and thievish practices, and, in all cases, with a mind totally unformed by education and uninfluenced by religion, the child of 14, or 10, or even eight years old, is now turned into a yard or 'day-room,' tenanted by 40 or 50 older criminals. Once here, Jus terrors of a prison soon vanish before the levity and merriment of his new companions. He finds them great objects of admiration; and many are the plunderers who can relate the most attractive stories of successful and daring robbery. Excited by these tales, he soon becomes ambitious of imitating the heroes of them. He is instructed in the arcana of the dreadful calling which he has entered upon by some adept in the craft, and thus a few weeks, or even a few days, before trial have sufficed to convert the child, who, until the verdict pronounced at that solemnity, was accounted innocent in the eye of the law, into a hardened profligate, prepared and tutored for a course of iniquity, and determined to run it. I could furnish a hundred histories of misery and crime springing from the pestiferous society of the untried felons' ward. It was notorious that, in many of these prison yards, the inmates were initiated into all the details connected with thieving. It was customary to have all the characters of a thieves' drama enacted by boys. This account was given by one of the youngsters: "We have," said he, "afterfive o'clock, our time to ourselves; then there is the pickpocket, the gentleman, the lady, the policeman, and the magistrate. The gentleman walks about with a pocket-handkerchief hanging out of his pocket; and the lady, with her chains; they then show us the best and newest way of doing the business." The chaplain of Pentonville Prison remarked that— It is not possible to convey to the mind of the reader any adequate idea of the extent of the corruption of mind, feeling, and character, or of the completeness of the education in crime, which goes on in the common gaols of the country, especially before trial. Lord Denman was of the same opinion. In his evidence given before a Committee of the House of Lords, his Lordship said— I am not reconciled to summary convictions, but I highly approve of frequent courts to try petty offenders of all ages promptly on the spot. …"As long, however, as juvenile offenders are mixed up in our gaols with adults, no effectual improvement can take place. He heartily concurred with Lord Denman in his suggestion respecting the establishment of courts for the trial of petty offences, and in his objection to increase summary convictions, because he wished the punishment of crime to be as tedious and expensive as possible, being of opinion that no remedy would be applied until the grievance became intolerable. Now, even on the very youngest, the fear of imprisonment had oftentimes little or no influence; true it was that the prospect of the first imprisonment was fearful to their imaginations, and this feeling would greatly aid the preventive system; but the second had fewer terrors, and all in succession afterwards were less and less apprehended. Many indeed, of the lads sought the prison as a refuge for their wants, pressed as they were by constant and hopeless necessity. He would now for a moment draw the attention of the House to what he conceived to be the various causes of juvenile crime. Their name was legion; but the first great cause was the example and neglect of parents. Next came the various temptations to which children were exposed. A fertile source of crime was the reckless exposure in or on the outside of shops of articles of value, and particularly of food, which presented an almost irresistible temptation to hungry children. The number of penny theatres was another cause of crime, and a still more fertile source of evil were the casual wards. No less than 42 thieves out of 150, whom he once examined, confessed that the commencement of their career of theft was attributable to the corrupting influence to which they had been exposed in the casual wards of various unions. Those wards might be necessary; but, nevertheless, it could not be denied that they tempted numbers of children to leave the houses of their parents; and, when once they quitted their homes, they oftentimes never again returned to them. In some cases the commission of crime might be attributed to an inherent spirit of wantonness, mothers it was referable to want of edu- cation, in others, again, to want of employment, and in many instances to a combination of both causes. In a few cases, the commencement of a criminal career might be traced to oppression on the part of employers, and in some it was the result of absolute want. Now, he would assort that the preventive system was not only more economical, certain, and humane, but that it was the only one possible. The prison had failed; criminals were not reduced in number; or, if they were, it was by the operation of means that partook more of a preventive than a penal character. He would contrast the effects produced by the system pursued at parkhurst and Pentonville prison with those which proceeded from the scheme which the House of Commons sanctioned last year upon his recommendation. It was not his intention, he repeated, to deny that both the Parkhurst and Pentonville establishments had done good. But he wished to know in how many instances a permanently beneficial effect had been produced upon persons who, having quitted those places, had returned to their old haunts, and been driven to their old shifts to find employment. It was almost impossible, in the circumstances of the present day, for those convicted of crime, and hearing its brand on their forehead, to recover a position in society when driven to their old haunts and their old companions, exposed to their old temptations, and beset by their old necessities. The story which he was about to relate to the House, would furnish the strongest evidence of the truth of that proposition. In the course of last year he received an invitation from 150 of the most notorious thieves in London, asking him to meet them in some place in the Minories, and to give them his advice as to the best mode by which they might extricate themselves from their miserable way of life. He felt it his duty to accede to the request, and went to the place appointed, where he found, instead of 150, not fewer than 250 thieves assembled in a room. He entered into conversation with them, and addresses were made by several, the substance of which was, "We are tired of our mode of living; existence is a burden to us; we never know from sunrise to sunset whether we shall have a full meal, or any meal; we can get no employment—we have nothing but sorrow before us; give us your counsel as to how we shall extricate ourselves from our miserable position." He replied, it was a most diffi- cult question to solve—that at the present day, so great was the competition for employment, that there were always three candidates for one situation—and that it was unlikely that a person who was stained by crime would be preferred to three persons of untainted character. Thereupon a man rose and said— What you say, my Lord, is most true. All in this room have made attempt after attempt to get into some honest employment, but we have found that our tainted characters beset us every-where. My own case is a proof of this. I obtained a situation, and held it for five or six months. I was satisfied with my employer, and he was perfectly satisfied with me. One day there was a knock at the door; I opened it, and in walked a policeman. He asked for my employer, and, when he saw him, said, 'Do you know that you are employing a convicted felon My employer said he was not aware of it, but the policeman assured him it was the fact, and then my master turned round, and dismissed me from his service. Thus I was driven back to my old courses, and I declare to God that the impossibility of obtaining employment compels me and many others to lead the lives we do. Now, the reformatory system might succeed with discharged criminals if they were not pressed by actual necessity; but when they were placed in that position it was inefficacious, for in those circumstances human nature could not resist the temptation that overwhelmed them. He knew of one instance of a discharged offender triumphing over temptation; but he was a man of such determined character, that in order to persevere in the course of reformation which he had entered on, he endured the most wonderful privations—in fact, he lived the life of a martyr; but, by God's blessing, he ultimately overcame all difficulties, and was now in comfortable, nay, comparatively, affluent circumstances. The scheme which the House sanctioned last year, had produced as much permanent advantage at an expense of 1,500l. as could have been derived from the system in use at Parkhurst and Pentonville at an expenditure of 150,000l. or 200,000l. His scheme was to hold out a system of emigration as a reward of merit to a certain number of children attending the ragged schools. This scheme was doubly advantageous. It benefited not only those who emigrated, but those who remained, by inciting them to join the schools, and persevere in a course of good conduct, in order to qualify themselves for the reward held out. In this manner society, as well as the individual, was benefited. Can the same be said of any prison results? Has the reformation of any one prisoner been the signal for others without the walls to follow his example? A few extracts from letters written by some of the boys who had emigrated on the eve of their departure from England might prove interesting to the House. One boy wrote— I assure you, should it please God to spare my life and bless ray industry, it is my intention not only to remit to England something for the support of ragged schools, but endeavour to stir up others to do the same. Four of the best-behaved boys were pre sented with a suitable outfit and free passage from private sources, to the new colony of Moreton Bay, in Australia. The gratitude expressed by those lads, ere they embarked, was most pleasing, and before they left England, when it was clear that they would never see their benefactors again, they wrote the following letter to the Committee:— Gentlemen—We could not think of leaving England without expressing to you our most hearty thanks for all your care of us since we were admitted into the Refuge. We thank you for our protection, our education, and so worthy a master; and for our food and clothing. We hope so to behave as to comfort all your hearts. We may forget some we once knew; we never can forget the Committee. The following letter was addressed to him as chairman of the committee for the hoys by three boys who had emigrated:— Gravesend, April 8, 1849. We write to inform you we are arrived safe at Gravesend, and are quite well. We cannot express our gratitude to your Lordship for your kindness towards us, especially when we reflect on our past lives. When Mr. Nash took us under his care, he promised he would never leave us, and he never did, but he often told us to you we were indebted for ragged schools. May God bless your Lordship, may God bless Mr. Nash and every ragged school teacher; and we beg one favour of you, that you will open more schools, such as Mr. Nash's Dormitory, at Westminster, for there are many poor hoys that would be very glad to get in them; and we do promise, through God's grace, to conduct ourselves with the strictest propriety, and open a Sunday school in Australia. You said you would pray for us, so we will for you, every day of our lives, and tell the people in Australia what kind friends you are to poor boys. We are your Lordship's obedient servants. Now, this was a sketch of their biography. One of the boys who signed the letter was aged 16; he had long lived in a pigsty, and was taken from it to the Refuge; he had been seen seven times in prison, and when rescued from his miserable position was resolved to commit such a robbery as would entitle him to the benefit of transportation. Another of the boys, aged 17, had lived all his lifetime by begging and stealing; he was connected with a gang of thieves in Duck-lane, and slept under carts and on the steps of doors. The third boy, aged 15, lived by begging and stealing; he had lived for days together on the rotten apples in the Borough-market. Perhaps the House would here permit him to read some extracts from letters written by emigrants who had arrived at Australia. A boy addressed his mother thus:— Brisbane, Friday, December 23, 1848. Dear Mother—I write these few lines to you, hoping to find you in good health, as it leaves me at present. I have arrived with safety in the colony, after a long and wearisome voyage. I am in the depot now, in Brisbane. I am engaged as a shepherd, or to be generally useful, to go to a place called Wide Bay, 120 miles further up the bush. The blacks are not very wild in the towns, but they are out in the bush, where they are wild; they catch kangaroos and cat them. Parrots and cockatoos are very numerous here; the natives will catch them for you, and give them to you, if you give them a piece of bread or tobacco. I forgot to tell you how much wages I am to receive; it is 12l. per year, and my rations and washing. I am very happy at present, thank God. So no more at present from your affectionate son, W—S—. A similar letter had been received from a boy named Flynn, who went out at the same time, who had also got a place to "mind sheep," as he called it, at 12l. a year, besides all his food, lodging, washing, &c. Another letter was in these terms:— Ipswich, Moreton Bay, December 26, 1848. I have a good situation as a gentleman's servant. I have 20l. a year, board, lodging, plenty to eat and drink. I have had a merry Christmas of it. There is plenty of work for everybody. We were no sooner at the depot than we were all hired. One of the girls wrote— I found the country better than I expected it was. I like the place very much. All I wish is, that my sister Susan had come out with me. … My dear teacher—I am happy. I have got a good place, for my mistress is more like a mother to me. Though I am thousands of miles from you and all my friends, yet you are always in my mind, and the old wall of the poor-school. Contrast the moral and social condition of these children now with what it was. Those were samples of the effects produced by the emigration scheme. What had been the effect upon society at large? In order to ascertain that point, a series of questions had been proposed to the Committees of various ragged schools in London. The questions were as follows:— 1. Has the plan of emigration acceded to last year by the Government been the means of stimu- lating the increase of schools, and the attendance and order of the ragged class? The answer was unanimously "Yes." The next question was— To insure all the benefits that ragged schools are capable of conferring, is it not desirable that, wherever possible, the reformed vagrants should, either by employment or removal elsewhere, be kept from returning to their old haunts and companions? The answer was the same. Then the third question was— Do they, in general, desire one or the other?" The answer was the same. He then asked— With such inducements, a fair provision of school-room, and an adequate supply of proper teachers, would there be any difficulty in obtaining the attendance of throe times as many children as are now receiving instruction? The answer was uniformly that there would be no difficulty at all. He thereupon put this question— Would it therefore be practicable to grapple with the existing race, and so greatly reduce juvenile delinquency? The answer was uniformly "Yes." By that the House might see the effect produced on society at large by this system, and when they considered that it was produced by a sum of 1,500l. only, he thought he had proved his point. It had effected as much good as their system of prison discipline with an expenditure of 200,000l. In relation to this point, he was very much struck by the testimony of one man who had given himself up to a vicious course of life; he visited one of the schools, and asked to be shown over it; after seeing it he said—"I approve of this very highly, and I shall subscribe a guinea a year. The answer was—" How can you do so; we know what you are?" To which he re plied—" It is perfectly true: I know what I am; but if such institutions as this had existed when I was a boy, I never should have come to my present disgraceful condition. "That was the testimony of one of the greatest thieves in the metropolis. Now, emigration was preferable to employment at home: first, because it abated the terrible competition of the present day; next, because it removed the young people far from their former haunts and temptations, and in another view, because they were thereby relieved from the infliction of excessive labour. They might depend upon it that one great cause of juvenile delinquency, where the delinquents had been in employment, was the excessive toil to which they were subjected, and from which they fled to dishonesty as their only resource. Two cases of that excessive toil had come to his knowledge, fair specimens of the whole apprentice-system. From the ragged school they had apprenticed a boy to a shoemaker. He (Lord Ashley) saw him the other day; the boy made no complaint; but, on inquiry, he found that the boy began work every morning at half-past five, and continued working until half-past ten at night. He said to the boy—" This is pretty severe, but I conclude you have the Sunday to yourself?" The boy answered—"No, only Sunday afternoon, as I am kept at home to nurse the baby." That boy might resist the temptation, but 19–20ths of those who were so exposed would floe from their master's house and take themselves to an evil course of life. The other case was that of a little girl, who was also apprenticed. He found that she was engaged from four o 'clock in the morning until ten or eleven at night, and so far from having Sunday to herself, she rose on that day at half-past five, and was engaged until half-past four in washing. He wished now to consider the arguments for and against this proposition. One argument that he had heard against this scheme was, that if they did this for the children of the metropolis, they would be called on to do the same for the children of the other great towns in the country. That was perfectly true, but they might depend upon it that if they were to expend upon such a project 100,000l. a year, they would save ten times that amount in criminal prosecutions and penal expenditure. The next point was, that it would tempt the parents to neglect their children, and to abandon their duty to be performed by the State. He was of a different opinion. In the first place, a very large proportion of those children had no parents at all. He desired the House to observe that fact. In the second place, not a small proportion of them were the children of convicts; and, in the third place, the parents of many of the children were so poor that it was next to impossible they could make any provision at all for them. He would read an extract from the last report published a short time ago by the London City Mission:— The poverty of those who avail themselves of the benefits of this institution (Glasshouse-yard) is such, that the average number of articles brought by each washer is less than seven, even when the family apparel is included; and the matron has frequently to lend them dresses to wear while they wash those they take from their backs. Their poverty is indeed such, that Mr. Bowie, a surgeon in the east of London, says, 'I have seen women toiling unremittingly to wash their own and their children's clothing, who had been compelled to sell their hair to purchase food.' Now, would they dispose of those children by sending them to the workhouse? Let them consider the result of such an arrangement. The number of children of that class roaming about London exceeded 30,000. The number of children in the unions in England and Wales already amounted to 56,000; and if they added this 30,000 to that number, they would fail in the object they had in view, and throw an intolerable burden on the ratepayers. But suppose they did that; was a workhouse system of education such as would give them more confidence in the success of their undertaking? He was not going to speak disparagingly of the unions, many of them were most excellent, and he was sure that so long as the administration of the poor-law was under the care of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Commission, everything would be done to render the management of all unions as excellent as it could be. But the result of the education at the workhouse, when the children quitted the unions, was most calamitous. Not one in fifty, he believed, occupied that situation in life which they would wish it to occupy, morally or socially. As a proof of that, he would read the following report of the guardians of Marylebone, which appeared in the Times of the 11th of July instant:— Hitherto the system of education," says the report, "has been quite unsuccessful, which may be thus demonstrated:—From July, 1840, to July, 1849, 326 female inmates, between the ages of 13 and 20, have been provided with 896 situations from the workhouse, being an average of nearly three situations to each. There were 46 who left the school at the age of 13; 103 at 14; 72 at 15; 44 at 16; 18 at 17; 20 at 18; 12 at 19; 11 at 20; Total 326. Of these 89 are now leading abandoned lives; 20 have had illegitimate children that have become chargeable; 37, after having had several situations and outfits, have emigrated; 10 are married; 1 passed; 7 dead; 10 are receiving relief either in or out of the house; 45 are supposed to be in service; 99 nothing certain is known; 8 taken out by friends. Total 326. Of the boys, only one class could be traced, namely, those who had been apprenticed to the captains of vessels in the merchant service. From 1843 to the end of 1847, 137 youths, from 15 to 18 years of age, left the workhouse and engaged themselves in the sea service, as above described, and of these 83 returned and became subsequently chargeable. The fact was, that the workhouse system was, of all, the most ill adapted for train- ing children of that class for the service to which they were to be devoted, and therefore he should hope they would not think of consigning them to the workhouse, with a view to advance their morals, or better their condition. They looked, perhaps, for a remedy in the general amelioration of society: they were right; but they must wait a long time; and meanwhile they had a positive evil of great magnitude to grapple with, and the question was, how they should encounter it? Would they leave those 30,000 children as they were? If they did, they could not be surprised if they grew up in habits of fraud and violence, and became the subjects of the Judges and transportation. Let him describe the hope-loss condition of those children. He had examined several of them. He asked them, did they ever seek for employment? Their answer was, "Repeatedly." But let it be remembered, that they were generally in an utterly filthy condition, covered with vermin, with hardly any clothes to their bodies, wholly unable to read or write, not having, in fact, the least elements of knowledge; and the consequence was, that their application for employment was met with such answers as these: one would say—" How can you ask for employment in this filthy state? go and get new clothes." That was, in fact, a rejection, for the wretched children had no means of getting clothes, and only got their food by picking up scraps, begging, and stealing. Another would ask, "Can you read or write?" The answer was, "No;" and the reply followed, "How can you come here without knowing how to read or write?" But how could the children learn, when they had no school to go to—when they had no opportunity of acquiring the first principles of knowledge, sacred or profane? How, then, obtain a subsistence? The necessary, the inevitable consequence was, that the children were driven to crime and hopeless ruin. He wished the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary would tell him how he, as responsible for the peace of the country, would address himself to this evil? How would be, in his high office, attack the mischief? Now, what was their (the ragged school) system? They received the children in the evening, in their rags, and at their own hours. They addressed themselves to their habits, feelings, and propensities, and bent themselves for a while to their irregular habits, until they could bend the children to their better principles; he asserted that, in no one instance, had the parents been induced, by such expectations, to abandon their children. Was the inducement strong enough? Did it exonerate them from the charge? When they took the vagrants into the ragged school, and held out the hope of emigration, it was coupled with these conditions—conditions required of every candidate for emigration from the Government grants, or from any fund under the control of the Chairman of the Ragged School Union:— Sound health; regular attendance for at least six months in a ragged school; the ability to write a sentence from dictation; to work the four single rules of arithmetic; to read fluently; to repeat the Lord's prayer, and the Ten Commandments; showing a comprehension of their meaning, and answer a few simple questions on the life of our Saviour. To these must be added a certificate of regular attendance in some industrial class for at least four months, or a competent knowledge of some handicraft, or practical occupation, which would serve as an equivalent for such industrial training. Now, along with all this, the child must be maintained, and maintained, too, during the process, by its parents or guardians; they must bear their share in effecting the reformation, in preserving the good conduct, in supplying the necessities of the young candidates; and, so far from being tempted to the crime of desertion, they had been oftentimes themselves reformed by the process. And now, Sir, revile the system, and criticise it as they may, these ragged schools have been, and arc, the solo means whereby religious and secular knowledge is imparted to the thousands of a race sunk, whole fathoms deep, in destitution and suffering. This is decidedly the opinion of that intelligent gentleman, Mr. Tufnell, the Government inspector of schools, who was engaged to the young pupils or candidates for emigration. You vote 100,000l, a year for the purposes of education; you might, so far as these miserables are concerned, vote one hundred pence; they cannot receive any portion of your bounty—they cannot be accommodated to the system of your National and Borough-road schools. What other means exist? We have now 82 schools, full 8,000 children, 124 paid, and 929 voluntary teachers, of whose services I cannot speak with adequate gratitude and respect. In weariness and painfulness, and with every form of self-denial, they surrender themselves, body and soul, to this noble cause, hoping to excite, in others, a kindred sympathy. But they are not successful; the sympathy with the cause is lamentably small, and especially from those who should be the very first in every work of charity and religion. There are, thank God, some glorious exceptions; we owe much to a few active laity, some pious clergy, and a munificent lady, who has, alone, sustained nearly one half of our expenditure. But it is manifest that we must not confide in private benevolence; it has the power, but not the will, to contend with the evil. It is then to the House of Commons that we direct our attention, in the hope that the Legislature will take up the duty that individuals seem to reject. I can hardly appeal to your feelings, because you appear to me to lie under an obligation to consider the case of those desperate sufferers. "Their enemies drive them into the sea, and the sea throws them back upon their enemies;" and yet they are immortal spirits, as precious, body and soul, in the sight of God, as the very best among us in this august assembly. I commit, therefore, the issue to the representatives of the kingdom, believing that they will not gainsay, by their actions, what so many of them profess with their lips, when they pray that "it may please God to defend, and provide for the fatherless children, and all that are desolate and oppressed."

Motion made, and Question proposed— That it is expedient that means be annually provided for the voluntary emigration to some of Her Majesty's colonies of a certain number of young persons of both sexes, who have been educated in the schools ordinarily called Ragged Schools, in and about the Metropolis.

SIR G. GREY

had no wish to undervalue the importance of these ragged schools, which he had on a former occasion declared to be of great advantage to the interests of society, and which provided the moans of educating a class of the population who had peculiar claims to their attention. Great credit was due to Mr. Sheriff Watson, of Aberdeen, and other individuals who had sot the example which had been followed by the noble Lord. He would not enter into that part of the noble Lord's speech referring to prison discipline, with which the noble Lord could not be so well acquainted as with the ragged schools, or he would not have compared the benefits resulting from the emigration of children belonging to the ragged schools with the results of the prison discipline at Parkhurst and Pentonville—a comparison which had no foundation. The noble Lord said, that the boys from these prisons had relapsed into crime when they were thrown loose upon society. But it was not the fact that these lads were thrown loose upon society. They were all prisoners under sentence of transportation, and they were all sent abroad and enabled to earn an honest living. The youths sent from the ragged schools had, no doubt, expressed themselves in gratifying terms respecting their position in the colonies; but when the noble Lord spoke of the permanent results of Parkhurst and Pentonville, and of the emigration from the ragged schools, he begged to remind the noble Lord that these permanent results had yet to be tested. At the same time, he believed that these lads would be permanently benefited in the greater number of cases, as was however also the case with the lads sent from Parkhurst and Pentonville. He was sorry the noble Lord had held out to the House that the emigration recommended by him would establish any such system as to make it unnecessary to maintain our prisons. He could not recommend the House to adopt the view of his noble Friend, that by a large system of emigration, such as he recommended, any sudden change in society could be produced, or that the House could, by adopting it, anticipate that gradual progress of amelioration which, by other means, was going on in this country. He desired to see ragged schools extended as widely as possible; but when his noble Friend said that "in 1848 there has been an increase of juvenile delinquency; see what prison discipline has done," he (Sir G. Grey) might say, "In 1848 there has been an increase of juvenile delinquency; see what ragged schools have done." It might be advantageous to hold out the prospect of emigration to some of these children; but his noble Friend's Motion went to the removal en masse of a large class of persons that, he said, constituted the nursery of crime. His noble Friend said that the persons for whom emigration was to be provided were not to be considered as having committed crime. But all the instances he had given were those of lads who got their living by crime; and the House should be careful of the danger of establishing a premium upon crime by asking Parliament to pledge itself to make some annual provision for so great a boon to this as distinguished from other classes of society. Last year. Parliament placed a small sum at the disposal of his noble Friend, acting in conjunction with the Emigration Commission; and a letter was addressed by the Under Secre- tary for the Colonies to his noble Friend (Lord Ashley), which he (Sir G. Grey) would read to the House:— There are evident reasons why the privilege of a tree passage could not with safety be held out to a greater extent than as a prize to a small number of the most deserving and regular of the children who come to the ragged schools. For the benefit is one which in reality would be most acceptable to vast multitudes of honest parents and children for whom they can find no certain or adequate provision in this country; and to look to emigration on a large scale as a means of entirely removing the class of children who are neglected, would be to hold out a direct stimulus to parents to cast off their children in order to secure for them this great boon. It is only whilst the indulgence is confined in its character to that of a prize conferred upon comparatively few children, that this objection can be escaped. Considerations of a similar nature appear to Her Majesty's Government to show that the measure is not one which could with propriety be made the subject of an annual application to Parliament for a grant out of the public funds. The ragged schools, as your Lordship is aware, have hitherto been entirely supported by the private subscriptions of benevolent individuals; and while the advantage of a gratuitous education is not extended to the children of the working classes generally, it is absolutely necessary that the single exception of a public grant should not be made in favour of those parents who throw aside their children, but that the schools provided for them should preserve their present character of charitable institutions maintained exclusively by voluntary contributions. The same reasons are applicable against asking for a grant of public money from year to year for the benefit of this particular class of children, as distinguished from those who are better taken care of by their parents. The opinion of Her Majesty's Government, therefore, is, that for the future the finding of means to remove to the colonies the most meritorious of the children attending the ragged schools must depend on the same voluntary sources as the other provision for those institutions. But, understanding from your Lordship that probably an inconvenient delay would attend any attempt immediately to raise funds for the purpose by subscription, and that the object could be more easily accomplished after some examples of a successful emigration of the children, the Government is unwilling not to offer some aid towards commencing the experiment. The sum voted by Parliament last year was 1,500l.; but, looking to the arguments by which his noble Friend had advocated the removal of what he had described as a dangerous element to society, he found that there were 30,000 children in the metropolis alone, the cost of whose emigration, at 10l. a head, would be 300,000l. Then there were 50,000 children in the workhouses, and all that his noble Friend had said of the others applied to them also. He could not advise Parliament to enter upon a plan of emigration which should apply to these classes alone. Their remo- val to the colonies could only be a part of a large and general scheme of emigration, in which other classes of the community should benefit. The children of the metropolis must not only participate in it, but the children of other large towns. He had received communications from Glasgow, complaining that the children there were not admitted to participate in the grant made to the London ragged schools. They would be bound, therefore, to apply the principle equally to all the large towns of England, Scotland, and Ireland, and also to the rural districts. The results of the grant made last year had equalled the expectation of his noble Friend, and now the rest must be loft to the charitable assistance of individual benevolence. The noble Lord denied that the application of the grant would lead parents to neglect their children. But if it should appear that these 30,000 children in London, and those in the large towns, had been supplied with the means of emigration because they were destitute and neglected, he could not conceive any more direct premium upon parents neglecting their children in order that they might gain the benefits of this Parliamentary grant. The value of these ragged schools, and of the emigration of the better conducted children, was becoming so well known, that he was persuaded there would be no difficulty in obtaining from private benevolence the funds necessary for their support. But if Parliament interfered, persons would be deterred from coming forward with their contributions. The noble Lord said that these ragged schools could not obtain any portion of the funds voted by this House for the purposes of education. He (Sir G Grey) was present at a meeting of the committee of Council for settling the conditions on which assistance might be given to the ragged schools; and if the latter could be brought under the rules that parliament had laid down, there would be no indisposition on the part of the Committee of Education to give these schools their fair share of the Parliamentary grant. His noble Friend had asked him how he proposed to clothe and maintion these neglected children, if he opposed the Motion. Now, he was not prepared to answer that question. It was not the duty of Parliament to provide for the maintenance and support of any portion of the population; and it was not by providing a fund for the emigration of a certain class that they would enable people to bring up their children honestly and de- cently. His noble Friend must carry his proposition much further, or he would do great injustice to the parents of those children who, although well brought up, were unable to obtain employment in this country, and who would be too thankful to have them sent abroad at the public expense. He had received a representation from the foreman of the grand jury at York with reference to persons imprisoned for sedition and crimes connected with the state of the country, stating that those prisoners were convinced of the errors and follies of which they had been guilty, and that they dreaded being thrown back upon the society in which they had mixed. The grand jury, therefore, asked him (Sir G. Grey) to supply the funds for the emigration of those persons. Now, no doubt, in some of these individual cases emigration would be beneficial; but he had to ask himself whether it was right that crime should be the stepping-stone by which these persons should attain a boon which many honest and industrious persons who had never committed crime would gladly possess. He had, therefore, replied, that he had no funds at his disposal which would procure the means of emigration for these parties. The House must look at the interests of society as a whole, and he therefore called upon them to oppose the Motion of his noble Friend.

MR. PAGE WOOD

was glad the experiment of last year had been made, and yet he did not see his way to any extension of the grant, or to its being voted in perpetuity. He wished the case of orphans in our workhouses could be considered in relation to the same subject. It would be very desirable if any attempt could be made to send them to the colonies. It was obvious what all such propositions as the one before the House would lead to. There would be claims made from the National Schools, from the British and Foreign Schools, and from all schools connected with the Church and with Dissent. Nothing could be more dangerous than for the Government to interfere in such a manner that they should seem not to prop up the honest and industrious, but those of an opposite character. A friend of his, a magistrate in Essex, had told him that a widow in his neighbourhood who was bringing up her son honestly, said, that she was, to her sorrow, frequently tempted to let her poor boy take something, in order that he might be sent to Chelmsford gaol, where tailoring was taught. This showed that there were difficulties connected with the question, and should warn them against being led away too far by their benevolent feelings. He had not objected last year to give a small sum for the aid of these schools. A small gift such as that, operated like the educational grants of the Government in encouraging the voluntary exertions of others; and he should not have complained if a similar amount had been asked for on the present occasion, though he thought it by no means desirable that it should be converted into a constant grant. If any constant grant were made, it should not proceed from the public purse, but from the rates, and under the immediate control of those who contributed to the grant. He thought some little burden thrown on the ratepayers might act as a stimulus in making them look after the wretched condition of the poor children in their districts. With respect to the ragged schools, the noble Lord said that they had not met with that general support which they deserved from those who were able to assist them; but the reason was, because according to the noble Lord's description, the same strict discipline was not maintained in the ragged schools as in the National and British and Foreign Schools. [Lord ASHLEY: No, no!] Why, on a former occasion the noble Lord said, that great temper and management were required in the conduct of these ragged schools, and he praised a schoolmaster, who was tripped up by a scholar and had a severe fall, for affecting to believe that he was tripped up by accident. The great advantage of the ragged schools was, that they had induced persons to look after the necessities of that hopeless and pariah class of children who now attended these schools; and he could not speak in terms of too high praise of the noble Lord and all who had assisted him in inducing them to come to the schools; but when once brought there they ought to be treated like all other children, with gentle kindness, but at the same time they should be subject to wholesome discipline. He should not have said so much if it had not been for his strong desire that the cause which they had at heart—the providing a sound religious education—might not be damaged by a wrong step. Voluntary exertions derived a stimulus from a slight State favour; but the moment the proper limit was over-reached those exertions became paralysed.

LORD ASHLEY

shortly replied. He denied that he had spoken disparagingly either of the discipline, or its effects, of the Parkhurst or Pentonville establishments. On the contrary, he had expressly stated that these institutions had produced great reformatory effects; but they had produced these effects only in those cases in which work was provided for their discharged inmates in this country or in the colonies—not in the cases where the convict at the close of his period of imprisonment was thrown upon the world again to re-fight the great battle of life. He had to complain of the statement made by the hon. Member for the city of Oxford, who had just sat down, which was in fact quite a perversion of what he (Lord Ashley) had wished to convey. He had never praised the ragged schools because no discipline was maintained in them. What he had said was, that at the outset the habits of the children were so wild and lawless, that no discipline could be preserved, for, say the first fortnight or three weeks. But he had added, that the general result was, that the children were soon tamed down, and brought under regular habits of discipline; and he could answer for it that, in a vast majority of cases, the scholars of ragged schools were as orderly, as attentive, and as much attached to their masters as were the pupils of 19–20ths of the British and Foreign or the Borough-road schools. As he saw that there was a strong feeling in the House against the proposition which he had submitted to them, he felt that it would be indecorous in him to press it to a division; and he would, therefore, without further trespassing on the time of the House, at once withdraw his Motion.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.