SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES—BRITISH MUSEUM. (Hansard, 13 July 1849)

§ SIR R. PEEL
rose to move the estimates for the British Museum. He said he should best consult the convenience of the House by at once placing in the hands of the Chairman the vote necessary for this establishment. Every matter connected with the British Museum had boon referred to a commission, which had made extensive inquiries, and whose labours were now drawing to a close. Any discussion would therefore take place with much greater advantage when their report was laid on the table, and the opinions of the very eminent persons who were upon that commission were before the House. For these reasons he was of opinion that any discussion with regard to the British Museum had better be postponed until next year.
The vote of 42,915l. to defray the charges of the British Museum was then read by the Chairman.

§ MR. HUME
thought it perfectly right to postpone any discussion, as the commission were still busy about their report. He was gratified to find that the number of visitors seemed to increase; and when greater facilities were afforded for the use of the reading-room by the public, the institution would effect a much greater amount of good. He entirely concurred in the vote, and he only wished to see the liberal sums now given by Parliament towards the Museum properly appropriated. He wished to make a remark respecting the National Gallery, and to express his anxiety that the recommendation of the Committee of last year should be carried out, with respect to providing accommodation for the munificent collection of Mr. Vernon. He thought that, as the Royal Academy were only accommodated in their present apartments in the National Gallery until the rooms should be wanted for the public, it was of considerable importance that space should be obtained for Mr. Vernon's collection in the rooms now occupied by the Royal Academy. It was notorious, and from accounts that he received from 343 all parts of the country he was convinced, that if the space at the disposal of the trustees for the reception of pictures were increased, donations of valuable pictures and collections would soon be made, which would even more than fill the present building. It was, therefore, highly desirable that Mr. Vernon's collection should be placed in the situation to which it was entitled by its excellence. He did not think that the present situation of those pictures was open to all the complaint that had been made; but there were people who thought that a better sense of the value of Mr. Vernon's collection ought to have been shown by making bettor accommodation for its reception. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, as a trustee of the National Gallery, must be aware that the trustees were frequently compelled to decline the acceptance of valuable pictures, in consequence of the limited space at their disposal in the present building. The noble Lord at the head of the Government appeared to be of opinion that the Royal Academy had a right to their present rooms in the National Gallery; but he would find, upon inquiry, that the understanding was, that they were only to be admitted to the use of those apartments until the public accommodation required this further space. Three years ago, he wanted to know the means of the Royal Academy, but he lost his Motion by four or five votes only. He was now told that there was 100,000l. belonging to the Royal Academy; that would enable them to build an edifice suited to their purpose. [An. Hon. MEMBER: It is not their own.] But it was received from the charges made for admission to their annual exhibition, and that money might be devoted to building an edifice of their own. He protested against the House being called upon to vote money for finding accommodation for the Royal Academy, when that body had the means of obtaining a building for themselves. The Government ought to have paid more attention to the report of the Committee of last Session, which recommended that the Royal Academy should be removed from the National Gallery, and that additional provision should be made for the reception of pictures belonging to the public. He would suggest that the Royal Academy might go back to Somerset-house, on the west side of which they might find a very proper situation. He had no objection whatever to make to the present vote. 344 of which, on the contrary, he highly approved.

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
said, the subjects to which the hon. Member for Montrose, had adverted connected with the Royal Academy, and the providing better accommodation for the pictures of the late Mr. Vernon, had not been lost sight of by the Government. He had himself proposed the appointment of the Committee last year, and, although he was not able to make any proposal for the present Session, he hoped next Session to be able to state an arrangement that might be satisfactory.

§ MR. W. J. FOX
believed that, taking into account the increase of population, and the additional facilities of communication with the metropolis, the ratio of visitors to the British Museum had not increased. But, looking to the higher purposes of literature and art connected with the institution, the attendance at the reading-room, the print-room, and the sculpture-room, had been regularly decreasing for several years, until the decrease had become very considerable. He would not pretend to say from what cause this arose, but he thought the question should have been mooted, had the House not received an intimation that the commission had concluded its labours, and that their report would shortly be printed. He had heard several complaints that the commission had not been so accessible as it ought to have been, and that there were literary men deeply interested who would have been able to offer valuable suggestions respecting the institution, but who had had no opportunity of stating their views to the commission. The British Museum was a most useful institution, but he believed its utility was capable of very large extension.

§ MR. EWART
said, the Committee now sitting on the subject of public libraries had agreed on two points. First, that the 52,000 duplicate volumes in the British Museum ought to go to form lending libraries; and, secondly, that the reading-rooms should be open in the evening for the admission of many studious persons who were at present excluded. He confirmed the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose in the fact that when the Royal Academy removed from Somerset-house to Trafalgar-square, the Chancellor of the Exchequer distinctly stated, in answer to a question, that they were to occupy the building only until it was required by the public.

§ SIR R. PEEL
said, he was sorry to hear it stated by the hon. Member for Oldham, that the number of persons visiting the British Museum had declined, and that there was not a disposition on the part of the public to avail themselves of the advantages which the collections at the Museum afforded. He confessed that he had reached a different conclusion. He considered the hon. Member to be quite under a mistake when he supposed that there was not a growing disposition on the part of the public to avail themselves of all advantages of that class; and as to the aggregate number of visitors, there could be no doubt that they had of late very much increased. The number, for example, who went to inspect the works of art and relics of antiquity at the Museum had very much increased during the last five or six years. Thus, in the year 1843 the numbers wore 517,000, while in 1848 the numbers were 867,000, showing, as the House would see, a very manifest increase. Again, with respect to the print-room, the mumbers in 1846 were 4,390, while in 1847 they amounted to 4,572, and in 1848 there was a still greater increase, which raised the number to 5,819. In the face of these facts it still was said that the numbers had recently declined; and, assuming that they had, he might observe, that it never could be very easy in such cases to say why a few less should have examined those works of sculpture or of painting in one year than in another. There certainly had been no impediments thrown in the way of visitors, at the same time that precautions to no inconsiderable extent were found necessary, for very serious losses had been sustained in the medal department, in a case in which there existed every rational ground for placing full confidence in the person at whose hands the Museum had sustained that injury. His great learning, his very pleasing manners, disarmed all suspicion; and, unfortunately, as many as 300 or 400 coins had been abstracted. Still reasonable access was not denied, though it became necessary to provide means of security against depredation; and he wished to impress this upon the mind of the hon. Member opposite, that if there were any falling off in the number of visitors, the change was to be imputed to accident, and not to any impediments created by the officers of that institution, for there could be no doubt that they showed every inclination 346 to minister to that growing disposition which everywhere showed itself in the people of this country to substitute rational enjoyments in the place of those which were of a more sensual and less improving nature—a disposition which had clearly been shown by the returns that were now before the Committee.

§ MR. EWART
believed the decrease had been principally in the reading-rooms. Seven years ago the numbers there were 71,000, now only 65,000, which was very remarkable.

§ MR. HUME
was sorry the evidence had not been published which was taken before the Committee last year; if it had, as he had wished it to be, he was sure it would have afforded very satisfactory information to many persons.

§ The LORD ADVOCATE
believed the accommodation in the library and reading-rooms was better than that in any similar institution in any other country.
The grant was then assented to.
A vote was then taken for 112,800l. for the Disembodied Militia in Ireland.

§ MR. HUME
hoped, that by the rules recently laid down, they would have no more votes on account of any excess.

§ MR. FOX MAULE
could not promise that there never should be any excess. There were no rules laid down according to which the estimates could be so constructed as to avoid occasional excess. He feared that many hon. Members were too ready to think that there was every disposition on the part of a Government to get all the votes they could, and to expend as freely as possible; but on the subject of excesses, he wished to call attention to one or two facts. In the year 1841 there was an unappropriated balance carried to the public credit amounting to 119,000l. In the year 1842 there was a similar sum similarly applied of 391,000l. In 1843 the amount was 173,000l., and. in 1847, 855,000l.

§ MR. HUME
admitted that the public accounts were now more correctly kept than formerly, and he was bound also to admit that his right hon. Friend at the head of the Army Department had given a great deal of time and attention to the subject; and, on the whole, there was no great reason to complain.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUEE
stated, that 50,000l. had already been granted, and that this vote was only the balance of what was intended to be the vote for the whole year.

§ MR. HUME
feared that there was very little chance of their being able to get into the New Houses of Parliament in the course of the next year, and when they got in he feared they would not find very good accommodation.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that no doubt they might very much sooner get into the new House of Commons if they chose to break through contracts, and pay forfeits; but there was no escaping from those contracts without paying the forfeits; and he thought, upon the whole, that it would be the best way to finish the works according to the contracts. No contracts were now entered into without their being submitted to the Treasury.

§ MR. MUNTZ
thought that they had much better make a large grant at once, and get into the Now Houses without further delay.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
fully expected that the works would, in the course of next year, be sufficiently advanced to enable them to get into the New Houses.

§ MR. HUME
said, that the proposed ventilation was, he feared, bad, and that many faults were to be found with the architecture. The original estimate was 770,000l., and that, at all events, ought to have been a correct estimate, for nine months had been spent in its preparation. Looking, then, at the immense outlay that had been incurred—vast beyond anything that had ever been anticipated—looking at that, he would say that they were bound as regarded Mr. Barry, and not Mr. Barry alone, but any individual so placed—they were hound to take care that he did not carry them too far, for if they wore to pay him commission for the great excess that had been committed, they would have to disburse a very large sum of money—it would form a very great difference in the sum that Mr. Barry would have to receive.

§ MR. SPOONER
thought it was advisable to see if they could not increase this vote and finish the work at once. They had already voted no less than 192,766l. for temporary arrangements during the 348 building of the New Houses of Parliament; and he had not the slightest hesitation in saying that if any Gentleman would enter into a close inquiry upon the subject, he would find that the postponement of these payments for the New Houses Vas made at an expense of from 12 to 15 per cent per annum. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said the other night that trade was reviving, and that prosperity was staring them in the face; and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth referred them to the quantity of gold in the Bank, and the cheapness of money. Now, if they trusted to that—if they trusted that their prosperity was built upon a sure foundation, that their difficulties were over, and that trade was reviving—why not go into the market at once and borrow enough money to finish the works, and put a stop to these outlays for temporary accommodation? No one could deny that they were carrying on this work in a most wasteful and expensive manner. They were doing it in a way too which inflicted great injustice upon the contractors, and put all the workmen to great and severe inconvenience. By-and-by another claim would come upon them, which, he confessed, he was at a loss to know how they would meet. The contractor would say, that he had entered into his contract, after making the same calculations as he should have made were he doing the work of a private individual; that he had, therefore, laid in a certain stock of materials, which came to 15,000l. or 20,000l.; that these materials should have been used two or three years ago; but that they still lay by him on account of his being stopped in carrying on the works in the best and most expeditious manner. True, they might answer him when he came to them, and said that he had all his money locked up, and had lost the interest thereon for so long a period: "Oh, yes; but you must carry out the conditions of your contract; "but he (Mr. Spooner) put it upon the broad ground of equity, whether, if the contractor showed that he had done nothing more than what a prudent man should do, any court of equity would refuse to allow him interest for his money. It seemed also that there were two conflicting powers in operation. They had the regular architect and the ventilating architect battling with each other. At all events they did not act cordially together. The contractor complained of the ventilator, and the ventilator of the 349 contractor. But the question was, who would have to pay for this? and he thought it now became the Government to step forward and say, "Gentlemen, one of you must give way. We cannot have two kings reigning fit the same time, and we will not permit the continuance of these disputes any longer." On looking at the estimate they would perceive that the sum spent for ventilation was one that required the serious consideration of the House. He knew that it was incompetent for any private Member of the House to move an increased grant; but he trusted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with his views of the returning prosperity of the country, would act upon those views, and increase the vote to a sum sufficient for the immediate completion of the works.

§ MR. HUME
thought that the present question fully deserved the serious attention of the House. The two objects that they had in view were economy and accommodation; and he feared it would be found that the temporary provision made for the use of both Houses would prove as expensive as the estimates for the new buildings, which he at the outset brought under the notice of the House.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he must object altogether to borrowing money for an annual expense. They had resisted loans for building docks, and they certainly ought to resist them for such a purpose as was now proposed. It was to be hoped that in the course of next year they would be able to get into the New Houses, and get rid of all the temporary charges. He should not go into the question respecting prosperity, which the hon. Member for North Warwickshire had raised; but, even assuming that his statements were well founded, he did not think that they afforded any justification for the course which that hon. Gentleman had recommended.

§ MR. EWART
complained of the Committee-rooms. It was extremely difficult to hear in them; they were badly ventilated, and there was no retiring room for the Committee to consult in. Whenever there was difficulty in the Committee, witnesses and strangers had to be turned out into the lobby, which they blocked up, and created confusion and inconvenience.

§ MR. T. GREENE
admitted that the Committee-rooms were defective in this respect, and also thought it was very difficult to hear in them. Flock paper had been put upon the walls with a view to 350 facilitate the hearing, and he hoped that by means of a screen it would be greatly improved.

§ MR. EWART
wished to know on what principle it was proposed to ventilate the House? From all he could learn it appeared to him that the House of Lords was to be ventilated upon the principle of a descending current of air; the House of Commons upon an ascending current, and the Committee-rooms not ventilated at all.

§ MR. T. GREENE
said, the ventilation of the House of Commons rested with Dr. Reid, that of the House of Lords with Mr. Barry, and that as to that of the Committee-rooms it had not been thought of yet. He hoped, however, all the arrangements respecting the ventilation would be completed before the commencement of the next Session of Parliament.

§ SIR H. WILLOUGHBY
said, that last Session of Parliament he had moved for a return of what sums had been voted, and what had been expended, on the Houses of Parliament. They had now got another step as to what would be the probable cost of the Houses, and it appeared that the amount would be 2,043,000l. It was doubtful whether they were at the end of the expenses. He wished to get an answer to the simple question, who were the parties really responsible for this expenditure? It seemed that the hon. Member for Lancaster had no power to regulate the expenditure. If there was any real responsibility in the matter, the Treasury were the parties who should have previously inquired into these matters, and taken some security for the completion of the works within a given amount. He was firmly persuaded that 2,043,000l. would not cover the whole cost. There was 497,000l. for fittings and furniture. What security had the Chancellor of the Exchequer that more than that sum would not be expended? The question he wished to put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, whether he could not appoint some particular department of the Government to have an effective control over the expenses.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
was quite ready to admit that the proceedings connected with the building of the New Houses had not been conducted in a very satisfactory manner. It was a matter with which it had been very difficult to deal in the first instance, because Committees of the two Houses, apart from the Government, had determined 351 upon certain plans which they wished to have carried out, and they had from time to time approved of schemes which increased the expenditure. The original estimate was rather more than 700,000l.; but that sum did not include the purchase of ground, or the expense of the foundations; it referred only to the carcass of the building, and no one could suppose that that was an amount for which such an edifice could be completed. Other expenses were incurred at the wish of the Woods and Forests; and a Committee which had sat in 1844, to investigate the expenditure upon objects not included in the original estimate, had reported their opinion that such expenditure was proper and necessary, and that it was not extravagant. He did not think that a sufficient degree of control had been exercised at that time; but a commission had since been appointed to exercise a perpetual check upon the expenditure, and to take care that no new expense was incurred until it had been approved by the Treasury. Certain plans had been approved by the joint Committee of the two Houses, which were to be carried out, and he imagined the commissions would take care that there was no deviation from them; but if any alterations were necessary, involving an additional expenditure, the sanction of the Treasury must be obtained.

§ MR. HUME
did not understand what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Did he mean to say that the original plan was to be carried out, with the exception of some alterations? Nothing was more distinctly ascertained than the estimate was at first. When Mr. Barry's plan was brought before the Committee, an examination took place. It was found that the estimate was very defective, and the Committee postponed the matter for several months, in order to allow a complete estimate to be made, and it was after the new plan was brought before the Committee that the amount of the estimates was fixed. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth proposed a resolution that the architect was not to be paid by a per centage, but to be paid by a sum of money. It was left for the Woods and Forests to decides whether it should be 20,000l. or 25,000l., and they decided on 25,000l. He could not imagine there could be any doubt as to the contract, and that there was to be no claim for any additional sum.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE- QUER
replied, that considerable expense had been incurred for the purchase of ground, for the alteration of the approaches, and for furniture. The commissioners, however, stated in their report that they would endeavour to exercise the strictest economy, and that they would postpone the completion of such portions of the building as were not immediately required. The estimate laid on the table was the architect's estimate, and had not been sanctioned in a formal way.

§ SIR H. WILLOUGHBY
considered that to be the great misfortune. He understood the fact to be that the commission whose duty it was to look over these matters was under the control of the Treasury, and that the Treasury were the really responsible parties. There was rather an ominous sentence in this estimate. It said, "exclusive of the cost of previous estimates proposed for warming and ventilating the House of Commons." Then there came this doubtful expression, "and all other incidental payments not under the cognisance or control of the architect." These words—"incidental payments"—left a loophole for everything.

§ MR. MUNTZ
wished to know whether the money they were then voting was to be applied to the completion of that portion of the building which was to be appropriated to the use of the Members of that House?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
stated, that the present vote would be almost entirely expended upon the new House of Commons.

§ MR. T. GREENE
said, the Committee were anxious that the whole of the funds placed at their disposal should be applied to the completion of the buildings most urgently required, and they were desirous that no further progress should be made with the towers at present; but Mr. Barry had stated in one of his reports, that if they adopted that course they would incur an expenditure of about 50,000l. for violation of contracts. He believed that only 12 or 15 feet of the towers remained to be built before the completion of the present contracts, and when they had expired the building of the towers would be entirely suspended, and the whole of the money voted would be applied to complete the House and Committee-rooms.

MR. DRUMMOND
observed, that if any set of Gentlemen who had seen a true drawing of all the details of the new palace imagined that it could be completed 353 for 700,000l, he thought they must have been very incompetent judges of building and architecture. If the 25,000l. which it was said Mr. Barry was to receive was to be given to that gentleman upon his estimate for the carcass of the building, well and good; but, as it had been said that unpleasant remarks might be made about an architect who demanded what he considered his just due, he (Mr. Drummond) would ask the House whether they thought no remarks would be made about employers who defrauded that architect of his just due? If an individual employed an architect, he dared not refuse to pay that architect the sum to which he was justly entitled; but this was not the first time that the House had defrauded those whom they had employed. They had defrauded Mr. Brunei in the same manner, for they had contracted to give him half the amount of saving the Government would effect by using his block-machinery, and they had never fulfilled their contract. Was there ever a grosser case of oppression than that committed with regard to the Baron de Bode? The fact was that the House had the power and the purse in their hands; they would not pay; and there were no means of making them pay. He would say, that if they meant to put off Mr. Barry with 25,000l., it was as gross a fraud as was ever committed by any body of men.

§ MR. HUME
begged to remind the hon. Gentleman that the architect had undertaken the work after the Committee had come to a resolution that he should not be paid by a per centage, but that he should receive a fixed sum.

§ MR. J. O'CONNELL
hoped that this vote would be postponed; or if the Ministry were disposed to part with 12,000l. just now to Ireland, it would be much better to send it towards relieving the distress that was prevailing there, than for the use of the colleges. Nothing could be more proper than the desire to advance education among all classes of people; but these colleges were to spread a system of education which was most objectionable, on religious grounds, to the Catholic population of Ireland. He had great hopes that if this vote were postponed for the present, between this and next Session an amicable 354 agreement might be come to between the two opposing parties; and therefore he hoped Her Majesty's Ministers would consent to that course. The head of the Roman Catholic Church had twice desired his subordinates in Ireland not to have anything to do with this system of education; and if the Government persisted in it, they would be thrusting it down the throats of the Catholics, which they would be certain to resist. The object only could be to increase the Government patronage in a poor country where that patronage was an unconstitutional attempt, and he objected to it on every ground.

§ MR. SPOONER
said, that upon looking at the Act of Parliament he found 21,000l. was to be advanced for carrying out the objects of these colleges, but not more than 7,000l. a year, and he wished to know if any of that sum had been advanced?

§ MR. THORNELY
wished to know when they would have a report of the progress that had been made in the erection of the colleges? He trusted that none of the professors would be appointed until the colleges were nearly ready.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, it was true that 100,000l. had been appropriated by Act of Parliament for the building of these colleges, and a sum of 21,000l. for their maintenance for throe years. The 100,000l. had been expended in the building and furnishing of the colleges, which would be ready for opening in October next. The annual expenditure of the 21,090l. would not, of course, commence until the colleges were opened. The presidents and vice-presidents of the colleges had already been appointed, but the professors would not be appointed until within a reasonable time of the opening of the establishments. It had, however, been represented to the Government that the whole sum of 100,000l. had been expended upon the building and furnishing of the colleges, and that the lectures could not be commenced without a certain amount of books and instruments; and the Government had proposed the present vote in order to supply that want. The 21,000l. was applicable only to the annual expenditure, and no portion of it bad been issued, with the exception of the salaries of the presidents and vice-presidents of each college, since the time of their appointment. The Government could not apply any portion of the grant of 7,000l. a year to the purpose of providing 355 books, as that sum was merely applicable to the annual expenses.

§ MR. LAW
asked whether this 12,000l was in excess of the 100,000l mentioned in the original Act?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
Yes, in excess of the sum originally specified.

§ MR. PLUMPTRE
asked if it were true that Government had received a protest signed by a large portion of the Roman Catholic hierarchy against these colleges; and if so, whether, seeing also that they were objected to by a large portion of the English people, he meant to persist in their establishment?

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
said, that there had been an opinion expressed by a majority of the Roman Catholic bishops, that in order to make these colleges what they considered safe places for the education of Roman Catholic youth, certain securities must be provided, and among the rest, that certain professors should not be appointed, except subject to the veto of the Roman Catholic bishops. That was a proposition to which the Government could not assent. At the same time he must add, that both the former and present Governments gave explanations that satisfied a great number of the bishops that education might go on in the colleges with perfect security to the religious opinions of the Roman Catholic youth. The plan of the colleges was a thing which did not immediately concern the present Government, having been sanctioned by an Act of Parliament previous to their accession to office. What might be the ultimate success of those colleges it was of course impossible for him to say; but he believed that they were now looked upon with favourable eyes by a large majority of the Roman Catholic clergy and laity. Sir R. Kane, a distinguished appointment of the last Government, had informed him that the number of pupils likely to be sent would be much greater than he had in the first instance anticipated. He (Sir R. Kane) had received a vast number of letters from persons anxious to send their sons to the colleges, and who eagerly inquired when they were likely to be opened.

§ MR. LAW
said, it appeared to him that this sum was in addition to the amount paid already; and he considered it somewhat irregular to propose, as an ordinary estimate, a large sum, which was beyond the express terms of the original contract. The moment it was discovered that the 356 100,000l would not be sufficient for the buildings and furniture, a Bill should have been introduced to obtain the required addition, for, in his view, the House was not at liberty, under the circumstances, to vote it without notice as an ordinary estimate.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, the Government had not felt themselves at liberty to apply any sum obtained under the Act to other purposes than those specified in the Act. They thought it best to come before Parliament and state the case as it stood, for, after all, the amount was only required to carry out bonâ fide the intentions of the House when the Act was passed. Parliament intended to establish the colleges: without apparatus and books they could not be opened. He, therefore, thought Parliament might be fairly called upon to carry out its intentions.

§ MR. PLUMPTRE
asked, who had decided that the sum now applied for would be sufficient for the purposes for which it was destined—the professors or the Government? Unless there was some security that it would be sufficient, Parliament might be called upon year after year for similar grants, and nobody would be able to tell when these applications would stop.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, Sir Robert Kane had communicated to the Government his opinion that this sum was necessary, but the vote was not to be an annual vote.

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
added, that he had been informed, that when the colleges were once open, the matriculation fees would be sufficient to supply whatever might be further required.

§ MR. HENLEY
wished to be informed what security there was against the House being called upon for an annual grant to continue the undertaking in case the colleges should not fill? The noble Lord said the Roman Catholic hierarchy had made certain demands with regard to certain professors and officers, which the late Government would not concede; but explanations had been given by the present Government which had satisfied a considerable portion of that body. It was desirable the House should be put in possession of these explanations, because Parliament had voted money upon the faith and understanding that the colleges were to be common to all parties, without advantages being given to any.

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
said, so far as he could recollect his words, he had not stated 357 that explanations had been given. All the information he had upon the subject was derived from sources which were public, and known to every Member of the House. What he had said with regard to objections was, that the presidents of each college would frame and propose regulations which he thought would satisfy the parents of Roman Catholics, and parents belonging to any other religious community who had doubts or fears as to the education provided in the colleges. There were no particular advantages or special privileges given to Roman Catholics. He did not know whether the regulations had been completed or sanctioned by the Lord Lieutenant, but the general nature of them was that those who wished it might live in the houses of their parents if they resided in the place; if they did not live there, the persons keeping lodgings for students would have licenses, that they were proper persons to keep such private establishments. These establishments would be entirely private, and no portion of the public money would be given to them. Parents of Roman Catholics would send their sons to a Roman Catholic establishment; parents belonging to the Establishment to one attached to the Establishment. Thus there would be every Security for religious and moral education without danger of proselytism; and it appeared to him there could be no objection to regulations of this kind.

§ MR. HUME
expressed his belief that the 100,000l. was intended to defray all the expenses of establishing the colleges, including books and apparatus.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
referred to the words of the Act. They were "for the necessary buildings, purchase of land, tenements, and buildings, with the appurtenances, and the furnishing of the same." The question then arose whether books and apparatus were part of "furnishing" or not.

§ MR. HUME
understood "furnishing" to mean everything suitable to establishing the colleges. He wished further to know, when the presidents and vice-presidents were appointed, at what salary, and from what fund, they were paid?

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
said, the Government had naturally inquired, when the proposal was made to them, in what way the Act had been understood. They were informed by the Board of Works, that the letters which they received directed them to expend the whole of the sum on the buildings, and that as to what was usually 358 called "furnishing," there was no sum applicable to the purpose. Such being the case, it was absolutely necessary that this vote should be proposed in order that the colleges might be commenced. With regard to the next question, he was not quite certain when the presidents and the vice-presidents were appointed; but he knew they had been occupied in making arrangements for the colleges which had required their attention for a considerable time.

§ MR. HEYWOOD
said, he understood that the colleges of Belfast and Cork gave the greatest possible promise of success. The only doubt he had was with reference to the college at Galway, if the Roman Catholic clergy should be found to persevere in their opposition to it.

§ MR. O'FLAHERTY
said, that the success of the colleges depended entirely upon the appointment of the professors. If those appointments were judiciously made, he had no doubt of the success of the colleges; but if they were jobbed, and persons appointed merely through Parliamentary or any other interest, they would certainly fail. He could answer one of the questions of the hon. Member for Montrose. The presidents and vice-presidents had been under salary since 1846, and had received two and a half years' salary. He had always thought it very absurd that they should have been under salary so long; but he thought it fair to say, that this was not the fault of the present but of the former Government, by whom the appointments were made. He trusted the Government would listen with attention to the objections which had been urged against these colleges by the Roman Catholic Archbishop of Tuam—if the Government would only see justice and fairness done to all sects, he was convinced that the colleges would be successful, and would be found to be a source of lasting improvement to Ireland.

§ MR. J. O'CONNELL
mentioned the names of several other Prelates of the Catholic Church who were opposed to the colleges as well as the Archbishop of Tuam.

§ DR. POWER
said, it was quite true, as had been stated by his hon. Friend the Member for Limerick, that very grave objections were entertained by some of the Roman Catholic bishops to the establishment of those colleges; but he thought that their objections were founded rather on the experience of the past than on any just grounds as regarded the present mea- 359 sure. They saw, that up to a very late period every attempt that had been made to educate the people had been founded upon a sectarian and narrow principle; but, seeing the satisfactory results of the national schools, he thought that the rational inference was, that the Government that had been ancillary to the establishment of these beneficial institutions would conduct the colleges on the same liberal and enlightened principles. The Pope had expressed dissatisfaction at these colleges; but he thought that the Pope's condemnation of them was founded rather on the fears of certain parties in Ireland than on any knowledge he had of the actual state of things. The state of feeling in this country had undergone a very great change with respect to Ireland, and there was now a wide-spread feeling to conduct every thing connected with Ireland on broad and liberal principles, and the old principles of bigotry and Protestant ascendancy were crushed for ever.

§ MR. HUME
thought it not right that the presidents and vice-presidents of these colleges should have been paid during three years for doing nothing.

§ MR. SPOONER
objected to the amount originally fixed upon for the establishment and carrying on of these colleges, being exceeded. It appeared, that apart from the sum voted for establishing these colleges, 7,000l a year had been granted since 1845 for carrying them on, which sums, as they had not been brought into operation, had not been expended. Why not take the money for the purpose now stated from the surplus resulting from that grant? He should take the sense of the Committee against the vote.

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
admitted, that a portion of the 7,000l. a year granted in 1845 remained over in consequence of the professors not having been appointed; and if that fund could be drawn upon for the purchase of the necessary philosophical apparatus and books, there would be no occasion for this vote. Government, however, considered that grant made for a special purpose, and that they had no power to devote it to any other.

§ MR. BANKES
said, that though the sum now asked for might appear inconsiderable, the principle involved was worthy of a discussion, because if, after an Act of Parliament had been passed limiting the expense of a certain establishment, the Government of the present day might claim 12,000l. additional, what should prevent 360 a future Government making a still greater demand? Those who agreed to the Act in 1845 might have done so because the particular expenditure under it was limited, and at that time money was abundant, and distress not rife. But now distress existed, and money was not abundant, and 12,000l. at present might perhaps be as important as 100,000l. in 1845, The rejection of the vote would teach those who brought in Money Bills to take care that what they demanded of the House was sufficient for the purpose; and whenever they applied for a further grant, they, whether in power or out of power, should be told that they had deceived the Parliament.

§ MR. HUME
thought the Government had acted fairly, if there existed a doubt that this expenditure was not comprehended within the Act. That had been stated to be the case; and, as the money was required for starting the colleges, he should support the vote.

§ MR. NEWDEGATE
inquired whether the income intended for these colleges was accumulating; and whether there was any considerable amount of it in the hands of the Government?

§ LORD J. RUSSELL
replied, that 21,000l. were granted in 1845 for the payment of the salaries of professors and other officers, and for defraying the expense of prizes and exhibitions. A considerable portion of that sum had not been issued, because the professors were not yet appointed; and that money would only be applied by the Government to the purposes mentioned in the Act.

List of the NOES.
Bankes, G.	Morgan, O.
Buller, Sir J. Y.	Morris, D.
Campbell, hon. W. F.	Muntz, G. F.
Cobbold, J. C.	Mundy, W.
Devereux, J. T.	Newdegate, C. N.
Disraeli, B.	O'Connell, J.
Duncan, G.	Pechell, Capt.
Floyer, J.	Portal, M.
Gwyn, H.	Salwey, Col.
Hastie, A.	Stuart, J.
Henley, J. W.	Walpole, S. H.
Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.	Williams, J.
Kershaw, J.
Law, hon. C. E.	TELLERS.
Meagher, T.	Spooner, K,.
Martin, J.	Plumptre, J. P.