JUVENILE OFFENDERS BILL. (Hansard, 10 July 1849)

§ MR. M. MILNES
rose, pursuant to notice, for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to the treatment and condition of juvenile offenders in this country. He observed, that as he had given his notice a considerable time ago, he should now content himself with making a few remarks upon the subject of juvenile offenders, although he might be compelled to proceed no further in the matter during the present Session of Parliament. He was the more induced to trouble the House with a few observations on the present occasion, inasmuch as he wished to impress on the Home Secretary, and on hon. Members generally, the great importance of the matter for which he desired to solicit their consideration. Amongst the various subjects which did and ought to occupy the time of the Legislature in this country, there was no one of the social questions more interesting to the philanthropist than the discipline and reformation of juvenile offenders. There was not one man in the country who gave the least attention to subjects of that class who would not be ready to admit that hero prevailed a great and crying abuse. It would be impossible for any one to visit the prisons of England without feeling that the juvenile offenders confined in them did not receive the attention which their cases deserved. Whether the question were placed on the highest or the lowest ground, there could not be a shadow of doubt respecting its importance in a moral and social point of view. When conviction took place, what was the condition of the young 102 criminal? It was one of the utmost danger to himself and of great injury to society. He wished the House particularly to bear in mind, that in legislating on such a subject they were not dealing with any difficult or complicated question. It was a single crime, and one committed by a single class of persons. The crime was, petty larceny; the criminals, the children of poor. Now, when an offender of that class was sent to prison, he generally found there better shelter and better food than he bad previously been accustomed to, as well as companions of his own age—companions more agreeable, though more dangerous, than those with whom be bad previously associated. When even the boy from Parkhurst was thrown upon the world, he was too frequently unfitted for independent action, and destitute of the ability to serve his country as an honest and independent citizen. It was not surprising that such should be the case, as all that was done at Parkhurst was chiefly calculated to give the boy a strong impression of punishment, instead' of improving his heart or awakening his conscience. He would press upon the Government the necessity of establishing some such asylum for the criminal youth of Great Britain as that of the Philanthrophie Institution, which, under the able guidance of Mr. Sidney Turner, had been made to equal the Mettray of France. He believed, that upon a rough calculation 70,000 or 80,000 persons came under the notice of the law in the metropolis and surrounding districts, and at least a seventh part of them were persons under thirteen years of ago. He contended, that the process pursued in this country with juvenile offenders was not a curative process; and, further, he thought it would be a great improvement if juvenile offenders were immediately after conviction subjected to corporeal punishment, which should be inflicted by the constable of the district with the least possible delay; that for the second offence they should be sentenced to two or three years' imprisonment, and sent to a reforming establishment; and that for the third offence they should be sent to a similar establishment for five or six years, where they Mould be subjected to constant and severe labour—not without moral superintendence, but still to constant and severe labour—to real, stringent, continuous labour, but still, as he said, not without a reformatory purpose and process. Every one acquainted with the state 103 of our population well knew that it was for want of education and fair superintendence that the children of the poor were what they were. As to the power of retaining those children in custody after the term of their sentences expired, that was a matter which the Secretary of State had now altogether in his own hands. He regretted to observe, that the Bill which had been introduced at the instance of Miss Murray—a lady whom he might place on a par with Mrs. Fry—had never been carried into practical operation; there was every reason to apprehend that the evils springing out of juvenile delinquency would, if neglected, reach to a very formidable extent; and he hoped that the Government would take these subjects into consideration in connexion with plans of colonisation, thus giving reformed criminals a chance of beginning life anew. Having said so much, he should now leave the whole matter in the hands of Her Majesty's Government, trusting that they would turn their attention to it during the ensuing vacation; and when Parliament met again he hoped that Ministers would be prepared to make a step in the right direction. If his right hon. Friend neglected to do so, he at all events would not abandon the matter. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the law relating to juvenile offenders.

§ SIR G. GREY
said, that he should rather be disposed to accede at once to the Motion, if he believed that his hon. Friend had really a Bill in his possession. Everything in these matters depended, not on the expression of benevolent sentiments, in which he was quite sure that the House went along with his hon. Friend, but on the legal provisions which were necessary, and, at the same time, practicable, to give effect to those benevolent intentions. He agreed with his hon. Friend in much that that he had stated. He believed that much might be done with juvenile offenders, and he considered it to be the duty of the Government to keep in view the reformation of this class of offenders in a much greater degree than they were at liberty to do with criminals of a more advanced age. The two elements of punishment which ought to be kept constantly in view were the element which, by its deterring effect, repressed the commission of crime, and that which led to the reformation of those who were under punishment. It required a very nice hand to adjust the balance between those two principles; but 104 he admitted that it was easier to apply the latter in the case of juvenile offenders. His hon. Friend seemed to think that Parkhurst was a penal school, rather than a prison, and he was very glad to say that the chaplain and the schoolmaster were entitled to every commendation that might be bestowed upon them. At the same time it was necessary to bear in mind the penal character of Parkhurst, and that it was not a school, but a prison, to which boys under sixteen, who had committed offences which subjected them to transportation, were sent, frequently at the recommendation of the Judge who tried them, or the chairman of quarter-sessions. If their conduct, while at Parkhurst, was good, they might be sent to some colony, where they might begin life anew. If his hon. Friend had not seen Parkhurst, he should advise him to go there, for he understood that the combination of the two elements of penal discipline there had fully answered the end which Parliament had in view. His hon. Friend had also referred to the Philanthropic Institution, in the eulogium bestowed upon which he entirely concurred. Too much could not be said in praise of Mr. Turner, the excellent secretary of that institution. He believed that the effects produced by the training received there were of a most salutary kind. But really the chief evil to which his hon. Friend had adverted, he had not stated expressly in terms—and that was the evil of short imprisonments, by which offenders of tender years were frequently brought into contact with criminals of a more advanced age and more hardened character, and came out of prison tutored in crime, and much worse than they went in, the shortness of the imprisonment not allowing of any effectual means of reformation. His hon. Friend had referred to the Act brought in by the Member for Droitwich, giving magistrates the power of summarily convicting children under fourteen years of age; and he was happy to state that the Act had worked well; that the recommittals under it in the metropolitan districts had been very few; and that the punishment of whipping had fully answered the object which was intended. He was willing to assure his hon. Friend that his attention would be directed to this subject, and that if any fresh powers could be obtained which would enable the Government to deal with it more satisfactorily, he should not fail to ask for them. He must protest, however, against his hon. Friend's assumption 105 that the path of legislation on this subject was clear and easy. In the memorial presented by the Philanthropic Society, they admitted that the subject was really a very difficult one. One of their most valuable suggestions was that the parents of children should be made liable for their support while they were inmates of these reformatory institutions, or houses of detention. This was a "very valuable principle; but, at the same time, there were many difficulties in the way of its application, as parishes might be led into a good deal of litigation. He owned, however, that it was desirable that parents who neglected their children should be made responsible in a pecuniary sense for offences which, in a great measure, had been occasioned by their neglect. His hon. Friend had adverted to the Act of 1840, which, he believed, had remained a perfectly dead letter on the Statute-book, because that Act did not give any power to the Government, but to the Court of Chancery, and he was afraid that the machinery of that court was not suited to the purpose. He believed no case had occurred in which that Act had been made available. He could assure his hon. Friend that he should be most willing to receive any suggestions on this subject; keeping in view the principle that crime required punishment, and that those who had been guilty of offences against the law ought not to be better treated than those who had not.

§ MR. BANKES
said, one of the first things to be considered in discussing this matter, was the separation of juvenile offenders, after their committal, from more hardened offenders. He had received a communication with respect to that subject from Dorchester, which he wished to lay before the House. It appeared that no less than fifteen prisoners, sentenced to transportation since the last July assizes, were still detained in the gaol of that place, and although a correspondence had been entered into with the Homo Secretary's Office, nothing of a satisfactory answer had been received. The county had proposed to add eighty new cells to the gaol, for which they could afford an expense of about 3,000l; but this had been objected to, because the official prison inspector had recommended certain warming and ventilating propositions, which could not be carried out under a cost of 10,000l., to which the magistrates of the county had declined acceding. Meantime the prison accommodation which they thought they could afford 106 was denied them, and the consequence was that that crowded state of the gaol ensued which was allowed on all hands to be so objectionable. He trusted the attention of the Secretary of State would be directed to such a state of things; and, in conclusion, he had to express his satisfaction that his hon. Friend had brought forward his present Motion.

§ SIR G. GREY
hoped he might be allowed to say that he was ignorant of the facts just now stated to him by the hon. Member for Dorsetshire, but he would cause inquiry to be made into them.

§ SIR J. PAKINGTON
expressed his regret that this question had been brought on at this late period of the Session, and with the object expressed by the hon. Member for Pontefract. He was rather surprised that the hon. Gentleman had concluded with a Motion for leave to introduce a Bill, as he expected the hon. Gentleman intended to move the appointment of a Committee on the subject. When the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department came into office he had some conversation with him on this subject, and he certainly had been in hope that the right hon. Baronet would ere this have introduced a Bill to authorise the construction of an establishment for the reformation of juvenile offenders. He did not know whether his right hon. Friend was aware that the lady already referred to, Miss Murray, had suggested that the old prison at Dartmoor might be applied to this purpose. He would suggest that it might be advisable next Session to have a Committee appointed to investigate the whole of this intricate subject.

§ MR. HENLEY
expressed a hope that the hon. Member for Pontefract, in addition to the valuable speech with which he had favoured the House, would go one step further, and bring forward the Bill of which he had given notice. He would render a most valuable service to the House by so doing, because, although the Bill could not pass into a law this year, it would be a useful contribution to the fund of knowledge on this subject. Many Members were not able to see their way in this matter, and they would be very thankful for any information which could be imparted to them. No opposition was offered to the Motion, and therefore he trusted that they would soon have the advantage of seeing the Bill printed.

§ MR. M. MILNES
would follow the advice of the hon. Gentleman opposite, and lay 107 his Bill on the table some day before the House separated. The only reason that prevented him from doing so earlier was, that he thought he should get an assurance from his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that he would bring forward a measure on the subject himself either this Session or the next. He knew how difficult it was for individual Members to grapple with a question of this kind, and how much more desirable it was that it should be taken up by the Government. At the same time he would do his best to prepare the Bill and bring it under the consideration of the House.