§ On the Motion that the Order of the Day be read,
§ VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHsaid: In making the few observations which I have to submit, I throw myself altogether upon the indulgence of the House. I throw myself quite upon that indulgence in laying before you the correspondence which has passed between the noble Lord at the head of the Government and myself on the subject of the conference which took place yesterday.
§ MR. SPEAKERsaid, the Order of the Day had been moved, and he did not see how the noble Viscount could proceed in addressing the House on a different subject.
§ VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHI am quite aware that I am not in order, but I beg to throw myself on the indulgence of the House, and I assure hon. Members that I shall endeavour to render my observations as short as possible. It must be in the recollection of every one present that a few days ago the noble Lord at the head of the Government requested a meeting with those Members of this House who represent places in Ireland, in order to confer with them on certain propositions relating to the rate in aid proposed to be levied in Ireland. There were several Gentlemen who entertained strong opinions upon the subject of that rate, and who desired to have an opportunity of considering the propositions which they presumed the noble Lord was about to make to them. It was thought that the noble Lord intended to press for an immediate decision, and the Gentlemen who entertained sentiments adverse to the rate in aid, if the noble Lord should not give them twenty-four hours for consideration, were anxious to prepare an answer by themselves, and to communicate that at the meeting which took place. The hon. and learned Member for Limerick took a part in those proceedings, and was suffered to proceed with business of an extraneous nature, and Gentlemen were unable to decide who should express their sentiments as spokesman. The noble 460 Lord having, at the meeting, in Downingstreet, stated his proposition, I advanced towards him and attempted to attract his attention, but I did not succeed in obtaining a hearing. I have now further to state, that I was not present at the meeting of Gentlemen which assembled to consider beforehand the answer that they wished to be given to the noble Lord; but they came to me upon the subject, and I sought, as a common spokesman of those Gentlemen, to address the noble Lord. I ventured to hope, that in courtesy he would have heard me. Having failed in that object, I then addressed a letter to the noble Lord, a copy of which I beg permission to read to the House. It is as follows:—
My Lord—I was prepared to state to your Lordship to-day, not only for myself, but on behalf of a numerous and influential body of Irish Members, that whilst in deference to your position as First Minister of the Crown we attended the meeting in Downing-street, we were not prepared to pledge ourselves to the adoption of any particular tax to be imposed upon Ireland. We are not unwilling to discuss any proposal for this purpose upon its own merits in the House of Commons; but without hearing the arguments which might be adduced upon the question, and ascertaining the capability of Ireland to bear increased taxation, we could not be in a position to answer for our constituencies, and must, therefore, abstain offering any advice to the Government as to the course which it may think proper to adopt.—I am, &c.Prom the noble Lord I received the following answer:—My Lord—I have had the honour of receiving your letter of this day. I should have waited to hear your Lordship; but as several Members appeared to intimate that they did not wish me to do so, I thought it best to retire, otherwise I must have heard other Members, who do not belong to that numerous and influential body to which your Lordship alludes, and must have assisted at a debate, instead of receiving a decision.—I have the honour, &c.Having read these letters, I now leave the case to the House with only one remark, which is this, that the meeting to which I referred was a numerous and influential body. I hold in my hand a list containing the names of the Gentlemen who attended that meeting; and, if the noble Lord will look at those names, he will find that I have correctly described that meeting in calling it numerous and influential. I have now only to add, that the whole body of Irish Members came to the resolution which I stated in my letter to the noble Lord.
§ LORD J. RUSSELLAs the noble Viscount has thought it necessary to make this statement to the House, perhaps I may be allowed to submit one or two observations 461 upon it. In the first place, I beg to state to the noble Viscount, that so far from wishing to show any disrespect to him, I felt very much obliged to the noble Viscount, on whom I had no claim, for doing me the honour to meet me in Downing-street. In the next place, I have to state, that after explaining what the views of the Government were, I said I thought it would be better that the Gentlemen then present should take some time to consider the matter, and I hoped they would favour me with their answer or decision at an early hour this morning, in reference to the Motion which was to be brought forward tonight. The noble Lord, as I understood, intimated that he was prepared then to state what the opinion of the meeting was.
§ VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHNot the opinion of that meeting. I was in no way authorised to do so.
§ LORD J. RUSSELLThen, that he was prepared to state the opinion of—
§ VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHOf a very large meeting.
§ LORD J. RUSSELLWell, of a very large meeting. Before stating my intention to retire, I stopped to hear the noble Viscount's statement; but several other It then Gentlemen called out "No, no!" appeared to me, if I received the noble Lord's answer, I should not be receiving that of the meeting; other Gentlemen, after the noble Viscount's statement, would declare that they were no parties to it; therefore I should have been involved in a debate as to the real sense of the meeting, and, as my original intention was, I retired into the next room, stating that I would remain there, lest it should be thought desirable to receive any other explanation, which I was ready to give conformably to their wishes on the subject of the statement. I can only again assure the noble Viscount that I am sorry any misunderstanding should have arisen on this subject. If it is necessary to make any apology, I am ready to make an apology. I certainly did not intend any discourtesy to him.
§ VISCOUNT CASTLEREAGHintimated that he entirely acquitted the noble Lord of ony intentional discourtesy.
§ MR. DISRAELIthen rose and said: Sir, I have a remark to make on the singular statement of the noble Lord—
§ MR. SPEAKERobserved, that there was no Motion before the House, except the Order of the Day.
§ MR. DISRAELII shall conclude, Sir, 462 with a Motion. It is inconvenient and highly unconstitutional that the First Minister of the Crown should call such a meeting which recently assembled in Downing-street; and there has prevailed a feeling of universal surprise that a Minister so much attached to constitutional forms as the noble Lord at the head of the Government should have ever summoned such a meeting.
§ LORD J. RUSSELLThe House must see, if the hon. Gentleman be allowed to pursue this course of observation, that I shall be entitled to reply.
§ MR. SPEAKERI hope the House will at once see how much better it is in all such cases as this to adhere to the strict rules of order. I reminded the noble Viscount the Member for Down that the Order of the Day had been moved; but it appeared to be the wish of the House that he should proceed; and now I hope the House will support me in enforcing their own rules.
§ MR. DISRAELIsaid: In moving that the House do now adjourn, I conceived that I should be perfectly in order if I proceeded to make a few observations on the subject which the noble Lord behind me has brought under our notice. I can easily, however, find another opportunity for doing this; but I hope it will not be said that I have taken any time for preparation.