§ SIR JAMES GRAHAMSir, having heard the letter by Mr. Monahan with reference to the instructions given by the late Government respecting the selection of the jury in Mr. O'Connell's case, and believing also—although it is not quite regular that I should allude to it—that a similar reference, on a former evening, was made to this subject, on behalf of the late Government; and in justice to that Government, and with reference also to a point of fact, I may be allowed to assert, in the most positive manner, that the instructions given by the late Government, with reference to the striking off the jurors in Mr. O'Connell's case, were identical with the instructions made to Mr. Monahan given in the case to which the noble Lord has referred. The instructions were positive that no juror should be struck off that list on account of his religion, but that, whatever his religion might be, if he were tainted either by association or identity of communication with the opinions, with reference to repeal, entertained by Mr. O'Connell, then the power of the Crown to strike off jurors should be used. I assert most positively that the instructions are identical; and if it were necessary to go into detail, I could prove that ten Roman Catholics were struck off the jury in Mr. O'Connell's case—were struck off upon evidence that was satisfactory to the agent of the Crown that they were in political connexion with the Repeal Association; and on no occasion whatever was the power exercised with reference to religion.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLWhat I read, as proceeding from Lord Clarendon, certainly alluded to the charge which was brought against the late Government, but it is not in any way adopted by Lord Clarendon; but knowing that a charge was brought against the late Government, both Lord Clarendon and myself were alive to the necessity of preventing any accusation being brought against the present Government for a similar cause. I do not mean in the least to deny or impute that the instructions were not identical.
§ MR. BRIGHTSir, it is quite evident from what has passed in this House of late, and from what has been said to-night, that it was the opinion of the Government that it was highly desirable that the trial 5 of Mr. Mitchel should take place, and that a conviction should be obtained. Now, I am not the least disposed to complain of this opinion of the Government; but there is another thing at least as important for the pacification of Ireland, and for cementing, if possible, the union between the two countries—and it is this, that the people of Ireland should be fully convinced that in the trial of a person charged with a grave offence, whether political or otherwise, that person should have that fair trial which the constitution of this country offers, and declares shall be had by the meanest subject of the Crown. Now I am not about to say that Mr. Mitchel is not guilty of everything laid to his charge, nor will I, for a moment, say that the verdict that has been returned is not a verdict in accordance with the evidence and with the law. But, if we may judge from the reports which appear in the public papers—and those reports will be read not in England only, but throughout Great Britain—and not in Great Britain only, but by every person who can read in Ireland—it seems that there were 150 persons upon the panel; that of those only, if I mistake not, 28 were Roman Catholics, although it is represented, by the same authority, that the largest portion of jurors in Dublin are of the Roman Catholic persuasion; that of those 150 only sixty-five or seventy-five—seventy-five I think—answered to their names; that of these the Government had the power of striking off to an unlimited extent; that the prisoner had the power of striking off to a limited extent; and that the parties for the Crown struck off every person who was of the Roman Catholic religion. Now, it is quite possible that every one of those persons was known to have sympathised with the prisoner at the bar, and it is quite possible that not one of the eighteen persons was competent to give a fair verdict upon the case; but the people of Ireland will not so consider it; and as six-sevenths of the population of the country are of the Roman Catholic persuasion, I believe that the universal opinion among six-sevenths of the people will be, that they are not considered by the Government to be competent to give a fair opinion, or to be asked to take part in a jury which shall try a political offence in that country. Now, I am not bringing a charge against the Government. It is just possible that they had no other course open to them. But it is worth while to consider whether it is not our bounden duty to ascertain, if 6 possible, if there he means at the disposal of the House for bringing those six-sevenths of the population of Ireland in opinion, more in harmony and accordance, with the people and Government of this country, in order that these discreditable political trials may have an end, and that we may now have seen the last of them. I am persuaded that the deportation of Mr. Mitchel will not pacify Ireland. I hope that while the Government have shown the power of the law, and their determination to exert it, they will show an equal determination in—
§ MR. SPEAKERThere is the Address of Condolence.
§ MR. BRIGHTI say, Sir, while the Government have shown the power of the law and their determination—
§ MR. SPEAKERMembers who have preceded the hon. Gentleman have spoken upon the subject he is referring to.
§ MR. BRIGHTI am not disposed to trespass for a moment on the attention of the House beyond the time so important a case as this demands; and by this time I should have concluded my observations if the hon. Gentleman had not interrupted me. I say that as the Government have shown a determination to enfore the law, I call upon thorn to show to the people of Ireland that, whilst the law is to be enforced, there is also mercy in this House, from which the law emanates. I am perfectly certain of this, that the people of England would go with very great unanimity in favour of overturning and abolishing one of the institutions of Ireland, which has been in past times, and is now, at the root of most of the evils that afflict that country; and in my opinion your first step should be to take away the Church in Ireland, the members of which you declare are the only class you can take for your juries, thereby excluding six-sevenths of the population of Ireland. Such a state of things is disgraceful to this House, and cannot much longer be tolerated.
§ MR. GRATTANAllow me to say that my hon. Friend is quite mistaken in the Catholics, if he says that they cannot be got to convict. I believe it will be found that the Catholic juries are as honest as any of the Protestant juries. I have just 7 come over from Dublin. I stood upon Kingstown quay yesterday morning, and when it was heard that Mr. Mitchel was transported, I myself heard men and women in throngs cry out, "We never were Repealers until now, and now we will be Repealers for the rest of our days." I tell the Government that this is the greatest mistake they ever made. They have acted like cowards. They might have enforced the common law; but no, they came to this House, and obtained an abominable Act, which they have enforced. Mr. Mitchel may have sinned, but I would never murder a man in the dark. I say that there never was anything more monstrous than a Government getting an officer to pack a jury, and proceeding as they have done. Of the 5,000 names which that officer had to deal with, 4,000 were Catholics—a proportion of more than three to one. Yet, upon the panel list sent in by the sheriff, the proportion was one Catholic to five Protestants. My hon. Friend forgets that every Catholic was struck off. These monstrous proceedings will not only be read in England—for let me tell my hon. Friend that more people can read besides those in England—I tell my hon. Friend that they will be read in those countries where the fame of England is as dear to us as it ought to be to you. They will be read in France—they will be read by the millions of Irishmen in America; and what will they say and think? If this course be persisted in, you will want more than 50,000 soldiers in Dublin. Depend upon it that the time will come when your power will fall. You depend now upon other countries; but the day will come when that power will fail you, and when Ireland falls you must fall. The noble Lord's doctrine seems to be, that Ireland may fall, but England shall stand. You have surrounded Lord Clarendon with spies and informers. Let any Gentleman go to Dublin, and he will find more pikes in the Government buildings than anywhere else. I have made inquiries in my own immediate neighbourhood, and I could not find a pike anywhere. If the Government had left the matter in the hands of that excellent man, Lord Clarendon, his good sense and honest feeling and honest heart would have taught him the proper course for him to have pursued.
§ MR. BRIGHTIt seems as dangerous to defend Ireland as to attack her. The hon. Gentleman has entirely mistaken what I said with reference to Catholics 8 being on juries. I never expressed an opinion that they were not fit to be jurors; what I said was this, that the course which had been pursued led to the inference that the Government were of opinion that they could not trust Catholics upon juries. But then I say, if that be true, which I do not hold to be true, it leads to this conclusion, that six-sevenths of the population are not in harmony with the Government, and therefore cannot be called in to help the Government in carrying out the law. My belief is precisely in accordance with the opinion which the hon. Gentleman himself has been expressing; and I never was more astonished in my life than when the hon. Gentleman replied to me.
§ MR. E. B. ROCHEdissented from the principles of Mr. Mitchel as much as any man; but at the same time it was his belief that it was of the highest importance that if the Government had occasion to appeal to the laws of the country against those who opposed them, they should take care, for their own reputation, that the parties were tried by an impartial jury. He was bound to say, that after the letter which the noble Lord had read from Mr. Monahan, the people of Ireland would not consider that the jury had been impartially selected. Mr. Mitchel, after his conviction, had declared that 300 were prepared to do what he had done. The Government, therefore, would have to resort to juries again. In the letter which the noble Lord had read, it was said that every man professing repeal principles was to be struck off the jury. If it were necessary to strike off the list every man who was a repealer, it was impossible that Mr. Mitchel or any man who agreed with him could be tried by a fair and impartial jury. If the principle of Mr. Monahan's letter were to be carried out, it would be far better and more straightforward to abolish altogether trial by jury in Ireland.
§ MR. KEOGHobserved, that he had not objected to striking off juries persons holding repeal principles when the question was connected with repeal opinions. His objection was, that Roman Catholics of the highest respectability and of great wealth in the city of Dublin, and in no way attached to repeal principles, but opposed to them, had been struck off the jury by the Attorney General. He had stated that of his own knowledge, and should be glad to know from the Government the reason of their being struck off.
§ LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, he had given 9 the House all the information he had received, namely, the instructions which the Attorney General gave to the Crown Solicitor. If he received any further information, he would give it to the hon. Gentleman publicly in that House.
§ Motion agreed to nem. con. Address to be presented by Members of the House who are Members of the Privy Council.