HC Deb 07 June 1848 vol 99 cc471-5

On the further consideration of the Report,

MR. COLVILE

intended to propose an amendment in the first clause, with the view of raising the question as to retaining the fourth clause, which imposed certain restrictions as to the mode of killing hares. The hon. Member proposed that the words be loft out "by any means save as hereinafter excepted."

The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—Ayes 22; Noes 77: Majority 55.

List of the AYES.
Arkwright, G. Fox, W. J.
Brackley, Visct. Fuller, A. E.
Bremridge, R. Gwyn, H.
Broadley, H. Hildyard, R. C.
Brotherton, J. Hildyard, T. B. T.
Buck, L. W. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.
Crawford, W. S. Mulgrave, Earl of
Duncombe, hon. O. Sibthorp, Col.
Farnham, E. B. Smyth, J. G.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Thornhill, G.
Waddington, H. S. Willoughby, Sir H.
TELLERS.
Berkeley, hon. F. G. Berkeley, hon. F. H.
List of the NOES.
Armstrong, Sir A. Hodges, T. L.
Armstrong, R. B. Hope, Sir J.
Barrington, Visct. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Benbow, J. Kershaw, J.
Bennet, P. King, hon. P. J. L.
Birch, Sir T. B. Lewis, G. C.
Bouverie, hon. E. P. Mackenzie, W. F.
Brown, W. M'Taggart, Sir J.
Bruce, C. L. C. Maitland, T.
Carew, W. H. P. Matheson, J.
Christopher, R. A. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Clive, H. B. Melgund, Visct.
Cochrane, A.D.R.W.B. Monsell, W.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Morgan, H. K. G.
Cowan, C. O'Brien, J.
Cubitt, W. Ogle, S. C. H.
Davie, Sir H. R. F. Oswald, A.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Packe, C. W.
Divett, E. Patten, J. W.
Drummond, H. H. Pilkington, J.
Duncan, G. Pusey, P.
Ebrington, Visct. Rawdon, Col.
Egerton, W. T. Rutherfurd, A.
Ellice, E. Sidney, Ald.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Simeon, J.
Evans, W. Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.
Ewart, W. Spooner, R.
Fergus, J. Stafford, A.
Floyer, J. Stanton, W. H.
Fortescue, hon. J. W. Thicknesse, R. A.
French, F. Thompson, Col.
Frewen, C. H. Thornely, T.
Grenfell, C. W. Tollemache, J.
Haggitt, F. R. Trollope, Sir J.
Hanmer, Sir J. Wilson, M.
Hardcastle, J. A. Wrightson, W. B.
Harris, hon. Capt. Wyvill, M.
Hastie, A. TELLERS.
Headlam, T. E. Colvile, C. R.
Heywood, J. Seymer, H. K.

SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE moved that, after the word "description," in line 40, Clause 4, the words "by night" be added. His object was to give an opportunity to farmers to kill rabbits in the day-time by a gun, and thus to legalise the use of guns in the day-time. Hares might be very easily destroyed in moonlight nights; and he believed that the adoption of his proposition would tend to their preservation, as the farmers, when they possessed the right of shooting by day, would be inclined to aid the landlords in preventing poaching by night.

The House divided on the question that the words be added:—Ayes 78; Noes 18: Majority 60.

List of the AYES.
Armstrong, R. B. Bouverie, hon. E. P.
Barrington, Visct. Brackley, Visct.
Benbow, J. Brown, W.
Bennet, P. Carew, W. H. P.
Carter, J. B. Maitland, T.
Charteris, hon. F. Matheson, J.
Clive, H. B. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Melgund, Visct.
Crawford, W. S. Monsell, W.
Cubitt, W. Morgan, H. K. G.
Dalrymple, Capt. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Ogle, S. C. H.
Drumlanrig, Visct. Oswald, A.
Drummond, H. H. Packe, C. W.
Duncan, G. Pakington, Sir J.
Dundas, G. Patten, J. W.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Pechell, Capt.
Estcourt, J. B. B. Pilkington, J.
Evans, W. Pusey, P.
Ewart, W. Ricardo, O.
Floyer, J. Russell, hon. E. S.
Fox, W. J. Rutherfurd, A.
Freestun, Col. Seymer, H. K.
French, F. Sidney, Ald.
Frewen, C. H. Simeon, J.
Fuller, A. E. Smollett, A.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E Spooner, R.
Greene, T. Stafford, A.
Haggitt, F. R. Stanton, W. H.
Hardcastle, J. A. Stuart, Lord J.
Harris, hon. Capt. Thicknesse, R. A.
Heneage, G. H. W. Thompson, Col.
Heywood, J. Wilson, M.
Hodges, T. L. Wodehouse, E.
Hope, Sir J. Wrightson, W. B.
Kershaw, J. Wyvill, M.
King, hon. P. J. L. Young, Sir J.
Lewis, G. C.
Lygon, hon. Gen. TELLERS.
Mackenzie, W. F. Jolliffe, Sir W.
M'Taggart, Sir J. Colvile, C. R.
List of the NOES.
Arkwright, G. Hildyard, R. C.
Armstrong, Sir A. Hildyard, T. B. T.
Broadley, H. Repton, G. W. J.
Buck, L. W. Sibthorp, Col.
Christopher, R. A. Thornhill, G.
Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B. Waddington, H. S.
Coles, H. B. Willoughby, Sir H.
Duncombe, hon. O. TELLERS.
Ellice, E. Berkeley, hon G. F.
Fergus, J. Mulgrave, Earl of

On the question that the Bill be en-grossed,

MR. DRUMMOND

rose to oppose the Motion. A great deal had been said by hon. Members as to the modes in which hares might be killed. Some had spoken of killing them by snares. Some had spoken of killing them by guns. He wondered that no one had risen to point out the mode of putting salt on their tails. There was most certainly one interest, and one class not represented in that House; for much had been said against them, and nothing had been said in their favour—he meant the poachers. He had heard hon. Members also talk of the demoralisation of the system. He did not understand that. The poacher, in his opinion, was just a poor sportsman. If a sportsman had 10,000l., he went to Leicestershire and kept a pack of hounds. The young sportsman went to Leicestershire because he knew that there he would get the best foxhunting. When he became a little older he put up with hares; and at last he dwindled down to rabbits. Now, the poacher, he repeated, was nothing else but a poor statesman. Wherever there was a pack of hounds, he went with them as much for the love of sport as for anything else. There was another class, he admitted, who went out determined to shoot everything—not only pheasants, which were foolish enough to cry out and let them know where they were, but also sheep and poultry. That class of persons, he knew, were mixed up with poachers; but they were a different class. Now, as to the demoralisation of sporting, he begged to say that there were a great many noblemen and gentlemen in that House who spent a great deal of time in foxhunting, instead of attending to the business of legislation; and he could not see but that this system was as demoralising for them as for others. What he wanted to do was, to amend very slightly the Little Trespass Act, and then to get rid of the game laws altogether. They were iniquitous in their original establishment—they were an act of tyranny which he should be glad to see entirely removed; and he must say he thought it was discreditable to the House, instead of employing themselves in doing that, to waste a whole day on a paltry question of this kind.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

could not agree with the hon. Member, that the game laws should be abolished altogether; but, objecting as he did to the Bill then before the House, he would be prepared to oppose it on the third reading.

MR. W. S. CRAWFORD

agreed with the hon. Member for West Surrey in opposing this Bill altogether. He regarded this Bill as a practical delusion. It professed to relieve farmers from the influence of the game laws; whereas in reality it gave them no satisfaction whatever. He considered that no real good would be done without the entire abrogation of the game laws.

MR. ELLIOT

could not agree with the hon. Member who had just sat down, that the Bill would do no good. It would relieve small proprietors, whose estates were in the neighbourhood of game-preserving landowners; and it would also protect the tenants of other parties who were not game preservers. The present Bill would benefit small proprietors, who had no power at present of avoiding the mischief done to their property, and who, at the same time, had no compensation awarded to them for the property destroyed.

MR. G. BERKELEY

begged to say, that there was a great deal of false sympathy with poachers. It had been proved, before a Committee on this subject, that there was scarcely a crime of which they were not guilty. If they abolished the game laws, they must have a Trespass Act, which would be ten times more stringent and ten times more unpopular than the game laws.

The House divided on the question that the Bill be engrossed:—Ayes 90; Noes 11:—Majority 79.

List of the AYES.
Anstey, T. C. Heneage, G. H. W.
Armstrong, Sir A. Heywood, J.
Armstrong, R. B. Hodges, T. L.
Bagshaw, J. Hope, Sir J.
Barrington, Visct. Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.
Benbow, J. Kershaw, J.
Bennet, P. King, hon. P. J. L.
Berkeley, hon. G. F. Langston, J. H.
Blackall, S. W. Mackenzie, W. F.
Bouverie, hon. E. P. M'Taggart, Sir J.
Brackley, Visct. Maitland, T.
Brown, W. Matheson, J.
Carew, W. H. P. Maule, rt. hon. F.
Carter, J. B. Morgan, H. K. G.
Charteris, hon. F. Mostyn, hon. E. M. L
Clay, J. Mulgrave, Earl of
Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. Mure, Col.
Clive, H. B. Ogle, S. C. H.
Cobbold, J. C. Oswald, A.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Pakington, Sir J.
Cowan, C. Patten, J. W.
Cubitt, W. Pechell, Capt.
Dalrymple, Capt. Pilkington, J.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Pusey, P.
Drummond, H. H. Rawdon, Col.
Duncan, G. Ricardo, O.
Dundas, G. Russell, hon. E. S.
Dunne, F. P. Rutherfurd, A.
Ellice, rt. hon. E. Sheridan, R. B.
Ellice, E. Sidney, Ald.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Smollett, A.
Estcourt, J. B. B. Spooner, R.
Evans, W. Stanton, W. H.
Ewart, W. Stuart, Lord J.
Fergus, J. Talfourd, Serj.
Floyer, J. Thicknesse, R. A.
Foley, J. H. H. Thompson, Col.
Forbes, W. Thornely, T.
Fox, W. J. Willoughby, Sir H.
Freestun, Col. Wilson, M.
Frewen, C. H. Wodehouse, E.
Gladstone, rt. hon. W. E Wrightson, W. B.
Greene, T. Wyvill, M.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Haggitt, F. R. TELLERS.
Hardcastle, J. A. Colvile, C. R.
Harris, hon. Capt. Stafford, A.
List of the NOES.
Buck, L. W. Gwyn, H.
Coles, H. B. Hildyard, R. C.
Crawford, W. S. Thornhill, G.
Drumlanrig, Visct. Waddington, H. S.
Duncombe, hon. O. TELLERS.
Du Pre, C. G. Cochrane, A.D.R.W.B.
Fuller, A. E. Drummond, H.

Bill to be engrossed.