HC Deb 26 July 1848 vol 100 cc889-94

On the Motion that the House resolve itself into Committee,

SIR J. WALSH

said, that the measure was neither more nor less than an attempt to carry into effect a policy which had recently met in Prance with a signal failure, namely, to convert the Government into great employers of labour; and the mode by which it was proposed to attain this result was by invading, in the first instance, the rights and property of individuals. It was, indeed, practically impossible to carry out the propositions of the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope). It was true that there was a great deal of land lying waste in Ireland, and much of it susceptible of improvement. It was true that capital might be profitably employed in a great many localities in reclaiming land; but it was not true that the Government could by any possibility be successful agents in carrying out any plan for that purpose. Neither was it true that, under the provisions of the present Pill, a remedy could be found for that destitution and overcrowded state of particular districts which formed the source of most serious evils and grievances connected with the social state of Ireland. He should be curious enough to know whether the hon. Member for Stroud had any practical acquaintance with Ireland—whether he had ever seen Ireland in his life, or reclaimed one single acre, rood, or perch of bog? The hon. Gentleman's experience was theoretical rather than practical. The case of Chat Moss had been referred to as showing what might be done in the way of reclaiming waste lands. But Chat Moss was situated in the most dense manufacturing district of England; it was traversed by a railway connecting two of the most important towns of the country; and the facilities thus afforded for disposing of agricultural produce held out the strongest possible inducement to bring it into cultivation. Even in Chat Moss, however, a very small advance had been made towards the reclamation of that great waste; for, though a fringe of land near the railroad had been brought into cultivation, and produced fine crops, it would be found that—though the railroad had been in existence nearly twenty years—a considerable portion of the Moss was still unreclaimed. Now, he thought English Members should clearly understand what was meant by "waste lands" in Ireland. They were apt to picture to themselves large tracks like Salisbury Plain, or the commons which were to be seen in some parts of England. But what was termed "waste land" in Ireland was either down-right red bog, or mountain—which, in the Irish signification of the term, did not mean a hilly elevation, but land of a boggy nature, the boggy soil not being very deep, which afforded coarse pasturage. The reclamation of the deep red bogs, which he understood was the scheme the hon. Gentleman proposed to carry out by this Bill at the expense of the country, would be attended with great cost. But when a great expense had been incurred in draining tracts of land and placing them in a state fit for cultivation, the next step proposed to be taken under this Bill was to sell the reclaimed land in portions of from ten to 100 acres, or to let it on lease for ninety-nine or 999 years. Now, it must be remembered that the great mass of the population who crowded estates in Ireland were in so destitute a condition that they were utterly unable to purchase such lands, and they neither possessed agricultural implements, nor had they the means of buying them. Did the hon. Gentleman mean, then, to afford to the cotter a ten-acre allotment, and also to give him a grant of money out of the public funds, to enable him to purchase fanning stock and implements? If the hon. Gentleman thought that he would improve the existing state of Ireland by allotting the reclaimed lands in such small divisions as to multiply the cotter population, he was greatly mistaken, for the only effect of such a measure would be to spread more extensively that pauperism which was one of the great evils of the country. Believing that this measure would wholly fail to produce any good effects, and that, at a moment of embarrassed finance, it would plunge the country into great expense, he would move that the House go into Committee that day three months.

MR. P. SCROPE

said, the hon. Member for Radnorshire (Sir J. Walsh) was mistaken in supposing that this was his (Mr. Scrope's) Bill. It was introduced by the hon. Member for Roscommon (Mr. French), who was an Irish landlord, and the representative of an Irish county, and who possessed a local acquaintance with the state of Ireland, which the hon. Baronet had said that he (Mr. Scrope) did not possess. He (Mr. Scrope) might, however, claim to be well acquainted with the state of that country; for he had taken every pains to acquire information on the subject by a perusal of the blue books which had been presented to Parliament during the last thirty years. He had also turned his attention particularly to the subject of this Bill, and he believed that such a measure would tend very materially to improve the condition of the Irish people. He had that morning read a letter of Lord Cloncurry, which appeared in the Dublin Evening Post; and that noble Lord, after deprecating the excitement which at present prevailed in Ireland, observed that the great grievance under which the population of that country had been groaning for years, and which they were now attempting to repress by violent measures, might be stated in four words—"idle lands—idle hands." He agreed in opinion with the noble Lord; and on this ground he asked the House to consider the present Bill. The hon. Baronet had said that this Bill was an attempt to introduce into Ireland the same policy which had recently been adopted in Prance, and to establish in Ireland ateliers nationaux. He contended that this was an unfounded assertion. The characteristic of the ateliers nationaux of Paris was the support, in houses similar to the Irish workhouse, of large bodies of ablebodied men, without any employment; but the object of this Bill was to give productive employment to the ablebodied poor of Ireland, and thus to add to add to resources of the country. The hon. Baronet had called this a measure for invading the rights of property; but he (Mr. Scrope) denied that such a charge was justifiable. This Bill would not infringe the rights of property, but would only prevent property from being maintained in a state of barrenness in the midst of a population starving for want of food, and idle for want of employment. As to the supposed cost of the plan, it must be remembered that it was not proposed to locate paupers upon these lands; it seemed to be forgotten that there were thousands of farmers emigrating from Ireland to America with 50l., or 100l., or 200l. in their pockets. The experiment of locating persons on the uncultivated land of Ireland had already been tried successfully by Captain Kennedy upon several estates of which he had the management; it was only because other landlords would not follow that example, but preferred seeing their lands lie useless and waste, that it was necessary for the Legislature to interfere. The hon. Member could scarcely have read the Bill when he spoke as he did respecting the expense. Besides, how were the able-bodied population of Ireland now maintained? Was it not by public money—by the money of the people of England? What was the new Public Works Bill but supplementing the poor-rates with a loan of 1,600,000l? Why not put the "idle hands" to the" idle lands" of Ireland? The hon. Member might speak of waste land that was not worth reclaiming, but at all events there were millions of acres which might be reclaimed at a profit, just as well as Chat Moss, parts of which were now paying 10 per cent. The hon. Baronet asked if he (Mr. P. Scrope) was a practical reclaimer of waste land; surely it was not necessary, in order to his dealing with his subject, that he should himself have handled a spade; but certainly he had an interest in the reclamation of some land. However, he would refer to a recent letter from one who was at all events a practical reclaimer, and a most intelligent man, a member of the Society of Friends—Mr. S. Robinson, of Clara Hall. That gentleman said that it was the height of insanity to allow such a fine island to go to ruin for want of a few wise laws, and he stated, that in 1838 he commenced the reclamation of 104 acres, and this year there had been sold 710l. worth of produce from them; that his expenditure in labour upon that land amounted to 300l.; and that there were 2,000,000 of acres of waste equally capable of improvement; so there had been 4,000,000l. lost this year to the produce market, and 6,000,000l. had been lost to the labour market. Things could not go on as they were. Let Parliament legislate even at the eleventh hour, or though the twelfth was striking, for the maintenance of the industrious population of Ireland upon the soil of Ireland, which was so well capable of returning an abundant profit. Want of employment had been the cause of disaffection; the flag of "Repeal" really meant—"If you will not legislate so as to enable us to maintain ourselves on the land God has given us, then let us legislate for ourselves." "Ireland for the Irish" meant that the Irish should be allowed to live in Ireland, and enabled to make use of the resources of a land which would maintain far more than its present population. But the land had been placed in the unconditional power of its few proprietors; they had been allowed to do with it and with the population what they pleased; to keep up those barren wastes to which this measure related; and to sweep the population off the face of the land.

SIR G. GREY

said, he had been disappointed when he read this Bill, for his hon. Friend, on moving for leave to bring it in, said he should not require any Government machinery or any public money to carry it into effect; but he must say that that pledge had hardly been kept, because it was proposed that the working of the Bill should be under the superintendence of a Commission. His hon. Friend said the commission was to be unpaid; but he doubted whether the Government would not be called upon afterwards to provide salaries for the officers required. His hon. Friend suggested that the Poor Law Commissioners should be invested with the largo powers proposed to be conferred on the Government by this Bill; but be was of opinion that nothing could be more injurious to the operation of the poor-law than that those powers should be centered in the Commissioners. He was not prepared to deny that there were extensive tracts of land which were not occupied, and which might be brought into profitable cultivation; but much that was called "waste land" was private property, belonging to gentlemen who kept it as sheep-walks or moors. But how did his hon. Friend propose to find funds requisite for carrying the Bill into effect? The expenses must be immediate, whilst the profits of the scheme were future and contingent; and his hon. Friend could not be so sanguine as to suppose that any capitalists would advance the money that would be required unless on the direct credit of the Government. He thought that the best mode of reclaiming these waste lands was by private companies; and, though he was not prepared to say that the assistance of Parliament might not be necessary for attaining that desirable object, yet he did not think that there ought to be any direct agency on the part of the Government in such reclamation, by which they would, in fact, become large purchasers and land agents. Looking, therefore, to the machinery of this Bill, he could not give his assent to its further progress, and he hoed his hon. Friend would not press his Motion to a division.

Bill put off for three months.

House adjourned at Six o'clock.