HC Deb 24 July 1848 vol 100 cc764-6

House in Committee.

On the question— That a sum not exceeding 1,336,880l. (being part of the sum of 3,830,880l., of which 2,500,000l. had been granted) be granted to Her Majesty to defray the Charge of Land Forces for Service in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland," &c.—


was understood to say, in reply to Sir DE L. EVANS, that this was the first time he had heard of a claim on the part of the officers referred to by the hon. and gallant Member—certain officers on the full-pay retired list—to continue to progress in rank in the Army on occasion of a brevet. If promotion by brevet were extended to them, the honorary distinction would carry with it no charge upon the State; but it might be a question whether the practice would be a convenient one: it might give an impression that our list of general officers was much greater, with reference to efficiency, than the fact would warrant. As a matter of good-nature and kindness, he (Mr. F. Maule) should certainly have no objection himself to oblige these veterans; at the same time, to himself it would be a matter of very little concern whether he was called major or lieutenant colonel.


said, that the treatment of officers in the Army was infamous. The services of meritorious men were overlooked if they happened to have no connexions. Take the Caffre war, for instance. The whole brunt of it was borne by three or four officers; but Colonel Somerset, Captain Hogg, and Captain Bisset, received nothing but empty thanks in despatches and gazettes. And forsooth, Mr. Bulwer, Mr. Trevelyan, and Mr. Chadwick were honoured with the rank of C. B.! The fact was, that the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies was actually Secretary at War in regard to them; he had the whole disposition of the colonial force, and settled what regiments were to he sent out. The old colonels who went out from England were put to Captain Bisset to be taught how to conduct a Caffre war. But these officers, to the disgrace of the country, were pushed aside and neglected for younger men, who had never even been called out in a street riot, and who had no claim to promotion but their high connexions. These things would not be suffered to continue much longer.


, so far as he had seen the course of procedure at the Horse Guards, believed there was great fairness exhibited in that department in the management of the Army, and in regard to promotion. With respect to this Caffre war, who was the first person that was named by the hon. Member as neglected? Colonel Somerset, a most intimate connexion of the man said to be all-powerful at the Horse Guards—the nephew of Lord F. Somerset. The reason why no decoration had been bestowed upon Captain Hogg was, that he could not, according to the regulations, obtain one, on consequence of not being of higher rank than a captain.

Vote agreed to.

On the question that the sum of 168,237l. should be granted to defray the charge of the general staff serving in Great Britain and Ireland and on foreign stations, and in the garrison of the Tower of London, for the year ending the 31st of March, 1849,


considered the staff of the Army worthy of the consideration of the House. He thought the office of Master General of the Ordnance and that of Commander at the Horse Guards should be held by one person. He would knock off 1,000l. a year from the allowance to the Duke of Wellington as Constable of the Tower of London. Then there were various other items in this estimate which he considered to be wholly unnecessary. There was 122l. a year to the physician; the paltry charge of 10l. to the apothecary; 8l. to the gentleman-porter; 66l. to the gentleman-gaoler; and then there were 40 yeomen-wardens, whoso receipts amounted to 848l. The sum altogether which these items made up was 3,911l. 10s. 8d., and he begged to move that the vote be reduced by that amount.


said, that the whole of the establishment of the Tower had been frequently under the review of the Committees of the House, and it had also been under the review of the Military Commission. He should be the last man under any circumstances to propose a reduction of the sum paid to the present Constable of the Tower. But all these questions would come before and be inquired into in detail by the Committees of the House; and if that Committee should propose a reduction of these charges, the House, no doubt, would give their recommendations effect.

The Committee divided on the question, that the sum be 164,326l.:—Ayes 21; Noes 69: Majority 48.

List of the AYES.
Blewitt, R. J. O'Connor, F.
Bowring, Dr. Pilkington, J.
Brotherton, J. Reynolds, J.
Clay, J. Smith, J. B.
Cobden, R. Thompson, Col.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Thompson, G.
Crawford, W. S. Wakley, T.
Fagan, W. Wawn, J. T.
Hastie, A. Williams, J.
M'Gregor, J. TELLERS.
Mitchell, T. A. Hume, J.
Mowatt, F. Osborne, R.
List of the NOES.
Abdy, T. N. Fox, R. M.
Anson, hon. Col. Freestun, Col.
Armstrong, Sir A. Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Armstrong, R. B. Grace, O. D. J.
Bellew, R. M. Greene, T.
Bentinck, Lord G. Grenfell, C. W.
Blackall, S. W. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Buller, C. Gwyn, H.
Bunbury, E. H. Hamilton, G. A.
Cardwell, E. Hay, Lord J.
Clay, Sir W. Hayter, W. G.
Craig, W. G. Henley, J. W.
Dawson, hon. T. V. Herbert, rt. hon. S.
Drumlanrig, Visct. Hood, Sir A.
Drummond, H. Jervis, Sir J.
Dundas, A. Langston, J. H.
Dunne, F. P. Lennard, T. B.
Egerton, W. T. Lindsay, hon. Col.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Lockhart, A. E.
Fitzpatrick, rt. hon. J. W. M'Cullagh, W. T.
Floyer, J. Marshall, W.
Matheson, Col. Stafford, A.
Maule, rt. hon. F. Stephenson, R.
Monsell, W. Tancred, H. W.
Morison, Sir W. Thornely, T.
Palmer, R. Turner, E.
Parker, J. Vivian, J. E.
Reid, Col. Vyse, R. H. R. H.
Rice, E. R. Ward, H. G.
Romilly, Sir J. Williamson, Sir H.
Russell, F. C. H. Wilson, J.
Rutherford, A. Wilson, M.
Sandars, G. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Sheil, rt. hon. R. L. TELLERS.
Simeon, J. Tufnell, H.
Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W. Rich, H.

Original proposition agreed to.

Other votes agreed to.

House resumed. Report to be received.