§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIn rising to move the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply, I think it advisable to state the course which Her Majesty's Ministers consider it fit to pursue with regard to some of the estimates which have been already laid on the table of the House. I find on the Notice-paper a notice given by the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) of a Motion for postponing altogether a Committee of Supply on the Navy and Army Estimates, until the House shall have decided on the proposal made by my noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury on Friday night. To that Motion of the hon. Member it is impossible that Her Majesty's Ministers can accede, for it reverses entirely the constitutional mode of proceeding, which always requires that a Vote of Supply should precede a Committee of Ways and Means. If I were to propose in a Committee of Ways and Means any vote not warranted by a previous vote in a Committee of Supply, you Sir, according to the principle and practice of Parliamentary proceedings, would at once stop the vote. The invariable course of proceeding, first by a vote in Committee of Supply, and afterwards by a vote in Committee of Ways and Means, is fully justified by reason and common sense; because it is the duty of the House in the first place to determine what expenditure is required for the purpose of maintaining all those establishments which are indispen- 988 sably necessary for upholding the honour and interests of the country. Votes for these purposes are passed in a Committee of Supply Then comes the consideration of the means by which this expenditure is to be provided for; but there is no man, I conceive, who would say, that although in determining how those means are to be provided it is our duty to consider the manner by which it may be done in the least burdensome form to the people, yet that the amount of the vote itself is to be regulated by the productiveness of the taxes from year to year. If, on the one hand, there happened to be a surplus revenue, it would be no justification of an extravagant vote in a Committee of Supply; and so, on the other hand, if occasionally it happened that adverse circumstances should diminish the amount of revenue, we should not on that account be warranted in determining that a just and necessary expenditure should not be maintained. The practice, therefore, always has been, and always must be, in the first instance, to determine what money shall be granted to Her Majesty for the purpose of defraying the necessary expenses of the country; and when that has been determined by the House in a Committee of Supply, it then, and not till then, becomes the duty of the Government to propose to the House to consider in what way the means can be raised in the least objectionable manner to meet the previous Votes of Supply. Therefore the proposal made by my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, is one which it is impossible for Her Majesty's Government to adopt. On Monday next it will be my duty to state the reason why Her Majesty's Ministers propose that mode of taxation which my noble Friend stated on Friday night. On that subject, therefore, I shall on this occasion make no observation. I am now merely stating the order in which our proceedings must take place; namely, that a Vote of Supply must necessarily precede a Vote of Ways and Means. In determining what the amount of supply ought to be, Her Majesty's Government, after taking into consideration the circumstances of the country, have felt it their duty to propose a sum which is not a very great increase on the estimates of the previous year. There appeared to prevail an impression among some hon. Members on the former evening, and which impression seems to have in some degree operated out of doors, that the increased taxation now proposed, is 989 solely owing to increased estimates, and that those estimates were entirely of a military and warlike character. It seemed to be the opinion that increased taxation was rendered necessary by some enormous scheme of military defence; in fact, that Her Majesty's Ministers were proposing additional taxation for the purposes of war. Now, I do hope that both this House and the country have since given a little further consideration to what actually fell from my noble Friend on Friday night; and that, having duly attended to the figures stated by my noble Friend, they are now convinced that such an impression is entirely mistaken and unfounded. Referring to the statement made by my noble Friend, it must be obvious to all that the figures stated by him, founded upon estimates sanctioned by the last Parliament, and upon an expenditure over which we had no control, which was past and gone, showed a deficiency of no less than 2,500,000l., which acccording to the usual practice must be provided for out of the taxation for the next year. That, therefore, is a cause, without any increase in the estimates for the present year, why there should be a demand made for further taxation. But, in addition to that, much of the increased expenditure is for purposes of as pacific a nature as it is possible to conceive. Whoever will take the trouble to go over the statement made by my noble Friend, will see that there is a great increase in the Miscellaneous Estimates, arising chiefly from additional expenses consequent on the maintenance of convicts, the burden of which is now thrown upon the general taxation of the country, instead of being, as heretofore, borne by local taxation. This, indeed, is rather a transfer than an increase of charge on the nation. Then there are charges relating to the fittings up of the New Houses of Parliament, and likewise charges connected with the British Museum, and also to an increase of charge for printing and for other purposes of a similar character. Now, surely, these have not the slightest connexion with either the Military or Naval Estimates. But these are not all; there are other expenses which swell the deficiency for the present year, which, although in the Naval Estimates, are not for military purposes. Among these may be mentioned the cost for sending out ships in search of Sir J. Franklin, and the expedition under his care on a voyage of discovery to the North Pole; and also a charge which can- 990 not strictly be considered to be of a military character, but, even if so, was nevertheless sanctioned, or rather, I may say, suggested by this House—I mean, the increased pay given to certain petty officers, and the expenses incurred by giving up the poundage hitherto deducted on paying the pensions of seamen and marines. All these expenses, the House will see, were in no degree for military purposes—not for purposes even of defence, still less of aggression. Another impression, I find, has also gone abroad, that such an increase of force, small as it is, as is now proposed, is only the beginning of a large and permanent increase of our naval and military establishments. How any such impression could be derived from what fell from my noble Friend on Friday last, I am quite at a loss to understand. There was nothing, I think I may venture to say, in the proceedings of the past Government, and there has been nothing, I unhesitatingly affirm, in the conduct of the present Government, that could warrant any such conclusion. Nothing, in my opinion, is more to be deprecated on the part of any Government than to make a great parade of the armaments of the country, or to make any ostentatious preparation for war. What I understood to fall from my noble Friend on a previous occasion was, that he considered nothing more mischievous than the adoption of a course of that kind; because he believed that any misapprehension as to our intentions was more likely than any other course of proceeding, to lead to those evil consequences which Her Majesty's Ministers deprecate above all things. The view which Her Majesty's Government take in respect to any deficiency in the Navy or Army establishments is, that whenever any such deficiency becomes evident the subject should from time to time be brought under the consideration of Parliament. That is the course which has been pursued by all previous Governments. Whenever a deficiency appeared, the matter was brought before Parliament, and the deficiency was duly supplied. What is now proposed to be done is in strict accordance with the course which has hitherto been pursued, of making those additions to our national defences which it is absolutely necessary from time to time to adopt. Of this the House and the people may be well assured, that Her Majesty's Ministers will do nothing which they do not consider to be essentially necessary, and at the same time conducive to the preservation of the peace of this 991 country and of Europe. Sir, that so much apprehension should have prevailed on this subject, is to me not more a matter of astonishment than regret. There is, I can venture to affirm, no object which Her Majesty's Ministers have so much at heart as the preservation of peace, and that the House of Commons should be satisfied on the necessity for the proposed expenditure for this year. But it must be obvious that many of the explanations which it is desirable to afford, are of such a nature that they cannot very conveniently be made in this House. There are many subjects on which it is not convenient to go into detail in the House of Commons itself, but which, nevertheless, should be stated in justification of many measures which Her Majesty's Government may deem it essentially necessary to adopt. And therefore it is of necessity that Her Majesty's Ministers propose that a Select and Secret Committee be appointed to examine into the expenditure of the Navy, Army, and Ordnance Departments, and to which generally the expenses for those services may be referred. To that Committee will be referred all papers and documents prepared by the heads of the various Departments; and both they and other persons the most capable of affording information on the subjects to be inquired into, will of course appear before the Committee for examination. This Committee will be distinct from the one for the appointment of which I shall move to-morrow. That Committee will be one to inquire into the expenditure for Miscellaneous Services, and to report to the House whether any reductions can be effected, or improvements made, in the mode of submitting that branch of the public expenditure to Parliament. I may state that Committees of the nature of that to which I have just referred, namely, to inquire into the circumstances connected with the finances of the country, especially in relation to the expenditure of the Navy, Army, and Ordnance, have been appointed by the House of Commons at various times. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel) was Minister in 1828, he moved for an appointment of a Finance Committee, which was the last Committee of the kind that has been appointed. On that occasion the right hon. Gentleman reminded the House that from the year 1786 downwards, when the first Committee of that description was appointed, Finance Committees had been pretty nearly at equal 992 intervals of ten years appointed down to 1828. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the first Committee was appointed in 1786, after which similar Committees were appointed in 1791, in 1796, in 1807, and in 1817; and the right hon. Gentleman was then proposing the appointment of a like Committee in 1828. It is now twenty years since such a Committee sat. A somewhat similar Committee sat in 1834 on the subject of the Colonial Military Expenditure. Lord Stanley was at that time Colonial Secretary; and the Committee was afterwards reappointed on the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), who was in 1835 Under Secretary for the Colonial Department. Under all the circumstances, therefore, I am of opinion that it would afford much more complete information to the House on the subject of the expenditure which may be deemed necessary for the public service, if all the information bearing upon the various causes for that expenditure should be laid before a Select Committee, than could be obtained by any partial, and, therefore, necessarily imperfect information, that could be given in a Committee of the whole House. As to the mode in which the Committee should be constituted, I beg to assure the House that Her Majesty's Government have no wish but that it should be fairly and impartially appointed. With regard to the vote of this evening, I find, on referring to the course pursued in 1845, that when it was proposed to renew the income-tax, no discussion of the estimates occurred during the interval of the proposal being made by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel), and the time when the House came to a decision upon the question. We now propose to follow that example, so far as any full discussion of the estimates is concerned; but it is necessary for the public service that a vote of the House should immediately be taken; and I hope, after this explanation, the House will not object to agree to such votes as are necessary for carrying on the service of the country. I hope the House will allow my hon. Friends the Secretary at War and the Secretary for the Navy to propose votes for those great heads of expenditure which are required at this period of the year. It was with a view to this that on Friday I recommended my right hon. Friend the Secretary at War to give notice of the Army Estimates, and my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty of 993 the Navy Estimates, for to-night, in order that money might be provided to meet some of those great heads of expenditure; and I hope the House will not object to the votes being taken. I have only further to say, that I hope this will induce hon. Gentlemen to abstain from pressing any discussion, either on the estimates or the budget to-night. On Monday it will be my duty to state very fully the views of the Government with regard to the proposal for taxation; and I submit that with reference to the detailed discussion on the estimates, it clearly will be far better to postpone it, and allow the subject to be referred to the Committee, as a desultory discussion cannot but be most unsatisfactory, as it does not disclose a full and fair view of any subject discussed, and as the opinion of the House cannot be taken—hardly indicated—on any one proposition submitted to it, it really will conduce to the despatch of public business, and to the satisfactory consideration of every one of the elements of future discussion, if hon. Members will abstain until the subject shall be fairly brought before the House. With these observations, stating what the course of the Government will be, I beg to move the Order of the Day for the Committee of Supply.
§ MR. HUMEfelt bound to state to the House, in a few words, the grounds upon which he had expressed his dissatisfaction with the proposal of the noble Lord. He had expressed himself warmly, because he felt warmly, having been much disappointed; and he would explain to the House why he did so, and in what way he differed from the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down with regard to the course which the House and the country ought to adopt. The right hon. Gentleman said that it was the duty of the House to look to the estimate first, without any regard to the means of providing for it. He had always contested that point, on the ground that the Government ought to act upon the same principle that actuated the head of a family in entering upon any new expenditure. Every one would admit that it was the duty of a man, before he set up a carriage or a new house, to see that he had the means of supporting it; and no one would sympathise with him, if, instead of following that rule, he started his carriage and then found he had not the means of maintaining it. Upon the same principle he felt it to be his duty to object to the House going into these estimates till they had considered whether the means could 994 be obtained. The impression which had been created in his mind by the speech of the noble Lord on Friday night was shared in by many of his (Mr. Hume's) Friends around him. His own impression and that of Gentlemen around him was, that a more hostile speech with respect to France had not for a long time been made. However, he was glad that the impression was an erroneous one. With respect to the expenditure and income of the country, he held in his hand two balance-sheets, one for 1846, and the other for 1847. The first balance-sheet was signed by Mr. Card well, and showed the amount of income for the year 1846 to be 51,217,000l.; the other balance-sheet was signed by Mr. Parker, and showed the income for the year ending 5th April, 1847, to be 51,240,000l. The House would bear in mind that there were 4,500,000l. expended in the collection, which would make the revenue nearly 56,000,000l. in both years. The former showed an excess of income over expenditure of 3,800,000l., and the latter an excess of expenditure over income of 2,956,000l.; thus making a difference in the two periods of not less than 6,756,000l. He would ask whether, with such a statement before him, he was not justified in endeavouring to stop the proceedings of the Government until some inquiry was instituted? Whether it were not the duty of the House to ascertain whether a reduction of the public expenditure could not be made; or whether it were absolutely necessary to incur this great expense in order to support the institutions of the country? This suggestion was made by him before the noble Lord opened his financial statement. On hearing that statement, he learned, to his surprise, that instead of retrenching the expenditure, the Government actually felt it necessary to increase the taxation to the extent of 3,500,000l.; and he could not resist making the observations which he did on Friday night. In the year 1846 the interest on the funded and unfunded debt was increased by half a million. The year before the interest amounted to 28,140,000l., and in 1846 it was 28,530,000l., being a difference of upwards of 400,000l. He had always advocated the plan of converting the whole debt into terminable annuities; but he would not go into that now. In the time of which he spoke between 400,000l. and 500,000l. of terminable annuities fell in, which ought to have made a reduction by that amount. Considering 995 these things, he was certainly startled when the noble Lord proposed to increase the income-tax. This was a subject really of grave consideration, looking to the distress which existed—distress which was felt not only by the working classes, but by the shopkeepers and small householders, and others dependent upon daily trade. Let any Member of the Government or of that House take any public street of shops, and inquire of the inhabitants the state of trade—he would find a most lamentable state of things. Few were buying, and the shopkeepers were scarcely able to pay their parish rates; and if this were so, there must be something wrong in the distribution of the national income, and that instead of increasing the expenditure they ought to see if some retrenchments could not be made. For instance, he held in his hand a paper moved for by his hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding, containing an account of the naval force we had in Portugal. From that paper it appeared that there had been from ten to eighteen ships there. In September there were ten ships with 754 guns, and nearly 7,000 men. Why, the maintenance of that force would make up the deficiency of which they were complaining. He was prepared to lay before the House the expenses incurred in the attempt to put a stop to the slave trade. At the commencement of the present Session he moved for returns, for the purpose of showing what had been the number of ships employed on the coast of Africa for that purpose. He did that thinking that the estimates required to be reduced; but no such returns had yet been laid before the House. One return had been furnished; but it appeared to him to be so incorrect that he required other returns in order to test its accuracy. It appeared by a paper on the table of the House, that there were 46 ships, mounting 279 guns, and carrying a very large number of men, cruising on the coast of Africa to suppress the slave trade. In addition to this, there was a great waste of the resources of the country. He only mentioned these things as examples. Then again it appeared that both France and America were forced into expenses on account of our measures relating to the slave trade. It appeared that in 1846 the cost to France was 5,119,256 francs, and the House must also take into the account the alienation from England which the loss of this money produced on the French mind. He found 996 by a paper which he had got from Washington, that the charge for this item in the United States was 384,000 dollars—a charge which was still further increased by the destruction of provisions and stock. The question then was, whether the House should advise Her Majesty to continue this policy, and whether it would not be better to ascertain beforehand whether this policy was satisfactory to the nation. There were so many points connected with the consideration of the Estimates, that he thought it but reasonable that an inquiry should take place; but the right hon. Baronet proposed to give the House only half an inquiry. The right hon. Gentleman would not allow an inquiry into the departments of the Customs and Excise, but only into the estimates connected with the Navy, the Army, and the Ordnance. The expense of managing the Customs was 1,800,000l., and yet, though 700 articles on which duties were formerly levied were now passed without any trouble, he was still to learn that there was one custom-house officer appointed less than be-fore. A reduction to the extent of 57,000l. had been made in the establishment of the Excise; and he thought that Government ought to order this inquiry on their own account, even if they should be obliged to go on with their present rate of taxation. He must say that the House ought not to be prevented from examining the whole of the expenditure of the country; and some inquiry should be made whether the mode of taxation might not be improved. He was aware that there was a great difference of opinion in that House whether there should be direct or indirect taxation; but it was important that they should see what taxes could be raised with the least charge and burden to the people, and what could be brought with the least expense into the Exchequer. For the last eighteen or nineteen years there had been no Committee on this subject. The Committee which sat in 1828 was "burked"—they were a whole year in collecting information, and yet no proper inquiry had taken place. Sir H. Parnell was chairman of that Committee, and Lord Althorp and other Gentlemen willing to work were members of it; and if that Committee had been allowed to proceed, important changes would have taken place, not only in the mode of collecting the revenue, but in the expenditure. Lord Hardinge was on that Committee, and he must say that his arrangements in the War Office were highly 997 creditable to him. He did not mean to say that Lord Hardinge's arrangements were brought about by any recommendations made by the Committee; but Lord Hardiage saw well what the opinion and feeling of the Committee was, and he applied himself to remedy the abuses and evils which prevailed in his department. He maintained, therefore, that when there was a difficulty in collecting money and adding to the taxes, it was not fair to ask the House to consider that question without satisfying the country that everything had been done that could be done. There was another point which he wished to notice before he sat down. He thought he had heard the right hon. Gentleman say that this was to be a Secret Committee. He did not like Secret Committees, and he would therefore submit for the reconsideration of Her Majesty's Government, whether a Secret Committee would be satisfactory to the people of this country, and whether it would produce a conviction on their minds that everything that might have been done had been done? No man, however, was more unwilling to incommode the public departments than himself, and therefore he should not oppose the Motion for going into a Committee of Supply, the only condition which he should require of the right hon. Baronet being, that he should not take too much; now and then, if more were were wanted, he might come again. In the meantime, the Committee might go on with the inquiry proposed by the Government.
§ MR. EWARTwas convinced of the necessity of sooner or later taking into consideration the whole question of the taxation of the country. His hon. Friend had truly stated that, in consequence of the reductions made by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, the cost of collecting the Excise had diminished 50,000l. or 60,000l., while no corresponding diminution had taken place in the Customs. He saw no reason why a similar reduction should not be effected. He was anxious, for one reason, that some such Committee as that which had been recommended by his hon. Friend should be appointed. Some important reports connected with the Excise had never been submitted to the House, and among them was a report which had been prepared by the late Lord Congleton. The whole of those reports ought to be taken into consideration, and that could only be done by a Committee of that House on the subject of general 998 taxation. He was sure that the people of this country felt that it ought to be considered whether many of those taxes which were collected by means of the Customs and Excise, might not be levied upon the realised property of the country. With regard to the speech made by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) on Friday night, he must say that he thought its tone anything but pacific. Even if the noble Lord was convinced of the necessity of an increase in our naval, military, or ordnance establishments, the noble Lord should not have put that proposal in the foreground of his speech, but as an appendix to it. For his own part, he was most anxious that peaceful relations with France should be maintained, and he should be happy to see the duties taken off French wines, in order to extend our commercial intercourse with that country.
§ MR. S. CRAWFORDexpressed his astonishment that the proposal made on Friday night should proceed from a Government professing to act on the principles of retrenchment, economy, and reform. He had hoped that the noble Lord would not have set an example of extravagance. He had expected that our expenditure would have been reduced, as he did not think that we were ever in a condition when there was less necessity to take warlike precautions. He should feel it his duty to give every opposition in his power to the proposition now made for incressing our expenditure and taxation.
§ CAPTAIN HARRIScould not allow the House to go into Committee without protesting even at that stage against the proposition to appoint a Secret and Select Committee on the Navy, Army, and Ordnance expenditure. He thought that they were bound to proceed in this matter in the usual manner; and he must say it appeared to him very much as if there had been a compromise between the Government and the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume). He would venture to say, that if it had not been for the Motion of which that hon. Gentleman gave notice on Friday, they would not have heard of the appointment of any Committee that night. Why should the questions arising out of the expenditure of the Army and Navy not be brought before the whole House? When the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) brought in the income-tax, the estimates were laid before the House in the usual manner; and why should not the same course be taken by the Govern- 999 ment now? The appointment of this Committee threw an air of mystery over the matter which could not but awaken suspicion and dissatisfaction in the country.
§ MR. HUMEcould only say that he had had no communication by writing, word, or letter on the subject with any one person connected with the Government; and it was not fair on the part of the hon. Gentleman to throw out insinuations of the kind just uttered by him, unless he had good grounds for doing so.