HC Deb 11 August 1848 vol 101 cc93-100
MR. PARKER

moved the first of these estimates, which was for 40,923l. to complete the sums necessary to defray the expenses of works and repairs to public buildings, furniture for various public departments, the maintenance and repair of royal palaces and gardens, formerly charged on the civil list.

MR. VERNON SMITH

said, considerable sums had already been voted on account, and the remainder was so small that the House was hardly in a position to make any reduction. Since the original estimates were presented, however, a considerable reduction had been effected by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and the whole must come under review next Session. Generally speaking, the result of the inquiry by the Committee over which he had the honour to preside was, that in all the public departments there was wanting a proper financial check upon the expenditure. Where or whence that check could be obtained it was difficult to say; but he trusted that in the recess the subject would occupy the deliberate attention of the Government. That reductions could be effected in the miscellaneous expenditure was proved by the fact that since these estimates had been presented, they had been reduced very nearly 250,000l There was a want of supervision on the part of the Treasury before the estimates were produced; but he must say, as at present constituted, the Treasury had a great deal too much to do. A large part of the expenditure, too, was practically exempt from Parliamentary control. This was a subject requiring consideration. Another subject also requiring consideration was the amount of public salaries. There had been an indisposition on the part of the Committee to deal with individual salaries, considering that regard should be had to them as a whole. He hoped to hear from the Under Secretary of the Colonies that a great deal of the expenses of the colonies might be borne by themselves, and that less might conse- quently devolve upon the mother country. He hoped to hear likewise from his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer what portion of the recommendations of the Committee on the Miscellaneous Estimates would be adopted by Her Majesty's Government in future Sessions? In what department would they make revisions? And what portions of the recommendations of the Committee, if any, would be rejected?

MR. OSBORNE

said, he always thought that when a Minister of the Crown wanted a vote for the miscellaneous estimates, he came down to that House and made a statement. They really never stood more in need of explanation; for the report before them, whoever drew it up, was most unsatisfactory. After setting forth the salaries of the Ministers and high officers of State, it recommended merely that the salaries of a few clerks should be reduced; and upon the subject of Ireland, one of the recommendations was, that Queen's plates should be abolished. So much for the report; as to the item under consideration, it was the most disgraceful estimate that was ever brought before the House. They found in it Windsor Castle, the Horse Guards, and the Hackney-coach office in Essex-street, Strand, all mixed up in most inextricable confusion. There was one item in it, too, regarding which he wanted some explanation. They ought to know what was meant by the museum of economic geology. He wanted more details. Any gentleman would be ashamed to have such an estimate regarding his own private establishment presented to him. He said it was a fraudulent estimate; and when they came to the item of the palm-house, at Kew, he would prove it. He hoped the House would not pass the estimate in its present shape; and he trusted that some Minister of the Crown would tell the Committee that at least for the future they should have the estimates presented in a different way.

MR. HENRY DRUMMOND

would not follow the hon. Gentleman's example in "badgering Her Majesty's Ministers;" but, in duty to his constituents, he should offer a few observations. He was called upon to vote upon a document on which it was impossible for him to form an opinion; he not having the means of forming an opinion upon any single item on the paper. He would just draw attention to one item, in which two matters most incongruous were placed together, and which had struck him only that morning. It was this, "oil and gas lights for the Houses of Parliament, and St. Martin's public baths and washhouses." It was all carried out in one sum. The hon. Member also objected to many items of the estimates, that they concerned the private expenses of the Royal Family. He knew there was no one so ill served, and no one so grossly cheated with things which they were pledged to pay for, as the Crown. Some years ago he had been at Windsor, and he there saw a stable which had been built for Her Majesty, and which was not larger than many similar buildings belonging to noblemen. He inquired the cost, and was told that it was 70,000l. He believed any one would have paid dearly for them at half the money.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

, with regard to the observations of the hon. and gallant Member for Middlesex, must say, that in his experience of Parliament, which was somewhat longer than that of the hon. and gallant Officer, he had never heard of a Minister or a Chancellor of the Exchequer coming down to that House and making a statement on the miscellaneous estimates. There were no less than 113 different items in the estimate he held in his hand; and it would be impossible to make any general statement with regard to them. As to the remark of the hon. Member for West Surrey, there were items still more dissimilar in character than those he had mentioned to be found classed together. But had the hon. Gentleman exercised a little of that common sense for which his speeches were generally distinguished, he would have seen that they were by no means so incongruous as at first sight might be imagined. As to the report of the Committee of which his right hon. Friend behind him (Mr. V. Smith) had been Chairman, he thought it of considerable value. But he candidly admitted that out of the mass of matter presented to them for consideration, it would have been impossible for them to have made a perfect proposition. Still it was quite clear that a great reduction of expenditure might be made by the Executive Government. And he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had said, when moving the appointment of the Committee, that that appointment would not relieve the Government from their responsibility. With regard to the checks that should be exercised by the Treasury, he observed that the miscellaneous esti- mates were not presented in detail to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) before they were first presented to the Committee. When they came before him he pared them down, and he thought he might have credit for the pretty vigilant control which he had exercised; and almost the first thing he had attended to was the sums charged upon the Consolidated Fund. But the pressure of Irish affairs, and the business of Ministers in that House, had so occupied their attention, as nearly to prevent them attending to anything else. With regard to any particular items on which special information should he required, he thought it better and more satisfactory that they should be dealt with separately, than alluded to in any general statement. That was the mode in which the miscellaneous estimates had been hitherto always treated, and it was the only way in which they could be properly dealt with. And he, and the Under Secretary to the Treasury would be, he trusted, found prepared to give the utmost satisfaction on each item as it should be brought forward.

DR. BOWRING

said, he wished, as a Member of the Committee, to explain that there was no part of the estimates in which it was possible for the Committee to have entered into details. Under each head there were ten or twenty different topics that ought to be inquired into. There were in all, he believed, 116 special subjects referred to the Committee; and of these there were sixty or seventy that would each have required all the time that the Committee had been able to devote to their whole task. The inquiry had served to convince him the more strongly of the truth of Lord Congleton's remark, that until Parliament were able to control the whole amount of the public expenditure, and got possession of the whole of the public receipts, financial reform on a grand scale could not possibly be effected. Under the circumstances the Committee could not possibly have produced a satisfactory report. In the item before the House, for instance, how were they to know how much of the vote should he given for Buckingham Palace, and how much for Windsor or other royal residences? If they could have visited the localities, and looked into the contracts, they would have made their report more satisfactory to themselves and to the House. They were thus necessarily compelled to leave the details in the hands of the Executive. The persons who came he-fore all such Committees were invariably the officials who were desirous of getting the full amount of their estimates. The details were thus thrown upon the Treasury, which was overwhelmed with work, and unable to devote the necessary attention to them. The right hon. Baronet had admitted that evening, that for the last two years the Treasury had been absolutely broken down with business that poured upon it from Ireland. Another great evil was the absence of any central accountancy. There were no books existing to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer could refer, in which he would find the whole receipts and expenditure of his department set forth, as a banker or merchant would have for his private business. Parliament ought to have before it the whole receipts of the year in every department, including the expenses of collection and the amount of fees received in the courts of law and elsewhere. Such a system ought to be introduced, and it should be a rule that none of the receipts could he applied to any purpose whatever without the previous sanction of Parliament being obtained. While making these remarks, he begged to say that he should be unworthy of a seat in that House, unless he bore testimony to the great kindness and attention shown by his right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Committee throughout the inquiry, and to the willingness with which he had listened to every suggestion that had been thrown out by the other Members. But still there was no denying hut that the report, as regarded its practical results, was most unsatisfactory. It was so, however, not from any fault of the Committee, or from any failure or inattention on the part of the Chairman, but from the impossibility of going into the details. On some of the subjects that had been referred to them, separate Committees had been appointed; and on others, more especially on the whole question of the Exchequer, he hoped that a full investigation would be instituted. However unsatisfactory the report of the present Committee might he, there were, at all events, some important improvements suggested in it which he hoped would not be lost sight of.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

did not think that it would be a convenient course, with respect to the miscellaneous estimates, to follow the example of his hon. Friend the Secretary for the Admiralty, as regarded the Navy Estimates, as the former involved so much matter of detail, so that it would be better to give every explanation that might be required upon each particular item. It was very proper, however, with regard to the Admiralty, as the expenditure in that department affected a great branch of the public service. If, however, they attempted to go through an introductory explanation of the various items of the miscellaneous estimates, it would involve considerable delay as the heads of several departments, as well as his hon. Friend the Secretary for the Treasury, would have to enter into explanations. The hon. Gentleman had complained that a number of votes was placed on the Consolidated Fund which ought to have been inserted in the estimates. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had already stated that during the vacation he would consider the votes which should be placed on the estimates, and the charges which should remain on the Consolidated Fund. He thought that it would be unadvisable that they should at present do more than proceed to consider the different items in the estimates, instead of calling for general explanations from each department. The hon. Gentleman had said that each vote should be more fully considered; but at this period of the Session, with the number of Bills which they had before them, as well as other business which hon. Members brought forward, he did not conceive that there would be time to carry any measure if in every instance they were to stop for consideration. With respect to salaries, in 1831 a Committee sat on this subject, and he thought that they had settled the matter in a satisfactory manner.

MR. BANKES

said, that the House was not to blame that there was a delay in voting the estimates, for the Government had taken their own course as to the time of bringing them forward. He should dismiss all complaints as to the delay created by objections, as if the estimates had been brought forward in the month of February instead of the month of August. Among other charges, he found one for the Pavilion at Brighton; but every one knew that it was no longer in a condition for the residence of the Royal Family; and certainly, from what passed some time ago they ought to have reason to believe that that property would be made a matter of revenue instead of expense. Then, again, the charge for providing temporary accom- modation for the Houses of Parliament appeared to be most enormous. He found that one of the charges was "for the probable expense that will be incurred for taking up haircloth, mats, &c, and cleaning dirt from under the House, which will be required from time to time to make good what is worn out, 1,150l.;" and this, with the hire of chandeliers for the temporary residence of the Speaker, amounted to 1,410l. Then, again, the Government were taking into their occupation large houses in the neighbourhood of the Houses of Parliament. Such was the case with Gwydyr House, and several other mansions formerly occupied by noblemen. No adequate advantage to the public was derived from the occupation of such places. The whole matter involved a series of expenditure which might be checked without the slightest injury to the public service.

VISCOUNT MORPETH

agreed in the report of the Select Committee, that all the particular buildings which were the subject of this vote should be enumerated, and that they should put down the specific sum allotted to each of the Royal Palaces, so that the House might know what sums were expended for the comfort and accommodation of Her Majesty, and what for the innocent recreation and enjoyment of Her subjects in those places which were thrown open to the public. With respect to the Pavilion at Brighton, it was not intended to expend upon that building any more than was necessary to keep it tight, and to keep the rain out. It was now cleared of all its furniture, and the Office of Woods and Forests had called for and obtained a report upon the best mode of disposing of the site. It appeared that there was some difficulty in giving a proper title, which might render the intervention of Parliament necessary. An undertaking was on foot to repair the very interesting and beautiful ruin of Lanercost Abbey, in Cumberland, with a view of preserving from ultimate ruin and decay this, among other interesting specimens of antiquity in the possession of the Crown. A small sum was therefore voted in aid for the repair of Lanercost Abbey; and it was intended, also, to vote a small sum for Carisbrooke Castle and Caernarvon Castle. With reference to the number of buildings engaged for the accommodation of the different offices and commissions, for which rent was paid, it did amount to a great sum, because the increasing business of the country required an additional number of buildings devoted to these purposes. It was thought necessary that these offices and houses should be in the vicinity of the Houses of Parliament; and the houses in that neighbourhood, as they all knew, fetched a much greater rent than in the remoter parts of the town. A large sum was annually demanded for the expenses of these offices and commissions, and he sometimes felt that the vacant space of ground near the Foreign Office would be well devoted to an edifice capable of accommodating in a simple and substantial manner these various offices and commissions. In the present state of the finances, however, it would not perhaps be advisable to incur the expense of such a building now, whatever the ultimate saving of such an edifice would be. It was not, therefore, thought right to propose a large sum for any building not absolutely required; and it was considered better for the present to go on paying rent for the houses required for offices and commissions.

SIR R. H. INGLIS

thought it very desirable that the large and at present unsightly area on the south side of Downing-street should be appropriated for the erection of a plain, solid, substantial building, for all the commissions appointed, so that it should not be necessary to have recourse to the occupation of houses in George-street, or elsewhere, for them. There ought also to be a building more worthy of the important business transacted in the Foreign and Colonial Offices; it was to be hoped it was not generally known that the Foreign Office of England consisted of five separate private dwelling-houses, in such a ruinous state that the documents of the department had to be removed a floor lower because the weight of them would hazard the stability of the building.

Vote agreed to.

Other votes agreed to. House resumed. Committee to sit again.

House adjourned at Two o'clock.