§ House in a Committee of Supply.
§ COLONEL ANSONsaid, that in moving the Ordnance Estimates for the service of the ensuing year, he wished it had been in his power to propose estimates more in accordance, with the views of the hon. Gen- 981 tleman the Member for Coventry, than those before the House; but he hoped that that hon. Member would not give an unwilling assent to them, provided he could show that they were both necessary and unavoidable. He was a strong advocate for economy; and however blameable it might be at any time to disregard that principle, it would be peculiarly so at the present moment, when there were so many demands upon the country. He believed, however, that there was as much economy in the application of means as in providing them. On a former occasion, the hon. Member for Montrose had said, that he would allow these estimates to pass without objection; he taking it as a matter of course that they must follow the Navy and Army Estimates; and that he would content himself with entering a protest against them: he would, however, assure the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams), who represented the hon. Member for Montrose, that he had no wish to avail himself of that forbearance; but that if any hon. Member objected to any one of the items, he hoped to be able satisfactorily to prove, that these estimates had not been prepared without due consideration and every regard to economy, and the efficiency of the service. The gross estimate for the ensuing year for the ordnance service, was 2,679,157l.; for 1846–7, it was 2,543,569l.—the increase, therefore, was 135,588l. It would be seen, on reference to the notes in the abstract of the votes, that with regard to three items a considerable reduction had been made last year, in order to have a better arrangement, by only voting for the service of the year a sum of money actually to be paid within the year. The reduction so made, amounted to 67,299l.; and he thought he had a right to deduct that sum from the apparent increase over the last year, and that would leave only 68,289l. as the actual increase. The first vote he should ask from the House was for the pay, allowances, and contingencies of the ordnance military corps. That vote was 617,239l. For 1846–7, it was 575,675l.; being an increase of 41,564l. Under that head were three services—the engineers, the sappers and miners, and the corps of royal artillery. Upon the first of these, there appeared to be an increase of 5,928l. That did not arise from any increase in the establishment, but from the additional employment of the engineer officers; and it was unnecessary for him to say, that when those officers were employed or called upon 982 to undertake public duties, their efficiency was such that he believed, notwithstanding the expense, the public were fully compensated by the great utility of their service, and the knowledge and experience they displayed in it. It being a matter of notoriety, that whether in peace or in war the corps of engineers were pre-eminent for all those qualities which could be applied to useful purposes, he was confident that there was no Member of that House, nor any person out of it, who would grudge them the remuneration which was due to their merits. He might say as much for the sappers and miners; or, perhaps, more. This body was composed of most intelligent men, who applied themselves most assiduously to the discharge of their duties, and were equal to any service which they might be called upon to perform. There was only a trifling increase in the present estimate under this head. The sum required for the artillery exceeded that voted last year by between 30,000l. and 40,000l. The increase had been caused in this way: his noble Friend the Master General of the Ordnance thought it advisable that the number of the artillery force should be increased; and the Government, acting on his recommendation, had not hesitated to sanction the addition of 1,200 men for that purpose. The arrangement was now in progress. The recruiting was going on, and he was happy to state that no difficulty was experienced in getting men fit for the service; on the contrary, recruits of a better description were being raised than had ever before entered the service. In order to carry out the arrangement as economically as possible, it had been determined that the increase in the number of men should be unaccompanied by any increase in the number of officers. The number of men provided for by the vote of last year, was 8,222; that to be provided for this year, was 9,432. It was not probable that this number of men for the artillery would be deemed to bear an extravagant proportion to the whole military force of the country. Indeed, taking into consideration the various duties which the artillery corps were called upon to perform at home, as well as in our numerous and extensive colonies, it was a matter of astonishment that so small a body was able to meet the exigencies of the service. Still they had done so, and, it would be admitted, most efficiently. It must be borne in mind, that there was no prospect of the services of this corps being diminished in severity. The Government 983 had found it necessary to direct their attention to the improvement of our home defences, by adding to the efficiency of our internal and seaport fortifications. He trusted that no circumstances would arise to make manifest the necessity of having recourse to these measures; but, nevertheless, as the increase of fortifications had been determined on, there must be a corresponding augmentation in the number of men to man them. If, as he hoped, no occasion should arise to test the wisdom of the measure, with reference to the circumstance at which he had merely glanced, the increase in the number of the artillery corps would, nevertheless, be productive of advantage, by the facilities it would afford of extending the system of reliefs to foreign stations, which was essential to the efficiency of the service. The second vote was for commissariat and barrack supplies for the land forces, and great coats and clothing for the army. The sum required under this head, was 370,464l.; that voted last year, was 340,881l., making an increase this year of 29,483l. This increase was susceptible of easy explanation. It was attributable to the increased charge for commissariat supplies, and also to the great advance which had taken place in the price of forage for cavalry horses. The price of rations was 3d. a head more in Ireland, and 1½d. more in England, than it was last year. The excess of charge on the commissariat supplies, as compared with last year, amounted to 33,652l., and on barrack furniture, 2,000l., making a total excess of 35,652l. Under the head of great coats and colonial clothing, a considerable diminution of charge appeared in the present estimates; amounting to no less than 25,142l., as compared with the charge for that item last year. Deducting that decrease from the sum previously mentioned, namely, 35,652l., an actual increase remained of 10,507l. But one-twelfth of the sum required for commissariat supplies not having been voted last year, an excess was occasioned this year of 18,976l., which caused a total increase on the estimate for 1847–8 of 29,483l. In point of fact, however, had it not been for the unavoidable excess this year of 33,652l. for commissariat supplies, occasioned by the extraordinary rise in the price of provisions, there would have been a considerable diminution in this vote. There was also an increase in this vote of 7,000l. for increased issue of fuel to the troops, which had been last year the subject of 984 some remarks in that House; and it would also be seen that there was a larger sum required by 4,150l. for the actual quantity of coals, &c. for barracks in Great Britain and Ireland, arising from the increase of price in that article beyond that of last year. The third vote was 96,447l. for salaries in the ordnance offices in the Tower and Pall Mall. It was unnecessary to trouble the Committee with many observations upon this vote. Objections had sometimes been made to the establishments, on the ground of their being more extensive than was requisite; but, speaking from his own experience, he could say that the objection was not well founded. The clerks employed in the offices were most efficient, and devoted the whole of their time to the service of the public. There was a small increase in this vote, amounting to 1,544l., which was accounted for chiefly by the introduction into the Tower of the metropolitan police force, to supersede the old system of watching. Any person who was acquainted with that locality, must be aware that the alteration which had been made in this respect was a considerable improvement. Vote 4 was 228,130l. for the establishments at home and abroad. There was an actual decrease on this vote, as compared with last year, of 2,035l.; but to show this, it was necessary to take into account 7,129l. for one-fourth of the ordnance salaries at foreign stations not voted last year, which caused an apparent increase in the total vote for 1847–8 of 5,105l. The sum called for in Vote 5 was 137,852l. for the wages of artificers and labourers employed at the several establishments in the United Kingdom and colonies. The sum required under this head last year was 125,392l., which was less than the present vote by 12,460l. The augmentation this year was caused by the increased number of artificers employed at Woolwich on naval and other equipments, and likewise by an increased expenditure at the Cape of Good Hope, arising out of the Caffre war. The increase which had taken place in other branches of the public service necessarily occasioned an increase in this department. It had been found necessary to augment the numerical strength of the laboratory and the carriage department at Woolwich. This department had been reduced too low before, and under the peculiar circumstance of the time, it was absolutely necessary to get up arrears. Vote 6 was for ordnance stores. The sum required for this item last year was 390,184l.; that for this 985 year was 368,712l., showing a decrease of 21,472l. It might appear contradictory of the observations which he had made with reference to the last vote, that a smaller sum was required for ordnance stores this year, than was called for last year. The fact, however, was, that very large sums had been voted of late years for ordnance stores. In 1847 no less than 225,493l. was appropriated to that purpose. He believed that those votes were necessary, but still the ample provision made for the public service under this head, in former years, gave the Government an opportunity of calling for a much smaller amount on the present occasion; and that circumstance explained the diminution in the charge for stores in the present estimate. The vote referred to a most important branch of the service. Nobody could suppose that the sum taken for the supply of small arms, namely, 120,000l., was larger than was required, on account of the great change which had taken place in their structure. It was satisfactory to know that, with the exception of two or three regiments coming from abroad, the Army was now supplied with arms constructed on the new principle. A gradually increasing supply of arms would be kept up every year, but the stock would not be permitted to accumulate to the extent which was apparent at the close of the late war, when there were 700,000 or 800,000 muskets in store. For the supply of iron ordnance, shot, and shells, for land and sea service, the sum of 57,431l. was required, being 7,431l. more than was voted last year. Considerable changes were always taking place, as the hon. and gallant Admiral opposite knew, in the construction of ship guns. The authorities on this point never seem to have been agreed as to the description of guns which ought to be supplied to the Navy. He hoped that the present Board of Admiralty would take this into their serious consideration, and only sanction those alterations which were manifest improvements; and by acting upon this principle, the country would be saved a large, and, in some instances, perfectly useless expenditure of money. The next vote was No. 7, 632,765l. for works, buildings, and repairs; the sum required under this head last year was 611,986l., showing an increase in the present estimate of 620,779l. The circumstances of the time had imposed upon the Government the necessity of considering the propriety of improving the defences and fortifications of the country. It must 986 be apparent that the substitution of steam for sailing vessels in the marine of foreign countries had placed England in a different position from that in which she formerly stood; and it was necessary we should be prepared to meet any emergency which might arise. The Government, being deeply impressed with the importance of these considerations, had exercised a wise discretion in the way in which they had appropriated the sum voted for the estimate at which he had now arrived. Formerly, it was the practice to expend large sums in colonial works; at present the money voted was to be principally expended on works at home. He would enumerate some of the items which were comprised in the present estimate: Purchase of land for defences for the dockyard at Pembroke, 20,000l.; improvement of fortifications at Plymouth harbour, 9,805l.; battery at Picklecombe Point, 9,000l.; improvement of fortifications at Guernsey, Alderney, and Sark, 8,909l.; Liverpool new battery, and site for new north battery, 4,000l.; fortifications at Portsmouth, 11,638l.; fortifications at Sheerness, 14,217l.; about 5,000l. for Bermuda, a most important position for the protection of our commerce, and as a naval station; 6,000l. for rebuilding the sea wall at Demerara; 20,000l. for works at Gibraltar; 8,700l. for a new hospital at Grenada, which might appear a large sum, but was, in fact, the general hospital for the islands in those seas; 12,000l. for the Ionian Islands; 12,000l. for improving the fortifications at Malta; 5,000l. for the Mauritius, also one of our most important colonial possessions; and 9,000l. for completing the citadel at Halifax. A considerable sum had also been taken for barracks—30,000l. for Preston, and 10,000l. for a new barrack at Sheffield, which was most urgently required; and when they considered the demands that had been made upon the Government to improve the comforts and conveniences of barracks generally, and which had been attended to and followed out wherever the want was most apparent, he trusted the House would not disapprove of the vote which was now submitted to them. He must also mention the sum of 40,000l. for the conversion of buildings to be used solely for the reception of soldiers convicted of military offences; and 5,000l. for washing places in the barracks. The next vote to which he came was 58,986l. for the expense of the scientific branch of the surveying department, being a 987 decrease of 2,000l. from the vote of last year. The question of the surveys of Ireland and Scotland had often been mooted in the House, and complaints were made from both countries. From Scotland the complaint was, that the whole amount voted for the survey was not expended there. This was true. Out of the 10,000 voted for Scotland, on an average not more than 3,000l. had been appropriated. But the money was not spent in any other way; it was returned into the Treasury and was still available. There were good reasons why it had not been used; the fact was, the whole strength of the survey establishment was required in Ireland, it being deemed most necessary to carry out and complete the survey of that country; thus all their strength had been directed to Ireland instead of Scotland. The scale of the map of Ireland had given rise to much discussion; it had been proposed to give them a 1-inch map as well as the 6-inch one, which was now nearly completed. The smaller scale would be more convenient; but there was no doubt the larger one was superior in the degree of information it afforded. The opinions of scientific societies had been taken, and were decidedly in favour of the large map; but whether it should be left to the trade to reduce the maps to the scale of three, two, or one inch, according to convenience, or that the Government should undertake it, had only lately been decided in favour of the former course; and considering the large expense of the latter map, taking it upon themselves—namely, 60,000l. at the lowest probable estimate—the House would probably concur in the propriety of their decision. In the vote for the scientific branch were included the expenses of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, in which there was no increase over last year. The next vote was for the non-effective services, military and civil, 168,532l., showing an increase under this head of 48,073l. in the present year. The civil non-effective service had exhibited a large diminution during the last ten years; but it had been accompanied by a corresponding addition to the military branch. He believed he had now stated all the estimates in the order in which they had been presented to the House. The increase in some of the items arose from unavoidable circumstances, such as the high price of provisions and forage. He knew that the expenses of this department had always excited observation; the 988 total now was 2,679,127l., while ten years ago it was 1,500,000l. He thought it right, therefore, that the House should be made acquainted with the different services which had been thrown upon the ordnance department within the last few years. The board itself did not originate these expenses; it was called on to supply services transferred to them from other departments. In 1834, the whole sum demanded was 1,604,000l.; in the present year, it was 1,000,000l. more than that amount. Persons were naturally astonished at this large increase of expense; but it was entirely caused by expenditure thrown upon the board from other departments. Thus, in 1835–36, the commissariat was thrown upon it, involving an expense of 261,367l.; in 1839–40, for works and repairs in the Ionian Islands, 24,000l.; in 1842–43, for colonial barracks in Jamaica, 7,757l., and barracks in Mauritius, 7,000l.; at different periods various new establishments had been placed under the board, with an expense of 130,623l.; in 1844–5, for black servants allowed to civil officers, 2,928l.; in 1843–4, for hire of buildings and barrack accommodation in the colonies, 43,157l. These two items were previously charged to the Treasury. In 1845–6, for clothing, &c., for colonial corps, 19,397l.; pay of military librarians, 892l.; lodging money to regimental officers at home, 3,000l.; an item for great coats for men added to the line and artillery, in 1833–4, for surveys of counties, 15,000l.; for providing buildings for soldiers convicted of military offences,40,000l.; for wash-houses for soldiers in barracks, 5,000l.; for additions to military corps in 1843–4, beyond the number in 1833–4, 171,108l.; the amount expended in fortifications, works, and repairs in the present year, above the sum required for the same purpose in 1833–4, was 393,293l. Taken with these additions, the vote for 1833–4 would amount to 3,026,348l.; for this year, also including the charge for these additional services, the vote was 2,862,484l.; the same services were, therefore, actually less this year than in 1834 by 163,864l. The new stations that had been placed under the board since 1834 were the following: Sydney, Hobart Town, Toronto, Rideau Canal, Carillon, Graham's Town, St. Helena, Honduras, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Pembroke, Birmingham, Weedon, and Fort Garry; these created the before-mentioned item of 130,623l. He wished to make one remark as to the appropria- 989 tions in aid, contained in these estimates. He confessed he would much rather see none; he thought the produce of the sales of Ordnance property, instead of being appropriated to their current expenses, had far better be carried to the credit of the Treasury. He could not see any objection to this course; it would simplify the estimates, and, as the country would get the money, it would come to the same thing. He was sorry to have detained the House so long with details which might appear to many extremely dry; but they could not be uninteresting to those who watched the course of events both at home and abroad. It was essential to look into the details; and it would be readily acknowledged that no branch of the public service embraced more important, as well as essential and interesting duties. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving a Vote of 617,239l. for pay, allowances, and contingencies for 12,392 officers and men of the several Ordnance corps and departments for service at home and abroad; which having been put,
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he should perhaps do better in letting these estimates pass without remark, as the hon. Member for Montrose did last year; they were called on to vote several millions, and during the greater part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement there were only twenty-nine Members in the House. This proved how little interest was taken in the question, and how little encouragement there was for any one to point out what he conceived to be an uncalled-for expenditure. The hon. and gallant Officer had referred to the estimates of former years, and explained the increase by the new services that had been thrown upon the Ordnance Department. In 1834 the estimate was 1,068,000l.; in 1835, 1,151,000l.; in 1840, 1,893,000l. Now, in 1840 England was engaged in the Chinese war, and had the largest naval force afloat she had had in any year since the peace; we had not less than seventeen sail of the line in the Mediterranean, all to be equipped from the Ordnance Department. He now asked the hon. and gallant Gentleman the same question he had put to the Secretary at War—what was the necessity for this great increase? He objected to the increase in the estimates for the artillery. This was, no doubt, an important branch of the service, and one which it was incumbent on them to have always in a most efficient state; but the estimate was much higher 990 this year than it had been during twenty years, and some account should be given of the causes which had led to this change. He thought that difficulties would never cease to present themselves to the House when called upon to assent to the different estimates, if that rule which prevailed in France and in the United States were not adopted in England—if a Committee of Inquiry were not appointed to examine into and report upon every separate item.
§ SIR HOWARD DOUGLASsaid: I rejoice at the increase in the number of artillerymen, but think it very inadequate to the wants of the service. We have increased and improved our coast defences, mounted everywhere an immense number of additional pieces of ordnance, but our establishment of artillery is still utterly insufficient to man them, even with the smallest proportion of well-trained artillerists. Gunnery in another war will not be playing at bowls; and whatever expense we may go to in improving the material of our defences, the country will not be safe unless they are efficiently manned. I shall not name any particular places; but, in reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, who asks an explanation as to the necessity of this increase of artillery, I will just advert to three points of defence—stations with which I am professionally well acquainted, and have had something to do. On one, there is mounted 329 pieces of ordnance; and how many artillerymen does the hon. Member think are there? Why, about half a man per gun! I advert to another, on which there are 175 pieces of ordnance at least, and there the proportion is about the same. I know of a foreign station on which there are 335 pieces of capital powerful ordnance mounted; and there are not half the number of men in that garrison. And then, the wants of the service in this respect in other parts of the world. When the native war commenced in New Zealand—a formidable war, which required absolutely a considerable artillery force, and for want of which we suffered severely—we had not, as I told the House at that time, a single artilleryman, nor a piece of field ordnance of any description in the whole of our colonies in that quarter. I trust that adequate additions may be made to this important branch of the service, without which all our other improvements will prove unavailing.
§ MR. GOULBURNthought, with the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas), that the 991 increase in the artillery estimates had been unavoidable. Last year the Government reviewed the service, and undertook certain improvements, and the additional expense which was now submitted for consideration had been incurred in carrying out and perfecting the suggestions and experiments of the late Government. There was no doubt that the safety of the country had demanded the increase of which the hon. Member complained. He did not think that the gallant Officer would be able to carry out his views with respect to the manning of a more extensive scale of fortifications at home and abroad; to attempt the accomplishment of that which the gallant Officer evidently considered so desirable, would be altogether without the bounds of common prudence. He regretted that his gallant Friend did not think it advisable to resume those naval experiments which the Court of Admiralty, in 1845 and last year, had pursued with such benefit to the service. They could not ensure efficiency without trial of every plan, project, and recommendation appearing at all feasible; and it seemed to him that expense in such a manner was never more satisfactory. His gallant Friend gave great credit to the late Administration for the efforts they had made to amend the system of military imprisonment. Last year, 39,700l. was taken for the express purpose of constructing military prisons. The sum of 40,000l. was now proposed under the same head; and the gallant Officer would, perhaps, inform the House, why there was no evidence of the first sum having been expended in that way in which it had been intended, and why this 40,000l. was again necessary? He (Mr. Goulburn) approved highly of the course which was to be taken in Canada. Last year the fears which prevailed that war might result from the dispute relative to the Oregon territory had required that every precaution should have been taken in providing for the safety of the North American colonies; but, by the good fortune of his noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen), this discussion had been amicably closed, and that expenditure which before it was incumbent on them to advise, could not this year be justified. He certainly regretted that, in respect to one work in Canada — the canal connecting Quebec with the upper provinces—there had been any economy practised. That canal, both in a military and commercial point of view, was a most important work, and its completion should not be neglected 992 or postponed. The barracks at Jamaica should also have been built ere this; it was desirable that the troops in that colony should have that accommodation upon which the preservation of their health depended. He trusted the buildings would be completed without delay, and that no expense would be spared. The barracks at the Tower were publicly of less importance; but the troops required those improvements which had been suggested, and it was the imperative duty of the Government to make every exertion in caring for the comfort and amending the social condition of the soldier.
§ COLONEL ANSONreplied, with reference to the Administration not having thought it advisable to incur any further expenditure in trials and experiments in the Navy, that their objection was founded upon the supposition and belief that the late Government had left nothing in an inefficient state, and that consequently new experiments were not necessary. As to the 39,000l. which had been voted last year for military prisons, he begged to inform the right hon. Gentleman that that sum had been devoted to the object, and that, as the estimate for the works was 100,000l., the 40,000l. which he now proposed to take would still be called for. The canal in Canada had not been deemed an undertaking of such paramount importance, and it had, therefore, for the present, been deferred, while they were engaged in the completion of other works. The sum taken for the barracks at Jamaica, would, he thought, be quite sufficient. Steps would be taken in regard to the barracks at the Tower as soon as possible.
§ DR. BOWRINGexpressed his dissatisfaction with the mode in which the accounts were presented, and hoped that this would be the last occassion on which they would appear in such a form.
§ COLONEL ANSONstated, that those men were divided among 53 stations at home and 34 abroad. The proportion of the artillery to the regular army did not approach one-eighth the proportion which Napoleon approved, and the soldiers in that branch required a longer training than in others.
§ Vote, with several others, agreed to.
§ On a Vote of 58,986l. being proposed for the scientific branch of the Ordnance survey,
993§ MR. SMOLLETTdirected the attention of the House to the fact that grants formerly voted for the ordnance survey in Scotland had not been expended; and he wished to know what guarantee there was that the sum now proposed for that purpose would be expended on the survey in Scotland?
§ COLONEL ANSONobserved, that sums granted for the survey in Scotland had not been expended in that country, because the survey had, since that time, been confined either to England or Ireland. It was not considered right to divide the party engaged in the survey, as such subdivision would only have the effect of lessening the amount of work performed. The hon. Gentleman might rest assured, however, that the sums granted by the House for the survey in Scotland would be expended on that object.
§ MR. SMOLLETTbelieved it would be found, that while the sum voted for Scotland was only 56,000l., a part of that amount had not been actually expended on the Scotch survey, but returned to the Treasury.
§ CAPTAIN PECHELLwished, before this vote was agreed to, to inquire what had been done with respect to the Military Academy at Woolwich. It appeared from The Times newspaper, that a commission had been sitting to investigate the state of the Academy, but he was not aware whether any report had yet been made, or that anything had been done beyond building a wall and iron railing to keep the gentlemen cadets within bounds.
§ COLONEL ANSONstated that no report had yet been made with respect to the Academy. He was quite aware that great interest was felt in this subject; but, at the same time, he would caution hon. Members not to believe all the stories they saw in newspapers. With regard to the particular circumstance mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, of an iron railing being put up, the fact was that it had been thought desirable to have a palisade to prevent people getting in, but it was not meant to prevent the cadets getting out. He had no doubt that any regulations that should be adopted would be found to be worthy of the education for a service than which none was more honourable.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The sum of 168,532l. was voted for non-effective Ordnance services, military and civil, for the year.
§ The Committee having disposed of all 994 the votes for the Ordnance, proceeded to the remaining