HC Deb 05 March 1847 vol 90 cc962-80
MR. JOHN O'CONNELL

a, pursuant to notice, begged to draw the attention of the House to the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land. He was very desirous to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to this subject; but, at the same time, he was anxious to bring it forward with as little inconvenience to the progress of public business as possible. He was well aware the present was not the best opportunity to select for the purpose; but he was induced to bring the subject forward by a circumstance which had occurred on the preceding evening. He alluded to the announcement then made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, with respect to the number of persons employed on public works in Ireland, and which induced him to intrude upon the House for a very short period. The announcement of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have struck the House very much, and to have produced a considerable effect. It appeared from it, that a number of per- sons, so large as 668,000—[An Hon. MEMBER: 700,000]—or as 700,000, for that was the number of persons, which, appeared by the last weekly return, was employed on public works in Ireland. Hitherto, he believed, instead of any blame being attached to the Government, they were entitled to the thanks of every humane person, for endeavouring to provide employment for the people. But the question now was, while this system was to be carried on, whether it would not be better to employ the people in the cultivation of the land, which was neglected to a serious extent in many parts of Ireland. It was not necessary, he conceived, to impress upon the House the importance of this subject. Every hon. Member had seen in the public accounts that anticipations of scarcity were rife in every country in Europe. They were told by the public press that in France the amount of food required was far beyond what was anticipated; and that not only in that country, but in the other countries on the Continent, the scarcity of next autumn was likely to be beyond anything yet conceived by those who considered the subject. At home, they had in the Agricultural Gazette a warning held out to them that wrong and mistaken opinions were entertained as to the amount of corn in the hands of farmers and food merchants; and dependence upon a great quantity in their hands, would prove to be fallacious, and a fatal mistake. Under these circumstances, and considering the slowness of cultivation in Ireland, he thought it imperative that the attention of the House should be called to the matter. He thought it well, however, that the subject should not be broached sooner than at the present moment; for if there was any public notice that a suggestion had been made that the Government should undertake in any way, however indirectly, the business of cultivating the land, it might be expected that private exertions for that purpose would be paralysed where private exertion would otherwise be used. But at the present moment, he thought there was no time to lose in having the subject thoroughly considered. He believed that private exertion was now made to the fullest extent; they had every reasonable hope of seeing it made for the proper cultivation of the land for the next crop. In the Gardener's Chronicle, there appeared an article from the pen of Professor Lindley, which strongly urged the necessity of considering the subject, re- minding them that the month of March was approaching, and that no time was to be lost in taking measures to procure an extensive cultivation throughout the two countries. Whether that would be restricted to merely the green crops, or should extend to wheat, or other such grain, it was not for him to say; but that seed should be supplied to Ireland, and the people set to work in cultivating the land, was the proposition which he deemed it his duty to bring before the House, and to press on the attention of Her Majesty's Government. The grand jury of the county of Longford had passed a resolution on the subject, which he would read to the House:— We call on the Government and the Commissioners to allow the relief committees to employ on the land those now wasting labour and money on the roads, reminding them that the time for such employment will have passed, and our prospects for the next year be left more dreary than at present. He believed it was the intention in various parts of Ireland to follow up this resolution by resolutions from other bodies to the same effect. There was a perfect unanimity amongst all classes, that the cultivation of the land should be taken in hand by Government, otherwise the scarcity of next season would be worse than anything they had yet experienced. He called the attention of the House to a letter written by the rector of Cong, the Rev. Mr. Moore, who stated that the people there say, "We should not fear anything if we had seed." He also called the attention of the House to a communication received from a Catholic clergyman in the county of Roscommon, with reference to the want of seed. In some districts, however, it would not be necessary to put the system which he proposed the Government should adopt in operation. In some, and he believed in many districts, private exertions would be available for the purpose. He could mention one case where that had already occurred, and which he had seen noticed in an Irish paper on the preceding day. He thought it right to mention the name of the individual who had set so laudable an example. He resided in the county of Meath; his name was Brenan, he held the lands of Rahane and Clonsilla, and he had announced that he would give premiums for the best and second best cultivation of every acre of oats that his tenants should undertake. In some parts of Ireland the suggestions which he sought to press on the Ministry and the House would be inapplicable, for the people in distress at Skibbereen were too much reduced by famine to be fitted for labour; but in other parts of the country, where as yet they were only on the road to the frightful state of things that existed in Skibbereen, they had not fallen so low as to be unable to work. Several of those persons were now working on roads, which in the absence of any other occupation was useful as affording the means of living; but it would be desirable if, instead of being engaged in cutting up the roads, they could be sent to cultivate the land, and thus afford them some chance of having a supply of food. He thought that some assurance should be given by the Government that when men were taken off the works to cultivate their holdings, that they should be ensured the possession of the crops. In some parts of Ireland the people made it a pretext for the non-cultivation of their land, that if they did so the landlords would seize upon the whole of the produce, and leave them as poor as ever. He thought that Government could provide for this under the provisions of the Labour-rate Act, so that the tenants could be ensured the enjoyment of their crops. Some hon. Gentlemen might think that his proposition was too large a scheme for the Government, and that it would ensure a much larger expenditure than any yet spoken of. That such a course would be advantageous was the opinion of many well acquainted with Ireland, and that the money now expended would be less thrown away in the cultivation of the soil than in the present mode of expenditure. It had been suggested in another place by a noble Lord, who was entitled to respect, as well from his own character as from his high station, that the tendency of the relief ought to be such as to make Ireland rely on herself for the future. Such observations might induce the House to abstain from giving further aid, for the destitution, he feared, was much greater than was anticipated. The people of Ireland had nothing to look to as a resource, for their whole capital had been destroyed by the failure of the crops. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland had estimated the amount of loss by the calamity at 17,000,000l.; but this was not the only loss, for the seed for the present season had also in a great measure been destroyed, or been consumed and dispersed. To such an extent also had the resources of the people been wasted, that they had parted with the manure for the cultivation of the soil. He would not venture to estimate in money the amount to be added to the 17,000,000l. of loss; but he would ask the House to recollect that all that had been done to meet this was the 10,000,000l. proposed to be given by the Government. To meet so large a gap there was nothing to be depended on in Ireland. If they looked to the landlords, they would find that the employment given by them in ordinary years would not be sufficient to employ any great number of labourers so as to afford sensible relief. He believed also that not one-half of the rents of Ireland had been paid this year; and with such diminished funds would they throw the charge on the landlords to supply the deficiency beyond the ten millions? There had been a great deal of talk in the newspapers respecting an increase in the deposits in the savings banks; but it would be found that the chief part of this had been placed there by persons preparing to emigrate. He must express his heartfelt satisfaction and gratification at the munificent charity which had been displayed in this country for the relief of the destitute people of Ireland; but it was impossible to suppose that private charity could supply the vacuum that existed in the amount that would be required. But when he looked with satisfaction at the private charity which had taken place in England, he could not allude without a feeling of pride to the subscriptions which had been made by the poor emigrant Irish in North America, and which amounted to the large sum of 200,000l. The question, however, was, how was the large deficiency to be supplied? He would suggest a mode by which two or three millions more a year might be spent in Ireland without injury to any one. He alluded to the absentee landowners, who by their present conduct acted as soldiers did who run away from an army while engaged in the face of the enemy. He could not understand why the Government, or the House, who naturally were anxious to provide means for the relief of the destitution with as little burden on the public funds as possible, did not resort to some measure with respect to the absentees. There were five or six millions going out of Ireland every year, the expenditure of which, he thought, could be ensured in that country, if the House passed a strong resolution, calling upon the proprietors of land, at least for the present year, to return to their country and do their duty. He wished to throw out these matters for the consideration of the House and the Government; and he trusted that, before they passed the Bills on the Table, they would see whether they could not embody some of them in these measures. With respect to the state of the absentee property, he would refer the House to a statement which had appeared in the most recent Irish papers:— The Upper Leyney Committee (county Sligo), the Dean of Achonry, chairman, have anticipated the relief Bills. The district contains 97,000 acres, with 30,000 inhabitants, of whom two-thirds are destitute. Five hundred families get soup daily, and 1,000 families meal gratuitously weekly. In all cases of destitutes having land, and employed in cultivating it, an allowance is made of two pounds of meal and two quarts of soup daily, so long as they are at the loss of their wages on the public works, if occupied in sowing the land. Only on the estate of Mrs. Armstrong, of Chaffpool, has seed been provided from the commissariat depôt, and therefore there are active preparations made for cropping. Proprietors worth from 3,000l. to 8,000l. a year have not given a shilling, and it is only the resident proprietors who are doing their duty nobly in other parts of their estates, who have contributed at all. The largest proprietor in the district (an absentee) has, within the year, contributed one farthing in the pound of his rental in the district; and the smallest proprietor (a resident) has given 15s. in the pound. Such a state of things ought not to be allowed to continue. He wished to suggest, in the first place, to the Government that they should furnish seed to such an extent as to enable the tenantry to proceed with the cultivation of the soil; and, secondly, that without changing any of the machinery now in existence for the employment of the people, that they should draw the people off the public works gradually, and put them on the land for the purpose of tillage. They had that night heard of new presentments having been made for public works; now instead of employing the people on them, and breaking up the land for roads, they should put them at once on the land. If the principle laid down in Mr. Labouchere's letter, and on which they had lately legislated, was applied more extensively, it would be attended with the most beneficial results. Under that Act it would be competent for the Government now to act, and employ the people in tillage instead of on the new presentments. The next suggestion which he would make was, that something should be done to make some provision between the landlord and tenant, so as to give some security to the tenants, by telling them that if they cultivated the land, they should have some security that the landlord should not be allowed to come down upon them and take away everything for rent. The next suggestion he would make was, that something should be done for the security of the tenant in the case of improvements. The last suggestion which he should make I was one of great importance, namely, that the landed proprietors should be compelled to go to the place of danger, and be made; to share in the general sufferings of the country, and they thus would have five or six millions more expended in the country, and that without any charge to the State.

MR. LABOUCHERE

Sir, I will say to the hon. Gentleman that I am not at all disposed to express any surprise, much less any censure, that he and other Irish Members should take the occasion, whenever the forms of the House allow it, to bring the subject of the condition of Ireland before the House. That condition, Sir, is so very calamitous, that I am not surprised that those Gentlemen take every opportunity of impressing it on the House and the public. But I trust the hon. Gentleman and the other Irish Members will do me the justice to admit that I have never attempted to underrate the importance of the crisis; and I will say that, in my opinion, if any circumstance was necessary at the present juncture to stimulate the Government or the Legislature to do everything in their power for the benefit of their Irish fellow-countrymen, it would be found in the patient endurance of calamities almost beyond human power to sustain which the suffering people of Ireland have manifested. I make this remark with reference to the general body of the Irish people; but I also refer particularly to the people of Connaught and the west coast of Ireland, where the distress has been almost inconceivably great. Sir, the hon. Gentleman has made to the House certain distinct proposals, adapted as he considers for the amelioration of the present fate of the Irish people. Now, I feel that it is the duty of a Government, when proposals of this kind are made to them, to state distinctly what is their opinion upon those proposals. Doubtful, ambiguous language which may lead to misconceptions of the intention of Government, is not true humanity on such an occasion, but it is most likely to lead to deplorable results. I trust, therefore, that it will not be thought inconsistent with true humanity an the part of the Government, or with an anxious desire to do good to Ireland, that I am every day more convinced that it is not merely not the duty of the Government to do for Ireland that which the hon. Gentleman has pointed out as the proper course for us to pursue, but that it is not possible or practicable if we wished it. Under the circumstances of this peculiar case, the Government and this country have taken an unusual and extraordinary course, that it would have been totally unjustifiable for any Government to have taken under other circumstances. Following in the steps of our predecessors, we have attempted to employ the people of Ireland—a task which is beyond and not belonging to the functions of the Government, and which no Government could carry into effect without an abundance of abuses and many evils arising. For my own part, I beg to say that I entered on that course not blind to the inevitable rise of those abuses and evils, and I ventured to point out what those abuses and evils would be; but, nevertheless, I thought it was best upon the whole to adopt that course for the relief of those miseries of Ireland which I thought it was impossible for any Government of this country, in the nineteenth century, to sit by and see increasing without some attempt at relieving. Sir, I do not regret that we did so. I know now that the attention of the House and of the public has been aroused to the state of Ireland; that if we had allowed pestilence and famine to walk unchecked and without any attempt to impede them, in my opinion there would have been a cry of indignation and horror from one end of the country to the other, condemning the Government for having pursued that course. But circumstances have occurred that have rendered it impracticable to go on with the present system of public works. The first consideration is, that they have grown to such a magnitude as to have become wholly uncontrollable and unmanageable. My noble Friend told you the other night that we were now doing what I believe is unprecedented in the history of the world, employing no fewer than 700,000 persons on public works, controlled and paid by a central body; and here let me stop for a moment to do that justice which has not yet been fully done to a most deserving public body—the Board of Works in Ireland. I believe that nothing but the unwearied diligence, the spirit, energy, and activity of the officers of that board would have enabled them to discharge the duties set before them; they have managed by incessant exertions and the most anxious care to keep the system in good order without any general or manifest abuse; but it has not been possible wholly to accomplish that object. The hon. Member for Kilkenny has adverted to a most momentous subject. We have arrived at a time when labour must be applied to the cultivation of the soil in Ireland, if we do not mean to see the same events as at present occurring next year. I have no hesitation in saying that the employment of this great body of people on the public works is inconsistent with cultivating the soil. Every account from Ireland convinces me that there would have been no possibility of getting the people to apply themselves to the cultivation of the soil if the system of public works were continued. Have we then attempted to do that? Not at all; we have substituted another system for the system of public works, which we believe is more calculated to meet the evils of the present time; and we have asked the House to agree to a system, not of supplying labour, but of supplying food to the great body of the people. The Irish Government are now employed in arranging those complicated measures which are necessary to carry out that altered system. Do I say that the new system is not liable to abuse? I do not. I am satisfied that the Government will find some evils to arise out of their attempt to supply food, as they found some to arise out of their attempt to supply labour to the people. It cannot be otherwise, because it is not within the functions of a Government to supply food any more than employment to its subjects. There will be great abuse, I am convinced; but it is no reason because there will be abuse that we are not to do what we can for the relief of the evils of Ireland; and I believe that from the system last adopted, there will, on the whole, be found to arise the least amount of evil with the greatest amount of benefit. The House may depend upon it we shall do all we can to prevent abuse; and, in doing that, we shall be assisted by the relief commiteee, at the head of which is Sir J. Burgoyne, who with such devotion tendered his services to the Government—we shall do all we can to check abuse; but I should not deal fairly with the House if I said that I expected we shall be able to feed the great mass of the people without abuses, any more than we were able to employ the people without abuses. My excuse is this, that it is not fit for a Christian Government or a Christian Legislature to see their fellow-creatures swept from the land by famine and pestilence without doing what they could to check and control the progress of the calamity. But the hon. Gentleman asks us to cultivate the soil of Ireland by the direct interference of the Government. I will deal frankly with the hon. Gentleman, and tell him that would be impossible. I believe the attempt—for it would be only an attempt—to do it would lead to failure, and would paralyse the energies of Ireland. Indeed, it would be nothing but a failure. I think, therefore, it most fair to him and other Irish Gentlemen to say at once, that I altogether decline, on the part of the Government, to undertake that which is altogether beyond the functions of a Government, and could only lead to mischief. I say the same with respect to the supply of seed. To supply seed to a whole people, is that which no Government can undertake to do. I say that the provision of seed on the part of the Government would cripple private enterprise, and lead to irreparable mischief. I have had remonstrances and letters from all parts of Ireland from seedsmen, in respect to the seeds for green crops, of which they have laid in great stocks; large quantities of seeds of this kind have been accumulated in the principal towns of Ireland to meet the spring demand; and that I regard as a most striking instance of what can be done by individual exertions, as contrasted with what a Government can do in a question of this kind. With regard to the cultivation of the soil, it is impossible to overrate the importance of making every effort for preparing the soil for the crops. I believe that in many parts of Ireland every exertion is made by the landlords in order to encourage their tenants to cultivate and sow the land; but I am sorry to be obliged to agree with the hon. Member for Kilkenny, that there are parts of Ireland where, I fear, that duty will be neglected. I know very well what is the crippled condition of many Irish proprietors just at present; I know that it is unjust to ask them to do that which it is impossible they should do at the present moment; but I hope that both from motives of present interest and of patriotism they will be willing to do that which is in their power for the encouragement of their tenants in this respect. When we consider how much of Ireland is held in small holdings, and how many there are who have lost the whole of their small stock of potatoes, and how incapable they are of obtaining seed, I do hope that every exertion will be made in their favour by the Irish proprietors. I do not, however, rely entirely on that; but I hope that what the Government has already done with the sanction of the House, will produce a very considerable effect. The principle of that measure is, that relief shall no longer be given in wages, but in food; and I hope that the result of it will be, that men who have received that food which is to sustain them, will go either on to their own land, or on to the land of the farmer, and there endeavour, for wages, to earn their future subsistence; and I do assure the House, that it will be the business of the Government to endeavour to ascertain the real circumstances of those who apply to them for relief in food, and to take care, as far as they can, that the population shall not neglect the cultivation of the land for an attendance upon the soup-kitchen. I think it would be most dangerous that the population of Ireland should be encouraged to live in idleness; but I think they will feel they ought to labour when at the public charge they have been receiving food in order to enable them to subsist in the meantime. I will read to the House an extract from a letter which happened to be put into my hands just before I came down, as I think it will illustrate the manner in which checking the public works will operate. Major Fitzgerald, inspecting officer of relief in the county of Clare, says, in his report of the week ending Saturday, February 27, 1847, with respect to the baronies of Upper Tulla and Upper Bunralty:— For the first time I have the pleasure of reporting that this week I have seen tillage in progress in my district. Some of the workmen have left the roads to sow their wheat and oats. I am aiding this salutary movement in every way I can. I have struck off from the relief lists, this week, upwards of 1,200 names, and shall probably get rid of more next week. Two of the committees have complained to me, that, in consequence of the public works, there is a difficulty in getting horses for farm labour. I have requested the engineers to dispense as much as possible with horse labour. Sir, I do not know that I need trespass further on the patience of the House; but the hon. Gentleman reminds me that I have not referred yet to what he said on the subject of absenteeism. I assure him that I am not more in love with absenteeism than he is. There are many absentees, however, some of whom I have the honour of knowing, that most honourably have done their duty; but I will not compare anything that can be done by an absentee with that which it is in the power of a resident Irish landlord to do, for he is able to encourage and support those around him both by his example and his advice. Some absentee landlords, I am bound to say, sadly and shamefully neglect their duty; and I know many instances, like those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, where the resident proprietors have come forward with their time and their money to assist their distressed neighbours, and where they have owners of a very considerable property held in the district who refuse to come forward with anything whatever to relieve the destitute of the place. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I agree with him in thinking that the proper place for an Irish landlord, under the present circumstances of that country, is in Ireland; but I must say, that if a sense of their duty to their dependents and of their public duty to their country does not operate with them to produce that effect, I am afraid that a resolution of this House would have very little efficacy to bring about that result. With respect to the question of landlord and tenant, I have to say that the Government has attended to the subject of the improvement of the relations between landlord and tenant; and though I do not adopt the notions of the hon. Gentleman, I am fully aware that it is a subject of vast importance, and I can assure him that it is one that has not escaped the attention of the Government. Before I sit down I may say that I have very great satisfaction in finding that many proprietors in Ireland are entering into engagements with their tenants for advancing them seed, in order to enable them to cultivate their small holdings, the tenants being bound to give them a lien on the next crop. I think that is an admirable arrangement, and I hope the landlords will adopt it extensively. I think it will not be prudent to touch such a subject by means of a legal enactment, for I am convinced it will be much better to leave it to be arranged between the landlord and tenant; and I certainly hope that the arrangements I have mentioned will be extensively adopted in Ireland. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the subjects to which he has referred have deeply engaged the attention of the Government; and if I do not adopt his suggestions it is because I do not think it would be for the interests of Ireland that the Government should do so, these not being questions in which a Government can profitably interfere.

MR. SHAW

said, that he should have concurred with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. O'Connell), who had introduced the discussion, on the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on the public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land, were it only practicable. He must, however, frankly say that he did not think it was practicable; but that, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) had stated, if the Government made any such attempt, it could only lead to disappointment, and result in failure. The duties of the present board had been sufficiently onerous and complicated in administering the public works of Ireland; but what would these difficulties be, if a board were appointed for the public farming of the entire country? So with regard to seed, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), that to give seed corn on a scale commensurate with the wants of Ireland would be impossible; and to hold out the hope could only raise expectations which could not be realized, and would tend to paralyse individual exertions. Before he sat down, he must advert to a subject which had been urged upon the Government in the early part of the evening, in the shape of not very regular questions—he meant the proposition of the hon. Member for Montrose, and other hon. Members—that the Government should name an early day simultaneously and peremptorily to put a stop to the public works throughout Ireland. Such a step would be fraught with the utmost cruelty and danger. Did those hon. Members consider, that if, as the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had stated that night, there were 700,000 men employed upon those works, that made about three millions of persons depending upon the wages earned at those works for their subsistence; and if that was suddenly stopped, what was to become of that mass of persons? He had lately received a letter from a very active chairman of a relief committee—an extract from which, bearing on the point of that difficulty of transition from the public works to the ordinary occupations of the people, and also as to the increasing distress amongst them, was as follows:— I do not believe there is any labour relief committee in Ireland which has found the smallest difficulty in supplying the farmers with labourers from those they had not room for on the public works. We could certainly have done so here, even where no cottier tenantry exist. Every one who knows the state of things in this country is unable to understand how that enormous surplus labour population is to find employment. Occasional days will not do: a man cannot even half live, which is all they are able to do now, without weekly wages. The distress has greatly increased—the people have used every means to keep afloat; pawned every article they possessed, almost to their clothes. They then went in debt—now all fails them—every saleable article is gone—so is their credit, and this while the public works are going on. Again— Any one who has had practical experience of relief committees, knows the almost insurmountable difficulty of selecting proper objects for recommendation to the public works; but now that the temptation to fraud will be so much greater, that difficulty will be considerably increased, and I believe almost every man, woman, and child in the district will apply for relief—and not consider it a disgrace to exist upon charity. The whole case was indeed truly difficult of solution. It would be ungracious to blame the Government, who, he believed, had done their utmost to meet the emergency. He cordially joined with the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) in acknowledging the munificent liberality of the people of England. He was glad that the hon. Member had referred to the proceedings of a committee in Sligo, presided over by the Dean of Achonry, in which ample justice was done to the exertions of the resident gentry of Ireland, where it was stated—and he was persuaded it was but a fair sample of the country generally—that not less than fifteen shillings in the pound of their incomes had, one way or other, been lately spent in alleviating the sufferings by which they were surrounded. It was true that the Labour-rate Act on which they had been acting, and the Temporary Relief Act that was then substituted for it, had been open to many theoretical objections, and were necessarily exposed to many practical abuses; but it had not been a matter of choice: dire necessity was their justification; and if that was said to be the tyrant's plea, famine had been the tyrant, and it had driven them to the alternative of adopting some such measures to satisfy the exigency of the moment, or of suffering thousands—it might be millions—of the people to perish of want. He could only again say, in conclusion, that he could not in fairness attempt to fix upon the Government the responsibility of tilling or sowing the land in Ireland: he could only hope that the relief committees might be able to stimulate the people to the cultivation of the soil, and to adopt such means as might best help them through the present calamitous crisis.

MR. M. BELLEW

said, that when the Poor Law was passed it would do more than anything else for the improvement of Ireland; and he could not concur in the suggestions of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, believing that his proposals were impracticable, and that if they were practicable they were not desirable. The difficulty of any arrangement between landlord and tenant would be a great obstacle to any such works as were now proposed from being carried on. He was not one who thought that the public works had been altogether unserviceable; and if they were, all were responsible for them, and not the Government alone. The present calamity was like a fire or an inundation; and therefore it was fair to do all in their power to relieve it: this, in his opinion, had been done by the 10,000,000l., and he did hope that, though they did not accede to this suggestion, the quantity of land which would remain untitled would be very small.

MR. FITZGERALD

thought that the people employed should be changed from the public works and turned upon the land. It must be three weeks or a month before the Bills now before the House would become law; and in the interval he asked whether it would not be better to employ the people in tilling the land than in unproductive works? Every one who had heard the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, was convinced that the Government had done their utmost to benefit the people of Ireland; but it would be impossible for the greatest exertions of the landlords to make up for what was lost; and he thought that the Relief Commissioners should have power to select works on the land, and he did not see any difficulty in taking a certain number of hands from the public works and securing the crops for the present year. In a letter, dated the 1st of March, it was stated that the land for ten miles round Limerick, on both sides of the road, was uncultivated; and it was not too late now to supply the deficiency, though it would be if they waited till all the Bills passed. Then, with respect to a supply of seed, he thought that desirable, because the farmers had been living on their seed corn, on the faith that the Government would render assistance. The resident landlords had done all in their power, and more than they could well afford, to relieve the distress. He regretted that the non-resident had not equally assisted, for he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that no sum they could send to Ireland could compensate the Irish tenantry for their non-residence; and he would compel all the landlords to reside during the next six months on their estates, and not leave those who were resident alone to contend with the distress.

LORD J. RUSSELL

I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend; but the argument used by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, for the purpose of inducing Her Majesty's Government to reconsider the proposal of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, induces me to rise, not so much to attempt to argue the question, but to declare what is the opinion and determination of Her Majesty's Government upon this subject. The hon. Gentleman expressed a hope that we should interfere, and should undertake the tillage and sowing of the land. He says that this is the time, and that very soon the opportunity will be lost. At the same time the hon. Gentleman gives us what I should think was a very strong warning against taking such a course, by stating what has been the effect of the determination I some time ago declared, that 50,000l. should be given for seed. I had hoped that the small amount of that sum would obviously only be applied to particular cases; and, as the noble Lord opposite said it would not buy 25,000 quarters of oats, that it would prevent any extravagant hopes being raised. But the hon. Gentleman says, that numbers of farmers have consumed their seed corn, believing that they might obtain seed from the Government. If such were the result of that declaration, what would be the effect if the Government were to say that the tillage and sowing of the land of Ireland should be undertaken by the Government? Would it not put an immediate stop to all the ordinary means of tillage at this moment? Would not every farmer and labourer wait, expecting that the Government would undertake the whole? and the number of 1,100 officers, even if they were multiplied ten times, would be found unable to undertake so gigantic an operation. And what would be the end of our proposing to do so? I think it is therefore necessary that the intention of the Government should be understood. We lament very much that in certain instances, in certain districts, tillage has not proceeded; but I have still a great hope that that tillage will be found much more general than hitherto expected; but the only ground upon which I rest that opinion is the well-understood intention of the Government not to interfere, expecting the landlords, farmers, and labourers, will undertake the tillage and sowing of the land for themselves. I will not now enter into the question of absentees, and other subjects, thinking it better to discuss them when they come more immediately before the House.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, he had no intention of detaining the House; but he felt bound to say, he concurred fully in one sentiment which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary for Ireland, namely, that sufficient justice had not been done to the gentlemen who composed the Board of Works. Really, when the House considered the immense, and complicated, and onerous duties these gentlemen had to perform—when it considered the enormous responsibility connected with the superintendence of more than 700,000 labourers—the tendency to abuse, and, on the whole the quiet and orderly conduct of so large a mass, it was impossible not to feel that the highest praise was due to these gentlemen for their ability and conduct on such an emergency. He was anxious also to state, that he concurred fully in the opinions expressed by the noble Lord who had just sat down, and the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, in respect of the inexpediency of Government undertaking to employ people to till the land in Ireland. He knew there was a strong feeling on this subject in that country; but when the Government came forward and declared their intention of taking a course which might be unpopular in refusing to till the land, because they thought that an opposite course would really aggravate the evils of the country, he, entertaining the same opinion, felt bound to get up and say so, and take his share of the unpopularity of such a statement. He had no doubt, in his own mind, that if Government was to announce an intention of undertaking works of tillage, the effect would be to paralyse and suspend the tillage of the country, instead of promoting it. The right hon. Gentleman had recommended arrangements being made between landlords and tenants, by which the landlord might till the tenant's land for him, and repay himself in harvest. He believed there was a disposition on the part, both of landlords and tenants, in many parts of Ireland, to make such arrangements. He was afraid, however, the lands were untilled to a much greater extent than some hon. Members seemed to imagine. He had himself a great many letters on the sub- ject; but he would not detain the House by reading them. But where tenants would not consent to make arrangements with their landlords, there were great difficulties in the way; and there was also another class of cases which he feared would be found numerous in the west of Ireland, he meant cases in which cottier tenants or small farmers abandoned their land altogether. In none of these cases had the landlord or any parties the power of entering upon the lands so abandoned. The law did not afford the means of doing so by any easy process. Now, he thought something might be done to meet those cases. He knew it was a difficult matter, and he would be sorry to give any advantage as against the poor cottier at a time like the present; but he thought a power should rest somewhere, either in the landlord or in the relief committee, or in the petty sessions, to let the land so abandoned for the next crop, perhaps to the adjoining farmer, as conacre for the tenant; and that after next harvest a certain portion of the crop should be apportioned to him as a payment for the use of the land.

MR. B. ESCOTT

was quite sure, that all those hon. Members who had listened to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, would give him credit for his anxiety to do everything that was in his power to mitigate the distressing evils which at present pressed upon the people of Ireland. He must, however, say that the longer he had been listening to these painful details, the more was he inclined to make up his mind to the conclusion, that, instead of any extraordinary measures of this kind being calculated to confer any real or permanent benefit upon Ireland, they were more likely to do harm than good. He was inclined to believe, from all that he had heard, that the only true measure to which they could trust, was that of giving every facility to the importation of food from all parts of the world. They should also inculcate the absolute necessity of observing the strictest economy upon all classes of the community in the consumption of food. That part of the subject was, he believed, not considered with that care which it deserved. The hon. Member for Kilkenny said, with the utmost apparent sincerity, that they could not economise in Ireland. [Mr. J. O'CONNELL: I said we have nothing to economise.] Yes; but they had something to economise. Did they not know that every bushel of wheat made into wheaten bread might be extended to double the quantity if it were made into a much more wholesome and nutritious article of subsistence? Would not that be economy? Those who had examined this subject, stated that they could make from two bushels of wheat, by economical management, as much and more nutritious bread, than was generally made by the ordinary mode out of three bushels. They would be thus saving at least one-third of the wheat that was at present generally consumed in bread. The House must acknowledge that a saving by this means of one-third of this farinaceous food would be the greatest blessing that could possibly be conferred upon the inhabitants of Ireland. It was one of the most admirable dispensations of Nature, that the most wholesome food from wheat was made by the waste known by the name of wheat-bran when brought into the manufacture of bread. The coarsest of bran with the finest of flour made the best and most wholesome bread that man could consume. When they considered that last Monday wheat was 76s. a quarter in Mark-lane, the necessity for adopting this course was the greater, so that the present scarcity might not be still further aggravated.

Subject at an end.