HC Deb 08 July 1847 vol 94 cc40-4

House in Committee on the Compensation for Damages (Ireland) Bill,

Clause 1—(Grand Jury may postpone traverses and payment),

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, that as this was a very important clause, which, in fact, was the object and principle of the Bill—and as, perhaps, in some cases the postponement of payment to persons entitled to damages under the Labour-rate Act might involve a hardship, he would take the opportunity of calling the attention of the Committee to the amount already chargeable by law upon Irish property, and which Ireland would he called upon to pay next year for works comparatively unproductive, so far at least as any immediate return towards the repayment of that charge during the same year. And he was anxious to make this statement, not only because it was desirable that the House should know the amount so chargeable on landed property in Ireland, but because if the observations he was making should reach grand juries and petty juries, and persons of all classes connected with property in Ireland, he hoped they would see the necessity of exercising the most rigid vigilance and economy—so far as was consistent with justice—in dealing with the claims of parties for compensation under the Labour-rate Act. Probably most hon. Members had seen an article which appeared in the Morning Chronicle two days ago on this subject. It was stated in that article, assuming the expenditure in feeding the people to proceed at its present rate for twelve months—that taking thirty unions, forming a considerable proportion of the whole of Ireland, the expenditure during the year would amount to no less a sum than 3,446,210l., while the valuation of those thirty unions was only 2,163,710l. He (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) hoped that state- ment was overcharged; for he trusted it would not be necessary to continue the present enormous expenditure for any considerable period. But there was enough of truth in it to create very great alarm. A right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Northampton, some time ago had obtained a return on this subject, which he then held in his hand. By a reference to it, and to some other returns on the Table of the House, he had been enabled to make out a calculation, which he was afraid was only too correct. The return of the right hon. Gentleman divided the charges for unproductive works, since the beginning of the last sessions, into several classes, which he would very briefly enumerate:—

Principal. Charge next year.
1. Advances to grand juries under 9th Vic ch. 2, and 9th and 10th Vic. ch. 78 £ 125,841 £ 14,482
2. Ditto, ditto, 1st Vic., ch. 21, 9th Vic., ch. 1, half loan, half grant 390,093 25,070
3. Public Works Labour Rate, 9th and 10th Vic., ch. 107, 5,000,000l.; suppose one moiety remitted, and remainder converted into annuity at 12l. per cent for ten years, as proposed 2,500,000 300,000
4. Relief Commissioners, 10th Vic., ch. 7, to be repaid out of the Poor Rates 900,000 900,000
£ 3,915,943 £ 1,239,552
The next item of expenditure to which he would advert was the poor rate under the Act recently passed. He was aware it was difficult at present to form any accurate calculation; but still, he thought, by looking at the charge for the poor in England, under a system nearly resembling that now established in Ireland, something like a proximate one might be arrived at. England, with a population of 15,906,741—call it sixteen millions—expended in the relief of the poor, in the year 1846, 5,039,703l. Ireland, with a population of 8,175,126—call it eight millions—if you suppose the same expenditure in pro- portion to the population, will have to expend 2,500,000l. Possibly the expense of maintaining a pauper might be less in Ireland than in England; but still he was afraid a larger proportion of the population would have to be supported, and he feared the cost could not be taken at less than 2,500,000l.; that added to the former items would make the charge for the distress, arising from the potato failure, and for the poor, 3,739,552l. Then there was the grand-jury rate for roads, gaols, dispensaries, and other county matters. The grand-jury cess for 1846 amounted to 1,158,198l.: deducting from it the charge for constabulary, now placed on the Consolidated Fund, it might be taken at 1,000,000l., making the amount so far chargeable 4,739,552l. for the year 1848. He had some hesitation in approaching the next item. He could not conceal the surprise with which he had read in one of the recent reports of the Board of Works, that the estimate formed of the amount, certified by the officers of that Board, for damage to land under the Labour-rate Act, was 1,500,000l. He had a very high respect for the Members of the Board of Works; but how it was possible that such a sum as 1,500,000l. could be estimated as the compensation for damage on an expenditure of 5,000,000l., he was quite unable to conjecture. He hoped it was an estimate roughly formed, and drawn from some peculiarly unfavourable data; and that when grand juries and petty juries came to deal with the question of compensation, they would prove that it was a very erroneous calculation. But supposing it to be but one-half, or 750,000l., the total amount chargeable upon land in Ireland next year, if the payment for compensation was not postponed, would be no less than 5,489,552l. And in this calculation he had not taken into account local taxation in towns, turnpike tolls—both of which were in some places extremely heavy. Neither had he taken into account the charges for drainage and other productive works, with regard to which, although it was true that the money so expended would be profitable, yet the profit would not immediately accrue; and, therefore, the charge would be felt for the next year; and he must also remark that the charge was assumed to be equal over the whole country; but of course that was not the case, but, on the contrary, the charge would be heaviest where the district was poorest. He would now trespass upon the Committee for a few minutes while he pointed out the comparison which existed between England and Ireland as regards the charges upon land and the means of meeting them; and first, with respect to the charges. The charges upon land in Ireland, as he had already stated, and not including turnpike tolls or local taxation, could not he estimated for the year 1848 at less than nearly 5,500,000l. In England the poor rate for the year 1846, was 5,039,703l.; the highway rate was about 1,150,000l.; the charge for prisoners, &c, 680,000l., amounting to 6,869,703l. So that the taxation of land in Ireland would bear the proportion of five to six to the taxation of land in England in respect to the same objects. And now with respect to the comparative means of the two countries to meet this charge—-the area of cultivated land in Ireland is stated in the Report of the Poor Inquiry Commission to be 14,600,000 acres; that of England, 34,250,000 acres; the produce of Ireland, 36,000,000l., reduced by the failure of the patato crop last year, to, at most, 20,000,000l.; the produce of England, 150,000,000l.; the valuation of Ireland, 13,204,234l.; of England, 62,254,030l. This was the estimate made before the property tax; the valuation now, as deducible from the income tax is, 85,802,725?. The agricultural labourers in Ireland are stated to be 1,131,715; in England, 1,055,983. Now, he (Mr. Hamilton) thought it quite obvious that if England, with 1,000,000 of agricultural labourers, with 34 millions of acres of cultivated land, with 150 millions in value of produce, and with a valuation of 85,000,000l., feels the burden of 6,800,000l.; Ireland, with 1,100,000 agricultural labourers, with an area of only 14,000,000 of acres, with a produce of 36,000,000l., reduced by the late visitation to 20,000,000l, and with a valuation of only 13,000,000l., must break down under the pressure of 5,500,000l., unless means be taken to increase the productive powers of the land, to add to the wealth of the country, and to establish a better proportion between capital and population. He was quite ready to admit that in the Improvement of Estates Bill, Her Majesty's Government had endeavoured to make provision for this purpose; but he hoped during the recess they would apply themselves to the consideration of other means by which the important defect connected with improving the resources of Ireland might be still further attained.

MR. LABOUCHERE

could not at the present moment enter into a consideration of the general financial condition of Ireland. If hon. Gentlemen were desirous of expressing their opinions upon the subject, they would probably have an opportunity of doing so at the reassembling of the House at Five o'clock. It was of the greatest importance that this Bill should pass immediately into a law; he therefore hoped the hon. Gentleman would allow the Committee to proceed. With respect to the statement to which the hon. Gentleman had alluded, he owned he was as much surprised as the hon. Gentleman himself could be to see such a sum as 1,500,000l. put down as an estimate of the amount of damages to be claimed of the Board of Works for damages in Ireland. He had no doubt every care would be taken to look narrowly into the particulars of the estimated claims, and to prevent this question of compensation for damages being made subservient to private and particular interests. He knew that it was the opinion of the members of the Board of Works that the expense of compensation would be much less than they had themselves first estimated it to be. At the same time, it was impossible to deny that there would be a considerable sum to be expended under this Bill. With regard to the repayment of this expense, he wished not to throw the burden all at once on the counties of Ireland, and had therefore made provision for spreading it over a certain number of years.

MR. M. J. O'CONNELL

hoped it would go forth that full and official accounts of all the claims made for compensation for damages would be laid before the public, so that it would be known who were the parties who made out reasonable claims, and who were the parties who had made out unjust and unreasonable claims. These proceedings would be before the eyes of the public; and which he considered to be a very efficient provision for checking any lavish expenditure of the public money.

Clause agreed to.

Other Clauses agreed to.

House resumed. Report to be received.