§ House in Committee of the whole House on the Customs and Excise Duties Act.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERcommenced by saying, that he now proposed to state the measures which had been under the consideration of Her Majesty's 282 Government, with reference to sugar, molasses, and rum. It seemed, from what passed last night and the night before, that some misapprehension had arisen in the minds of hon. Members as to whether the measures to be proposed would be of a temporary or of a permanent nature. He certainly thought, from the terms in which those measures had been mentioned, that no room was left for misapprehension. In regard to those laws of which Her Majesty's Government had proposed the temporary suspension, namely, the corn and navigation laws, one of them was a measure which had passed only last Session of Parliament by a large majority of that House, and from which, except for a time and under extraordinary circumstances, they ought not to depart; and as to the navigation laws, they, too, were of such a nature, and so much importance was attached by some persons to their maintenance, that, except under a similar pressure of extraordinary circumstances, a Government would not be justified in suddenly proposing to disturb them. In regard to the measures he was now about to lay before the House, hon. Gentlemen who were present at the end of last Session of Parliament, would recollect that he had expressed his intention early this Session to bring forward measures on the subject; and he rose in pursuance of that declaration to propose a permanent alteration in the Customs and Excise Acts, in reference to Sugar and Rum. The Act passed last Session, reducing the protection which the West and East Indian Colonies previously possessed, was a measure calculated to produce the most beneficial effects on the interests of this country; but these colonists had put forward a claim that the restrictions which had been imposed upon the use of their produce in this country should be relaxed also. The general justice of that claim, not precisely as regarded its amount, had been acceded to by Her Majesty's Government, and by the House. It would be remembered that towards the close of last Session, although there had been for many years past a higher duty on colonial rum than on British spirits, he felt himself justified in proposing that the difference should be reduced from 1s. 6d. to 1s. That reduction was accordingly made, and the Government undertook to give the claim which was made of a further reduction their best attention during the recess, and to lay the result of their deliberations 283 before the House early this Session. He formed, must at the same time say, that on every occasion in which he had advocated a reduction of the duty on sugar, he had advocated it, not only with a view to the benefit of the consumer, but with a view also to the increase of the revenue of the country. When a measure of this kind was proposed, therefore, he must not be expected to lose sight of those considerations; and accordingly, in proposing this measure, he had taken both objects into view. No person could be more convinced than he was of the general soundness of the policy of what were called the doctrines of free trade; but at the same time he thought it impossible to carry those doctrines to the extent which some Gentlemen occasionally advocated without injury to the interests of the revenue. His hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) talked last night as if it were the easiest thing in the world to reduce the duties on timber. His hon. Friend must know that those duties produced a revenue of 1,000,000l. per annum; and he had yet to learn how, if that were removed, the deficiency was to be met. He believed that, with the large amount of taxation which was required in this country, it would be impossible to raise it without a considerable amount of indirect taxation; and he believed it was equally clear, that it was impossible to raise any considerable sum in that way, unless in such a manner as to insure its being paid by the great body of the consumers, as no tax which pressed on a small body of the people could be expected to produce any large portion of revenue. He was, therefore, a little alarmed by the expectations which seemed to be entertained by his hon. Friend, that the timber duties would be reduced. It might also be recollected, that in the statement which he made last Session, in introducing the sugar duties, the prospects of the revenue and expenditure were not so promising as they had been for some time, assuming that for the year 1847–8, they were to have the same expenditure as was estimated for the year 1846–7, together with the increased expenditure which it was not necessary to provide for in this year, but the necessity for providing for which in the ensuing year had been entailed on them by the measures of the late Government, the probability was that the revenue would exhibit a deficiency of 300,000l. or 400,000l. The revenue, however, had exceeded the most sanguine expectations which had been then 284 formed. It appeared from the balance-sheet, that up to the present time the revenue had considerably increased; and, if he could have any confidence in its continuance, he would be much more at ease on that subject than the present prospects of the country permitted him to be. It was perfectly true, that with respect to the customs' duties, they had increased upon every article, excepting those upon which the duties had been reduced; but the great increase had been upon the articles of sugar and corn. The noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck) spoke correctly, when he said that if he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) looked merely to the question of revenue, he should be sorry to lose the amount which was put into the Exchequer by the four shilling duty. But the present condition of the country, the state of Ireland, of some parts of Scotland, and also of some parts of England, would render it unjustifiable in him to look to the question of revenue alone in such an emergency. The amount of pressure which now weighed upon the country, the want of food, the high price of provisions, and the effect of all this upon the population, rendered it necessary to put aside, to a certain extent, any mere question of money for far higher considerations. It would be satisfactory to the people of Ireland to find that the Government of this country had done all in its power to reduce the price of corn, and to the Government itself that it had done all that it could do in the present emergency to alleviate the prevailing distress. These considerations alone, if none other existed, would appear to justify them, on the present occasion, in making some sacrifice of revenue. Not only had the customs' duties exhibited a very encouraging increase, but the produce of the excise had also been very considerable. It had exceeded the expectation of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) when he laid his statement before the House last year. Up to the 10th of October last, the excise duties had not only increased in this country, but in Ireland also. One of the many anomalies which met one at every turn in that country was, that the measures which had been taken for its supply last year, seemed so far to have increased its powers of consumption, that up to the 10th of October last, there was every appearance of prosperity, of the increase of wealth in that country. Since that period, however, a change had come over the revenue in that 285 country. During the last quarter, the excise duties had fallen off to some extent in Ireland; and he was afraid that the House and the Government must take that fact to be, to a certain extent, the forerunner of what they had to expect in reference to this country also, because the distress which had effected the change in Ireland, had extended in some measure to certain districts both of Scotland and England. A vast number of mills had, for some time back, been working short time in Manchester and other places; whilst it appeared that every article of consumption was very highly priced all over the kingdom; so that, however prosperous the revenue had been for some years back, it would be erroneous to calculate, under existing circumstances, from past experience, upon a continued prosperity to the general revenue to the same extent. For the last three or four years good harvests, and great commercial activity, fostered, in a great degree, by judicious legislation, and cheapness in the price of provisions, caused by abundance, had produced the general prosperity of all classes, and enabled them to consume large quantities of articles, paying customs or excise duties. Now, however, they had high prices and deficient harvests; and he was afraid that they could not depend upon the permanency of the general commercial activity to which he had just alluded, although large importations of corn might, and undoubtedly would, give a considerable increase of orders upon our manufactures. From all these considerations, and from other circumstances over which neither the Government nor Parliament could exercise any control, he should not be justified in holding out any very sanguine prospects to the country as respected the continued prosperity of the revenue, when compared with its produce for the last three or four years. He did not wish now to anticipate any general financial statement which might hereafter be laid before the House by the Government; but he deemed it advisable, after what had fallen from his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) on the previous evening, that he should state this much to the House; and he had this further reason for so doing, that in reference to the measure which he was about to introduce, he wished to show that it was not without some reason that he was careful about the revenue, and that in endeavouring to act justly and fairly between all parties concerned, he 286 could not afford to run the risk of making any sacrifice of revenue. After having stated so much as preliminary matter, he would now proceed to give an outline of the measures which it became his duty to propose. The requests which had reached the Government from time to time from the producers of sugar, were, generally speaking, three. In the first place, the admission of sugar and molasses for use in breweries; in the second place, its admission for use in distilleries; and in the third place, the reduction of the differential duty between the customs' duty on rum and the excise duty on spirits, had been urged upon the Government. The first measure then related to the admission of sugar into breweries, to be used in the process of brewing. The request in reference to this subject was, that both sugar and molasses should be admitted into the breweries. So far as sugar was concerned, he saw no objection to such a measure. As the law at present stood, sugar might be freely used by private brewers. The measure which he proposed to submit to the House was to relieve the public brewers, the brewers for sale, from the present prohibitions, which prevented them from using sugar in the process of brewing. Now, in reference to this, with regard to revenue, it would be, in point of fact, a matter of comparative indifference whether sugar or malt was used in the process of brewing. The duty payable upon a quarter of malt was 21s. 8d. The quantity of sugar supposed to be equivalent to a quarter of malt, for the purposes of brewing, was 180lbs.—the duty upon which would amount to about 22s. 6d. If that were so, if 180 lbs. of sugar, paying a duty of 22s. 6d., were the equivalent for a quarter of barley, paying a duty of 21s. 8d., the revenue, if the sugar displaced the barley in the process of brewing, would, on the whole, be a gainer rather than a loser. But he did not believe that sugar would altogether displace malt in the breweries. It would be the interest of the brewer not to brew from sugar alone, unless malt were at an extravagantly high price, or sugar extremely low. He believed that a certain quantity of sugar, though not a very large quantity, would be thus mixed with wort made from malt. This would, no doubt, facilitate the process of brewing, render it, to some extent, a cheaper process, reduce the price of the boer produced, and extend the use and consumption of malt; for whatever contributed to cheapen the price of beer to 287 the consumer, would necessarily extend the use of the article. In reference to the consequences of this measure, his belief was, that it was one in which the West India producer of sugar, the consumer of malt liquor in this country, and the grower of barley, would all find their account, inasmuch as by facilitating the use and consumption of beer it would give rise to a much greater consumption of the various articles which would henceforth enter into its composition. Without going into any long argument to prove it, he would here state a fact, which afforded sufficient evidence that the malt tax was paid by the consumer. Within the last few weeks the price of barley and malt had greatly risen, so much so, indeed, that one of the large breweries in London had, for a time, actually suspended their malting operations. A meeting of brewers had taken place recently in the city, to consider what was to be done under existing circumstances; the result of which meeting had been, that a resolution had been agreed upon to raise the price of beer a penny per pot. Upon this being determined upon, the large brewing establishment alluded to recommenced their operations, and what enabled them to recommence the malting process was the payment by the consumer of the additional penny which had thus been imposed upon the price of a pot of beer. It was quite clear, that had sugar been admitted then into use in breweries, it would have been possible for the brewers to have substituted sugar for the high-priced malt which they were compelled to use, which would have enabled them to recommence operations without resorting to the expedient of raising the price of beer to the consumer; whilst the holders of barley, from its continued consumption, would have been equally benefited by the admission of sugar into breweries, as they had been by the increase of price. Even in ordinary times, therefore, he believed that this measure would prove to be an unalloyed benefit to all parties. Under existing circumstances, with the present high price of malt, he believed that a very considerable benefit would arise from it to the consumer. A few days ago the price of malt was 84s. a quarter. It appeared from a pamphlet which he held in his hand that it had since risen to 88s.; and he was informed last night by some Gentleman in the House, that it had been up to 90s. This was a very high price, but taking it at the lowest 288 price, it was now 84s. a quarter. The cost of the material used in producing a given quantity of beer (about three barrels of strong beer) would be therefore 81s. 6d., making allowance for the value of the grains. Sugar was at 47s. a cwt. duty paid. At that price, 180 lbs. of it, the equivalent of a quarter of malt, would cost about 75s. 6d;. consequently, as between the quantity of beer produced from malt or from sugar at the present average price of malt, and the present price of sugar, there was an advantage, as regarded the cost of the beer produced, from the latter of 6s., which would go to the consumer. This would not only bring an increased quantity of beer into use, but would also tend to reduce, to some extent, the present exorbitant price of corn. He believed that if they took the price of malt for some years back, it had been at three guineas, or 62s., a quarter; and, in order to enable sugar to compete with it, at that price, sugar must be as low as 35s. per cwt. duty paid, which was lower than he thought it likely to be. In ordinary times, therefore, there would be no competition between sugar and malt, in the process of brewing; but in times of scarcity like the present, sugar would displace malt, to a great extent, so that much of the barley which would otherwise be used for brewing purposes, would thus be released to the benefit of the consumer. The introduction of sugar would facilitate the process of brewing, and promote the consumption of malt; in ordinary times, the case would be analogous to that of foreign wool, the reduction of the duties upon which, and the results consequent upon that reduction, were favourable to the increase of the manufacture of the wool grown in this country, which was more easily worked up when mixed with foreign wool. By the introduction of sugar into brewing processes, the brewer would be enabled to work up a larger quantity of malting barley. With regard to sugar, therefore, the proposal which he had to make to the House was, that brewers might be permitted to use duty-paid sugar for the purpose of brewing. He also meant to propose the extension to beer brewed from sugar of the same drawback which was extended to malt liquors. With regard to the other article sought also to be admitted into use in brewing, he was not prepared to extend the same facilities to the use of molasses for such purpose. On more than one occasion 289 sugar had already been permitted to be so used; but he was not aware that a similar permission had ever been extended to molasses. A difficulty would arise, should molasses be allowed to be so used, from its different qualities; and he was, on the whole, inclined to think that the inconveniences which would arise from sanctioning the use of molasses would preponderate over all the benefits which could possibly accrue. The value of the brewing qualities of molasses was far greater, in proportion to the duty levied upon it, than was that of sugar. The duty on molasses was 5s. 3d. The quantity of molasses considered equivalent to a quarter of barley was estimated at 252 lbs. Of some kinds, it was held that 260 lbs. was the equivalent quantity, and of others again 303 lbs. The difference between 252 lbs. and 303 lbs. was about one-sixth; so that it was difficult to calculate what the equivalent with the duty would be. Assuming 252 lbs. of molasses to be equivalent to a quarter of malt, it would be necessary, in order that the revenue should not lose from the introduction of molasses into breweries, that a duty of 9s. 8d. instead of a duty of 5s. 3d. should be imposed upon it. In that case, therefore, one of the two courses must be taken—either a duty of 9s. 8d. must be imposed upon all molasses, or an excise duty must be imposed on all molasses used in brewing equivalent to the difference between that and 5s. 3d. If 303 lbs. should be taken as the equivalent to a quarter of malt, the necessary duty to make up the revenue would then be 8s., and in that case the excise duty, should such a duty be preferred, would only be the difference between 8s. and 5s. 3d. It was, therefore, evident that a large door to fraud would be opened were molasses allowed to be used; for it would be difficult to distinguish between such molasses as paid and such as did not pay the excise duty. It would be necessary, in order to protect the revenue, to re-establish the minute excise survey which had been so long discontinued—a system which could not but prove both injurious and expensive to distillers and brewers—while he did not believe that the permission in question could be of any very great value to West Indian proprietors. The process of manufacturing sugar was daily improving in the West Indies, and the result was the production of a diminished quantity of molasses, and an increased quantity of rum. He now came to the question of distilleries. By the law as 290 it at present stood, sugar might be used in distilleries. It might be used by any distiller on giving due notice of his intention so to do; but he was not allowed to use sugar and grain together. It was necessary too that a certain interval, prescribed by law, should elapse between the operation of distillation from grain and distillation from sugar. That regulation was indispensable, in order to guard against frauds upon the revenue, which it would be impossible to prevent if permission were given to use grain and sugar together in the process of distillation. Every Gentleman in the House would probably be disposed to yield a ready assent to the proposition that spirits were an article on which it was quite fair to raise the maximum amount of duty. No one could be anxious to extend the consumption of spirits by the reduction of duty. The only limit to the amount of duty upon spirit was the risk of illicit distillation. It was that which had hitherto regulated the amount of duty in the United Kingdom, and the rule was a sound one. In England the duty was, at present, 7s. 10d., and upon the whole that might justly be deemed a fair amount; but in Scotland and Ireland it had been found utterly impossible to maintain so high a duty, or even one approaching it in amount. Attempts had been made to obtain a larger amount of revenue by raising the duty; but the object had invariably been defeated by the encouragement which was thereby given to illicit distillation. After considerable experience, it now seemed to be admitted that the amount of duty at present existing in each country was the highest that could be obtained without affording encouragement to illicit distillation, with all its train of demoralizing effects. Looking, therefore, at the immense amount of revenue fairly raised from spirits, it was of essential importance that in any measure which might be adopted, precautions should be taken against any loss or diminution of that revenue by the agency of fraud. One of the tests used in charging the duty on spirits made from grain would be wanting in the process of distillation from sugar. The excise officers said, that as far as their experience enabled them to form an opinion on the subject, it would be impossible to prevent fraud if the two articles, sugar and grain, were allowed to be used together in distillation. The House might recollect that a few years since the proprietors of a large distillery incurred penalties amounting to several hundred thousand pounds for frauds 291 upon the revenue; and it was certainly desirable that precautions should be taken to guard against the occurrence of similar cases. It was not probable, however, that the withholding of permission to use sugar and grain conjointly in distillation would injuriously affect distillers, because, on referring to the evidence by distillers given before a Committee of the House, he found it to be their opinion that it was not advantageous to use molasses or sugar and grain together in the process of distillation. Mr. Atlee, a large distiller, said—
Sugar, molasses, or corn, should be worked separately. Working them together is never found effective. He would never use molasses and corn together. If a mixture be made of sugar or molasses with grain, they do not act together in the fermentation. Various experiments were tried, but he found it not to his advantage to mix the molasses and sugar with corn-wash, and therefore discontinued it.Mr. Smith, another eminent distiller, said, in reply to various questions—I think that molasses with grain could not be fermented with advantage together Using molasses together with corn, I think, would bring on loss by imperfect fermentation. I would never use molasses, except alone; so with sugar—so with corn. I would never mix them. With respect to molasses, it was perceived, on all hands, that that material could not be eligibly introduced into the distillery. I am sure that molasses, mixed with grain, would be injurious to us. When allowed to use sugar, we never brewed from a mixture of sugar and grain. If the use of molasses were permitted in the breweries, the facility thereby afforded to illicit distillation would be prodigious. The introduction of molasses into distilleries, I think, would lead extensively to smuggling. I do not wish to see molasses introduced, unless they were used separately and distinctly. The burning of sugar, to convert it into molasses, is one of the reasons why I would not use molasses. Let me have good plain sugar that I can judge of; but there is something in the very name of molasses that horrifies me. I have long been satisfied that to brew from a mixture of corn and molasses would not be advantageous, and the two processes would never work properly together, but would indeed be very disadvantageous.Inasmuch, therefore, as it appeared from the evidence of the distillers that they did not think it advantageous to them to use sugar or molasses and grain together, and had not done so when permitted, he did not think it could be productive of any real disadvantage to maintain a prohibition necessary for the protection of the revenue. The main objection to the use of sugar in distilleries was the amount of duty levied on sugar. That objection he proposed to remove. He proposed to allow the use of sugar duty free in distilleries, except to this extent—that he must have 292 on sugar used in distillation an amount of duty equivalent to the duty paid on malt used in distillation. In England spirit was distilled from various sorts of grain used in this proportion—two parts of malt, two parts of oats, and eighteen parts of barley. To make the case clear to the House, he would suppose that a quantity of spirit was run off from two quarters of malt, two quarters of oats, and eighteen quarters of barley; it must be evident that the produce of that distillation would pay the amount of the spirit duty levied per gallon as well as the malt duty previously paid upon the two quarters of malt used in the process. What he proposed was, that spirit made from sugar should pay the same duty as spirit made from grain, and also a sum equivalent to the malt duty, so as to put sugar and malt on precisely an equal footing. The mode in which he proposed to effect this was, he conceived, free from all objection. He proposed that distillers should take sugar from the bonding warehouses, paying the duty upon it, and if they used it for purposes of distillation, when they came to pay the spirit duty, they should have an allowance from that equivalent to the difference between the duty which they had paid on sugar, and that which they would have to pay on malt. That difference, calculated according to the allowance made under previous Acts, would amount to 1s. 2d. per cwt.; consequently an allowance of 12s. 10d. on the quantity of spirit which it was calculated would be produced from a hundred-weight of sugar would leave that spirit in this situation—that it would be relieved from all the duty paid on spirit, and would have paid a duty equivalent to that paid upon malt used in producing a similar quantity. The distinction between the duty on beer and that on spirit was this—that, in the case of beer, the duty was levied on the raw material—malt; and in the case of spirit the main part of the duty was levied on the manufactured article, and only a part on a portion of the raw material employed—namely, malt. He found that, in previous Acts, it was calculated that 11½ gallons of spirit could be produced from a hundred-weight of sugar; and, therefore, 12s. 10d. would be deducted from the amount of spirit duty payable on that quantity. It had taken some time to explain that point, and he hoped that he had made himself clear. The calculation was, after all, an exceedingly simple one; it resulted in this—that on every 11½ gallons of spirit made 293 from sugar, there would be a drawback of 12s. 10d. The allowance would be calculated on the 14s. duty payable on British colonial sugar; all other sugar would have paid the differential duty, and thus the British colonist would continue to enjoy the advantage established in his favour by the Act of last Session. He found the price of barley stated in the returns at 54s. He believed the price had advanced since the returns were made up; but he would take the present price to be 54s. The present price of sugar was 33s., duty free, at which price it would fairly compete with barley at 54s. Looking back to a series of years, if he took the average price of malting barley at 30s., he would not be far from the mark. To compete with barley at 30s., sugar must reach a point as low as 18s. per cwt. It had not yet been sold at that price; and he did not think it likely that it would. In ordinary times, therefore, it would not be reasonable to anticipate much competition between barley and sugar. The competition would depend at all times on the relative prices of the two articles. When the price of barley was high, and that of sugar low, the latter would come into competition with the former; but when the price of sugar rose, and that of barley fell, the competition would cease; for under ordinary circumstances it was much more advantageous to distil from grain than from sugar. It was not his intention to admit molasses into distilleries; and in coming to that decision he was chiefly influenced by the consideration of the facilities which would thereby be afforded for defrauding the revenue — a point which was adverted to in the evidence of Mr. Smith, which he had read to the House. The trifling advantage which could be gained from allowing the use of molasses in distilleries would be more than counterbalanced by the expensive machinery it would be necessary to have recourse to in order to guard against fraud. He now came to the duty on rum. Last year the duty on British spirits was fixed at 7s. 10d., and that on colonial rum at 9s. 4d. per gallon; being a difference of 1s. 6d. Many attempts had been made, at various times, to reduce the amount of the difference in the duty on rum and British spirits; but they had always been successfully resisted. The grounds on which the difference of duty was defended were various. One was no longer tenable; he alluded to the duty formerly imposed on the importation of foreign grain, Another 294 ground was the malt duty; but that on which reliance chiefly was placed was the great disadvantage under which the British distiller laboured, and the increased outlay of capital to which he was compelled to have recourse, in order to conform with the regulations imposed by the Excise. Last year his attention was directed to the subject, and, being inclined to think that the disadvantages under which the British distillers laboured were more than covered by the differential duty on spirits, he called upon both parties to lay before him the view which they respectively took of the case. The West India interest, in compliance with the appeal which he made to them, estimated the British distillers' disadvantage as equivalent to 2d. per gallon; and they at the same time suggested, that the British distillers should be relieved from some of the restrictions which the excise laws imposed upon them in carrying on their trade. The British distillers, on the other hand, estimated their disadvantage as equivalent to 1s. 4d. per gallon. These were extreme statements; but, on the investigation he had been able to give the subject, he thought there were some grounds for the assertion that the distillers were subject to some disadvantages in prosecuting their trade in consequence of various restrictions. From reference to the most experienced excise officers, he thought they had some claim to relief on this ground; it was very difficult to say exactly what the amount of that relief should be: but he thought that the only probable grounds on which they claimed relief, were upon their own showing somewhere about 9d. or 10d. a gallon. The only possible mode of settlement was by a kind of compromise between the conflicting parties; he had some wish, perhaps, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, to sacrifice no more revenue than he could help; but on the whole he thought he should meet the justice of the case by reducing the differential duty on colonial spirit from 1s., which it was at present, to 6d., leaving it that amount, 6d., above the duty paid by the English distiller. He now came to the question of the duty on colonial rum imported into Scotland and Ireland: that duty was not only different in Ireland and Scotland, but in both countries it was less than in England. It would be recollected that the excise duty on Scotch and Irish spirits was in both countries considerably lower than that in England: the respective rates being, in England, 7s. 10d., in Scotland, 295 3s. 8d., and in Ireland, 2s. 8d. The claim of the West Indians was, that they should be allowed to introduce rum into Scotland and Ireland at the same amount over the present duties in those countries as he proposed they should do over that in England: in other words, that rum should be allowed into Scotland and Ireland at a duty of 6d. higher than that charged on the native spirits of those countries. Thus, the import duty on rum would be 4s. 2d. per gallon for Scotland, and 3s. 2d. for Ireland. He found by a return he had that day received, that within the last thirty or forty years the quantity of rum imported into Scotland had diminished to an extraordinary degree. From 304,000 gallons, at which the import stood at the beginning of the century, it had sunk, through a variety of lessening quantities, 253,000 gallons, 241,000 gallons, 198,000 gallons, down to 104,000 gallons in 1836; and, for the year 1845, the whole quantity of colonial spirits entered for consumption in Scotland was no more than 43,000 gallons. In Ireland the diminution of the quantity imported had been still more extraordinary. In 1809 it was 1,000,000 gallons; it soon after began to fall off, and, for the last four or five years, the import had stood at such quantities as 13,000, 12,000, and 11,000 gallons a year. He thought much of this diminution had been caused by a change in the taste of the people, which led them to prefer the spirits produced in their own countries. Nevertheless, this broad fact was evident, that the importation of colonial spirits had been excessively diminished; and he thought that diminution justified him in reducing the import duty in those countries to the rates he had proposed. If he was right in his conclusion, that the diminished import was caused by a change in the taste of the people, he did not expect that the present reduction of the duty would produce any very great effect; in the seaports it might give an impulse to the consumption, but he did not anticipate any considerable increase in the inland districts. The best effect would be this—it would encourage the introduction of a sound article at a reasonable rate, and thus prevent the distillation of an inferior kind of spirit, which frequently passed as colonial rum; the change would benefit both consumer and producer. One objection which had been duly weighed by the Government, was the probability of an increase in smuggling, or the introduction of spirits which had paid 296 the rate of duty in one country into another for consumption. But it was proposed to keep the transmission of spirits from one country to another under the present regulations; it would be moved only from one bonding warehouse to another; and when taken out for consumption, to pay the rate of duty for the country in which it was discharged from bond. Thus, spirits moved from Glasgow to England, and there taken into consumption, would pay the English rate of duty, and so with spirits moved from Scotland to Ireland, or vice versâ. From communications with the officers of excise, he could state that there would be no difficulty to speak of in preventing smuggling. Upon the whole, he hoped his proposal would be considered by the various interests as a fair settlement. With respect to its effect on the revenue, he did not think, on the balance of the different measures, there would be either a loss or gain. The loss consequent on the reduction in the duty on rum last year was 60,000l. He did not know whether it was to be attributed to that reduction or not; but he certainly found, that within the last three months there had been a great increase in the importation of rum, compared with the quantity imported in the corresponding months of the year preceding. In the month ending the 10th of October, 1845, there were imported 215,419 gallons; to the 5th of November, 194,570 gallons; to the 5th of December, 245,391 gallons. In the month ending the 10th of October, 1846, the quantity imported was 263,681 gallons; to the 5th of November, 222,999 gallons; the 5th of December, 300,304 gallons. The total quantity for the last three months of 1845 was 655,380 gallons; for the same period of 1846 it was 789,984 gallons, being an increase over the import of 1845 of 134,604 gallons. He was sanguine enough to believe that the loss of revenue by the reduction of the duty would thus be more than made up by the increased consumption; 26,000l. was all the revenue derived from the duty on rum in Ireland and Scotland—no great amount. He would now state the result of these various measures. Sugar, duty paid, would be allowed to be used in breweries; sugar, practically duty free, would be permitted to be used in distilleries; there would be a reduction of 6d. a gallon in the duty on rum imported into England, and that import duty in Ireland and Scotland, which was practically a prohibitory one, would be considerably reduced. 297 If the result of the measure with regard to breweries and distilleries should have the effect of setting free a greater amount of barley for human food, he should feel rejoiced. At the present moment they must depend to a considerable extent on barley for the supply of food; and if any quantity of that grain should be displaced and made available for human food he should not regret it. He did not expect that these measures would reduce the price of grain, but they would tend to keep them from rising higher. He did not think it necessary to prohibit the use of grain in distilleries; it would not set free such a quantity of corn for human food as would justify them in deranging the operations of trade. One immediate effect would be to give an immediate impulse to illicit distillation. Now in that illicit process it was calculated that one-third of the grain used was wasted. This was a serious evil, and to the extent of one-third the supposed benefit of stopping legal distilleries might not be realized. In point of fact, however, distillation from grain was at that moment to a great extent stopped in Ireland by the high price of barley. He had received a letter from a great Irish distiller, dated the 14th of January, from which he would read an extract. It said—Since the 19th of December the corn-markets of this country have undergone great changes, and prices of all grain have run up to excessive rates, and even at these there has been such a falling off in the supply of distillers' corn that some houses are about to stop working, having none, and being unable to procure any. I may say that by far the greater proportion of barley that will be used by distillers for the rest of the season will be foreign. In fact, the price of English barley acts of itself as a prohibition, being nearly 60s. a quarter for such quality as distillers purchase. This, together with its scarcity, will in all probability have the effect of inducing them to use sugar and molasses, if any measure be introduced by Government for that purpose.Distillation from grain being practically stopped, it was not worth while to make any further attempt that way; to give facilities for the use of sugar both in breweries and distilleries would, he believed, be an effectual means of attaining the object they all had in view; and the circumstances which made these measures necessary rendered it most desirable that they should be passed with as little delay as possible consistent with their practical consideration. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the following Resolutions:—
- 1. Resolved—That it is expedient to suspend, for a time to be limited, the Duties on the importation
298 of Buck Wheat, Buck Wheat Meal, Maize or Indian Corn, Indian Corn Meal, and Rice. - 2. Resolved—That it is expedient to allow the use of Sugar in the brewing of Beer.
- 3. Resolved—That there be allowed and paid a Drawback of five shillings, and five per centum on the exportation to foreign parts of every thirty-six gallons of Beer or Ale, the worts used in the brewing whereof shall not be of lower specific gravity than 1.054; and a Drawback of seven shillings and sixpence, and five per centum on the exportation of such Beer or Ale, the worts used in the brewing whereof shall not be of less specific gravity than 1.081.
- 4. Resolved—That an allowance of twelve shillings and ten pence be granted to every Distiller of Spirits in the United Kingdom for and in respect of every eleven gallons and a half (and so in proportion) of Spirits produced from Sugar used by such Distiller in the making of Spirits upon which the Duties granted by Law shall have been paid.
- 5. Resolved—That it is expedient to make Regulations relative to the Distillation of Spirits from Sugar, in England, Scotland, and Ireland.
- 6. Resolved—That in lieu of the Duties of Customs now chargeable on the articles undermentioned, imported into the United Kingdom, the following Duties shall be charged, viz.
§ Spirits, or Strong Waters, for every gallon of such Spirits or Strong Waters, of any strength not exceeding the strength of Proof by Sykes's hydrometer, and so on in proportion for any greater or less strength than the strength of Proof, and for any greater or less quantity than a gallon, viz.
§ Spirits, or Strong Waters, the produce of any British Plantation in America, not being sweetened Spirits, or Spirits mixed with any article, so that the degree of strength thereof cannot be exactly ascertained by such hydrometer,
| s. | d. | |
| If imported into England, the gallon | 8 | 4 |
| If imported into Scotland the gallon | 4 | 2 |
| If imported into Ireland the gallon | 3 | 2 |
§ Spirits, Rum, the produce of any British Possession within the limits of the East India Company's Charter, not being sweetened Spirits, or Spirits so mixed as aforesaid, in regard to which the conditions of the Act 4 Vic. c. 8. have or shall have been fulfilled,
| s. | d. | |
| If imported into England, the gallon | 8 | 4 |
| If imported into Scotland the gallon | 4 | 2 |
| If imported into Ireland the gallon | 3 | 2 |
§ Spirits, Rum Shrub, however sweetened, the produce of and imported from such Possessions, in regard to which the conditions of the Act 4 Vic. c. 8, had or shall have been fulfilled, or the produce of and imported from any British Possession in America,
| s. | d. | |
| If imported into England, the gallon | 8 | 4 |
| If imported into Scotland the gallon | 4 | 2 |
| If imported into Ireland the gallon | 3 | 2 |
§ Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.
§ The Resolution having been put,
§ LORD G. BENTINCKsaid, the perfect mastery of the subject the right hon. Gentleman had displayed, and the perspicuity 299 and simplicity with which he had explained the measures of Her Majesty's Government, left no one an excuse for pretending he did not understand them; but the House would scarcely expect him to enter into all these details. The measures of the Government were not liable to the great objection he had so often stated against the remission of taxes paid for the most part by foreigners, in preference to the remission of other taxes paid almost exclusively by British subjects. Though the proposition was one for admitting a certain kind of produce to a rivalship with that of the agriculture of this country, yet, with the exception of foreign slave-grown sugar, it was not a question between foreign and British produce, and therefore not open to the objection he had always raised to the free admission of foreign productions to compete with British. There was another reason why he was not disposed strongly to object to the proposition of the Government, and it was this—that he did not think it would in any degree diminish the revenue of the country. They had drawn from the right hon. Gentleman a gloomy picture of the prospects of one portion of the revenue, and of the state of the manufacturing districts as well as of Ireland; but it was, nevertheless, some consolation to his (Lord G. Bentinck's) Friends, the protectionists, to learn that it was owing to the fact that the political economists and free traders had not meddled with the great heads of the revenue, namely, the taxes on tobacco, and sugar, and tea, and excise, that the right hon. Gentleman did not come before the House as a bankrupt. He was not going to follow his right hon. Friend in his detailed statement; he, as did others, wished for time for more mature consideration; and his chief object in rising was to beseech his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury to pass this as a temporary rather than as a permanent measure. The noble Lord must have perceived it was the great desire of his (Lord G. Bentinck's) Friends to support the noble Lord to the utmost of their power in every measure connected with Ireland, whether or not they were enabled to approve of such scheme altogether or not; that they were most anxious to avoid throwing any the slightest obstacle in the way of Her Majesty's Government in their attempt to avert the present famine, whether or not they were convinced that the best course to attain that end was being taken. He could not, therefore, be misunderstood, 300 when he most earnestly prayed that the noble Lord would give his consent, without prejudice to the Government, on the one side, or to them (the protectionists), on the other, to deal with the present as only a temporary measure, and, at some later period of the Session, when the affairs of Ireland were settled, to come to the House, if he then thought fit, with the permanent Bill. The right hon. Gentleman would admit, if the high prices of malt had induced a certain great maltster and brewer to suspend the carrying on his business, that the effect also would be to diminish the consumption of barley — thereby lowering the price; he was not, therefore, prepared to concur in the opinion, that the tax upon malt was paid entirely by the consumer, as the right hon. Gentleman had stated. He could not understand what was meant by his right hon. Friend, if he maintained that the tax was paid in toto by the consumer, when the effect of the high price of beer had been such as to compel the suspension of the operations of malting. He (Lord G. Bentinck) apprehended that, if no malting went on, barley could not be sold; when, of course, the consequence would be very much to lower the price of barley; and this he regarded as a material loss to the grower of barley. Therefore, whilst consenting that sugar should enter for the present into competition with barley, he begged to inform his noble Friend, frankly and above board, that it would add another to the claims of the agriculturists upon the Government for the remission of the malt and hop duties. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the increased price of malt had increased the price of beer by a penny a pot; if, however, the duty were reduced on malt and hops, the price of beer would be brought back to what it was before, inasmuch as these taxes amounted to a penny a pot: and, let it be remembered, these were taxes paid exclusively by British subjects. These were the reasons why he entreated that his right hon. Friend should pass the present measure as a temporary measure, in order that he might proceed with the other measures for the relief of Ireland without any obstruction. He could assure his noble Friend, that if he persevered in making it a permanent measure, many hon. Members would feel themselves obliged to offer every obstruction to its becoming the law. Therefore he besought his noble Friend to listen to the prayer of those who made it, in perfect good will, without the 301 least desire to embarrass his Government upon the subject.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENconfessed that he had never heard a statement with more disappointment than that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had been inclined to believe that the Government would bring forward their measure as a proposal to increase the supply of food by diminishing the consumption of grain in breweries and distilleries, and he had expected that some statement would have been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to show that such would be the tendency of this measure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, told the House, that he proposed to admit sugar into breweries and distilleries; but that, except under certain contingencies, he did not think that it would diminish the consumption of barley. As he understood the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, he believed it would rather increase the prices. The admission of molasses would have displaced grain from the breweries, and would therefore have been a boon to those desirous of diminishing the consumption of grain in those establishments; but the Chancellor of the Exchequer told them that he had no intention of proposing it. The same statement was applicable to distilleries; sugar was to be used there, but not molasses. Molasses would displace grain, and release it for food; sugar would not do so, except when the prices of barley were very high.
§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERexplained that his statements referred to present prices. In brewing thirty-six gallons of strong beer, there was at present a difference of 6s. in favour of malt.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENwould accept that explanation. In point of fact, as the case was stated by the right hon. Gentleman himself, they were not to expect any sort of increase to the supply of food for the Irish people from the measures of Her Majesty's Government. That was a most appalling fact under the present circumstances of that country. He should have expected that any measure of this character would have facilitated to the farthest extent the substitution of sugar and molasses for grain. The duty of Government, in his opinion, was to prohibit the use of grain altogether in distilleries and breweries; and he could not understand how the present measure would be of service in increasing the supply of grain for food. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman 302 was most untimely; he thought he would have heard him declare the intention of Government to prohibit the use of grain—if Her Majesty's Ministry had but done so, they would have liberated 30,000,000 stone of corn for the ensuing year.
§ MR. D. CALLAGHANhad heard the proposition of Government with great regret. He was quite prepared to say, that it would have a very great effect on the growth of grain in Scotland and Ireland; what would be its effects in England he left to the consideration of the agricultural party in the House and elsewhere. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had no doubt made out his case very clearly; but he would endeavour to show the House, by one or two simple instances, that the right hon. Gentleman might not have sufficiently considered all the points of his case. Let them just look at the differential duty between spirits made from molasses in the West Indies, and from corn in Ireland and Scotland. It was well known that spirits were made in the latter countries from malt and raw corn. Now, the right hon. Gentleman had not at all dealt with the case of malt spirits in either country. He was going to add 6d. to the spirit duty in Scotland and Ireland at present, and would let in rum against it with only 6d. difference. When the 3s. 8d. duty paid in Scotland should have added to it the duty paid upon the malt, and that was at least 6d. in that country—that 6d. being added to the 3s. 8d. made the whole duty 4s. 2d.; and the duty on rum, to be admitted against it, would be only 4s. 4d.; making a difference between the spirits of only 1½d. or 2d. He allowed the West Indian to distil from molasses; but he would not allow the Scotchman or the Irishman to do so. There was no reciprocity in the case, and this was a point which his right hon. Friend must alter in Committee. He had no doubt of the right hon. Gentleman's good intentions; but he must, on looking into this point, see the justice to the distillers and agriculturists of making some alteration in this respect. He could not but say, that knowing, as he did, the vast amount of capital expended on this branch of business in Ireland, and in his own county (Cork) particularly — fostered as it had been by every Government up to the present time—he looked with dismay on this proposition, and on the change which would take place in consequence. They would be driven to free trade in self-defence; and the result must be, that the 303 distillers' trade would be destroyed. He, therefore, could not rest without making that statement, which he hoped would have the effect of inducing Her Majesty's Government to reconsider some points of their present measure.
§ MR. G. BANKESbegged to join in the urgent request of his noble Friend the Member for Lynn, that this measure might be passed merely as a temporary rather than as a permanent measure. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that one of the main objects in bringing forward this measure was to aid in alleviating the present calamities of Ireland. They were of course all willing to do what they could for the relief of Ireland; but as he hoped that its distress would be but temporary, this measure would not be considered as a permanent one with reference to that particular object. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) was perfectly aware that there had been a very strong feeling manifested during the last few months in reference to the duties upon malt. He was also well aware that on that day a large and influential deputation had waited upon him urging strongly the claims of the agricultural interest on this subject. He was also well aware that the gentlemen who addressed him at that deputation, although they had unanimously agreed as to the necessity of the remission of the duty on malt, had, notwithstanding, in the present difficult state of the country, consented to waive their immediate desire upon that head; and he thought, therefore, that the noble Lord would feel that those persons had a just and honourable claim to have this matter considered at some subsequent period, when it might be calmly and fully deliberated upon, free from those circumstances of anxiety which must surround every subject coming before the House in the present emergency. As the class of whom he had spoken had consented to waive their claims, he therefore urgently requested the noble Lord would, on his side, waive his intention of rendering this a permanent measure until that period had arrived when it could be calmly and coolly considered on its intrinsic merits. He perfectly agreed with the noble Lord that this was a very different measure from those measures in which the interests of the foreigner were considered as competing with those of this country. They were perfectly aware that the colonial interest was to be considered as an integral part of the interests of the nation; but, inasmuch 304 as the question of the slave trade and of the foreign-grown sugar was involved in this question, he sincerely hoped that the noble Lord might accede to the request that the measure should only be a temporary one.
§ MR. GOULBURNsaid, that at the close of the last Session he had taken upon himself the liberty of advising those who were deeply interested in the prosperity of the West Indies to avoid taking any rash measures for throwing their estates out of cultivation, in consequence of the views of the Government as to the admission of foreign sugar. In giving them this advice he deliberately stated to them—and he had said to the House at the time—that in consideration of the competition to which they were then to be exposed from foreign commodities, he thought they had an irresistible claim to have their produce admitted to fair competition with other produce, whether of the United Kingdom or the colonies; and that in that claim they should have every support that he could give them. He felt, therefore, that he individually was under a particular obligation on the present occasion to support the claim of the colonies to the admission of their produce to those advantages which the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer offered them, and which, taken generally, were offered in a fair and liberal spirit. Hon. Friends near him suggested that there were interests in this country which had a strong claim upon the Government to demand that the present arrangement should be only temporary; but they must consider, on the other hand, that the colonial interest at the end of last Session, when their produce was exposed to competition with the foreigner, had a fair claim to say that that was the period at which they should receive a permanent advantage. They were not now, therefore, for the first time discussing this question; they were merely fulfilling a pledge which he understood to have been given by the right hon. Baronet that the question should be fully considered at the earliest period of the Session, and which had influenced him in the advice he publicly gave to his hon. Friends behind him to accept the terms of the Government, and the plan of the sugar duties then under consideration. With respect to the propriety of making this measure temporary, his hon. Friends who sat beside him had not stated the period of time to which they proposed that this measure should 305 be limited: his hon. Friend near him said, to the month of September next. Now this was, as the right hon. Baronet had properly stated, not a measure brought forward with a view to relieve the distress which existed in Ireland; it was a measure which would have been brought forward had there been no distress prevailing in any part of the United Kingdom. It was a commercial arrangement, based on previous claims, and rendered necessary by them in order to deal justly with the interests of a great body of our fellow-subjects; and he would ask any man whether a commercial arrangement intended to last till the month of September next was calculated to benefit any interest whatever? If there was any one point against which experience had warned them, it was the imprudence of a temporary arrangement for a short period. They knew perfectly well that the annual arrangement which used to be made respecting the sugar duties was to that particular interest a source of great vexation, pecuniary loss, and, what was worse, gambling speculation. They had felt that for a considerable number of years; but what must be the inconvenience if they now said that they would enact the reduction of the rum duties merely to bring them nearer to the equivalent duties on British produce; and enact it only until the month of September, leaving the subject to be then reconsidered. The effect of that would be to create a great deal of speculation in the public mind as to whether Government was strong enough or was disposed to carry the measure, and therefore they would have the whole trade paralysed, and a door left open for operations founded on information which particular parties might think themselves enabled to derive, either from the opinions expressed in Parliament, or conversations which might be held with persons officially connected with the Government. Whether as regarded the manufacturer in England, or the importer from the West Indies, it would place them in such a position that neither would be enabled to carry on his trade with effect. If it were wished that the measure should be operative, either by the withdrawal of barley from the general consumption, and the substitution of sugar, or in any other way, the end would not be attained by a temporary arrangement; for he did not believe that any one would have the hardihood to embark his capital in the manufacture of spirits, or still less of beer, from sugar, or in the importation of the 306 material, under a law which was only to last for the limited space of some five or six months. He trusted, therefore, that they would take a larger and more general view of this question, and would be prepared to say whether, after freedom of trade with foreign countries had been sanctioned and established, they would impose particular restrictions on the colonies; whether the latter had not a claim to participate in the advantages offered by the present plan. With respect to the details of the measure, he should say but little; the statement made by the right hon. Baronet had been throughout so clear, and the grounds on which it was brought forward so ably expressed, that he should only weaken the effect of that statement if he were to attempt to go through its arguments. He agreed with the right hon. Baronet, as far as related to the admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries, that exaggerated views had been taken by the colonists of the benefits it was likely to confer; and if alarms were entertained by those who supplied barley to these establishments at present, he thought their fears could only arise from not having duly attended to the circumstances of the case. He entirely concurred with the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the revenue must be protected, not only for the sake of the two great interests concerned, but because it was essential to the general welfare and prosperity of the country. Though he might be disposed to argue, if revenue considerations were not concerned, that the indulgence given to sugar should be extended also to molasses; yet knowing, as he did, the extent of fraud which the introduction of that article into breweries and distilleries would occasion, and the loss the revenue would thereby sustain, he thought the right hon. Baronet had shown ample grounds for the exclusion of that particular commodity. The right hon Baronet had justly stated that sugar would probably not be generally introduced into distilleries, unless there should be concurrently a high price of malt and a low price of sugar. The calculations on which the right hon. Baronet had founded his statement could not, he thought, be overthrown; but the experience they had, also showed generally that the introduction of sugar would not to any extent displace barley or malt. As the law at present stood, private breweries might use sugar in the manufacture of the beer they consumed; and the consumption 307 of malt in private breweries amounted to three-eighths of the whole produce of the country. These private breweries were not merely confined to gentlemen who brewed only for their own consumption; but extended also to those who, employing large numbers of persons, gave beer as part of the wages; and to whom it was, therefore an object to brew at the least possible cost. And yet, after the most diligent inquiry, at a time when malt had been at an exaggerated price, he did not know an instance in which it appeared that sugar had been used in breweries. He remembered that Mr. Calvert, one of the greatest brewers in the metropolis, when examined before a Committee of that House on that particular point, stated that it was not for the advantage of public brewers to use sugar, even when malt had reached a price of 75s. or 80s. It was not, therefore, his opinion that sugar would be extensively introduced, or that any diminution of the quantity of malt would ensue from the admission of sugar in breweries. But the power given to each manufacturer of freely exercising his own discretion as to the materials he should use in the course of trade, was of itself a considerable advantage; and when periods arrived at which, from the fluctuation of the market, he might otherwise be compelled to contract his operations, trade would not be disturbed, because the substitution of sugar for malt would be the means of carrying it on equably and regularly without any alteration in the price of the commodity. He should not enter on the part of the plan which referred to the duty on rum, as from the terms of the right hon. Gentleman's notice, he had not expected that any statement on the subject would be made; and, therefore, he was not prepared with the documents necessary for an examination of the particular amount of differential duty proposed to be retained in favour of the British producer. Nothing could be more difficult or intricate than to weigh the inconvenience sustained by one interest against that sustained by another, and to reduce them to pecuniary values. In assenting to the proposal of the right hon. Baronet on the present occasion, he of course reserved to himself the liberty of further considering the whole system embraced in the measure when it again came before the House. But generally he would express his opinion that in proposing this measure the right hon. Baronet had taken a course at once just to the interests concerned, 308 beneficial as regarded the general interests of the country, and had fulfilled the pledge given at the close of last Session that the subject should be brought forward at the earliest possible period.
§ MR. WODEHOUSEhoped that the earnest requests of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn, and of the hon. Member for Dorsetshire, that the measure should be but temporary, would be acceded to by the Government. He believed he spoke the feeling of all around him when he said that every measure which the Government might think it wise to propose for the relief of Ireland in her present calamity should have their earnest support; but he must at the same time beg the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) to bear in mind that the agricultural interests were materially altered by the measures of last year, and it was truly impossible for those who had represented those interests in that House to hesitate for a moment in co-operating with the farming interests in their attempts to procure the abolition of the malt tax. Her Majesty's Ministers might prepare themselves, therefore, for the unmistakeable demand which would soon be made upon them to repeal that tax. The poor as well as the rich were equally interested in the success of the efforts which the agricultural party was about to make for the abolition of the duty upon malt.
§ MR. HUMEwished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there would be any objection to lay before the House in an intelligible form the reason why the Government was not prepared to extend to molasses the same favour as was proposed with respect to sugar? It evidently appeared, from what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, that in ordinary circumstances, the free admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries would have no effect; it might during the present price of barley, but generally speaking, he believed it would be inoperative. Therefore, the only article that would produce an effect was that of molasses, which this measure would shut out. He understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that the excise regulations were against its admission. If that was the reason, they ought at once to get rid of the excise, because it stood in the way of the public having cheap beer: it would render it impossible for them to profit by the great measure just proposed. He, therefore, hoped that his request as to the full explanation of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's reason for 309 not bringing molasses under the operation of this measure, would be complied with at some future period. On the whole, he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had made a very fair proposition.
§ MR. FINCHtrusted that the Government would not refuse to accede to the request that the measure should be only temporary. He had no intention of opposing the measure, but it was but right that the Government should, by making it merely temporary, afford the Members of the House an opportunity of consulting with their constituents, for the purpose of ascertaining their views of the proposal. He was glad to hear that this measure had been introduced principally with a view of mitigating Irish distress; and with regard to the colonial interests, he felt that they should be promoted. He believed that there was no portion of the British dominions that had greater reason to complain than the West Indian colonists, who had been deprived of that protection to which they were so justly entitled. It was justly said that this question did not merely relate to the British colonies, but also to foreign sugar growers. He had that day read of the arrival of three ships from the Brazils, laden with sugar, and it was stated that more arrivals might presently be expected from the same quarter; and he felt pretty confident that a large portion of the Brazilian sugar might be used in the distilleries and breweries. This was a measure, therefore, that involved foreign colonial produce and the slave trade; but as he had said, he was not certain that the agriculturists of this country would feel themselves called upon to oppose it. All that they asked was time for deliberation. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) had said that if the measure were limited to the 1st of September, the limitation of its operation might frustrate its beneficial effect. He did not understand his hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Bankes) to suggest that it should be limited to September. All he had asked was, that the Government would consent that the measure should, in the first instance, be but temporary; and such a request as that was but just. At all events, England, Ireland, and Scotland, should have time fairly to consider the matter. They should have an opportunity of consulting their representatives. He believed, however, that the consumers of beer in this country would be losers rather than gainers by the free admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries.
§ MR. BARCLAYhoped that the noble Lord would persevere in the proposal to abolish the restrictions upon the use of sugar in brewing and distillation. He would not enter into the question of the distress in Ireland. He rose on behalf of the colonies, and must express his decided conviction, that when protection had been withdrawn, a pledge had been given to the colonies that no restriction should be placed on the use of their staple commodities. And, indeed, that was but an act of simple justice, and what the colonies had a fair right to claim. It was a hardship that our colonial sugar should be subject to any duty whatever; for the sugar of Jamaica was as the wheat of England, and it was as unjust to levy a duty on the former as it would be on the latter. Hon. Gentlemen wished that this measure might be only of temporary character; but they gave the House reason to think that, at a later period, they would not be disinclined to its becoming a permanent one. Why not at once adopt the bolder step? Why tamper with a question of so much importance? The colonies were an integral part of the empire, and their fellow-subjects there were entitled to the same privileges. It was, therefore, most unjust to make their staple products the sport of capricious legislation. They all sympathized in the distress of the people of Ireland, and were anxious to relieve it; and he trusted that hon. Gentleman opposite would withdraw the slight opposition they had put forward, and give their support to the proposition of his right hon. Friend.
§ LORD G. BENTINCKThe late Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the anxieties of a sugar planter, has, I fear, overlooked the necessities of Ireland. As to what has fallen from some hon. Gentleman opposite, there was, I may remark, an understanding, I will not say a compact, that there was to be a truce to all political hostility, until the affairs of Ireland had been settled. Of course I mean the afflicting, and I trust only temporary, calamity under which that country now suffers. Religious or political questions, repeal of the Union, or equal privileges, and such considerations, must of course, be considered apart from the present exigency. But, Sir, although I am prepared, on account of this calamitous condition of Ireland, to make a truce with the Ministry at present, I am far from making any compromise of principle; but only say that, in order to alleviate the condition of the people of Ireland, our political 311 hostility is to be laid aside until the calamity which overhangs that country be dispelled. It is, however, only in a temporary character, that the admission of sugar into breweries and distilleries can be viewed as alleviating the condition of the Irish people. And in this view I am supported by the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Callaghan), who is opposed to its being a permanent measure. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer misrepresented, unintentionally I am sure, my hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire. My hon. Friend never said a word about the 1st of September as the limit to the temporary period of suspension. Neither myself nor my hon. Friend object that the measure should be passed for a year, if my noble Friend so think fit. And when my noble Friend introduces his measures for the permanent improvement of Ireland, he will be then at perfect liberty to introduce this as a permanent measure if he should think proper so to do. As to what has fallen from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Sunderland, respecting the colonial interest, I think we on this side of the House have shown quite as deep an interest in the welfare of the colonies as the hon. Gentleman. I think the hon. Gentleman was not one of those who by the course he took when the sugar duties were discussed last year, earned for himself the gratitude of the colonial interest, as I rejoice to know those about me did. Therefore, I say, Sir, with no sort of hostility towards the colonies, I ask for time for the agricultural interest to consider whether or no they will consent to such a measure as this being made permanent. When the right hon. Gentleman (the late Chancellor of the Exchequer) tells the House that Mr. Calvert, the brewer, stated before a Committee of the House of Commons that sugar could not advantageously enter into competition with malt, until the price of malt rose to 75s. or 80s.; the right hon. Gentleman forgets that since that evidence was given, the duty was reduced on colonial sugar from 24s. to 14s. per cwt., and, what we think of far greater importance, the duty upon slave-grown sugar and foreign sugar has been reduced from 3l. 3s. per cwt. to 14s. in the year 1851. An hon. Gentleman has asked why we do not tax our corn. Sir, I believe our corn, though not directly, is indirectly taxed at the present moment to a very large amount. We pay between 4,000,000l. and 5,000,000l. for tithe out of our agricultural produce. [Mr. M. GIBSON: Hear.] I think 312 the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester has forgotten when, in the ranks of the Conservatives, he represented the county of Suffolk, he was wont to maintain that tithes were a tax on agriculture, and I presume barley pays its share. In short, there can be no doubt but agricultural produce is taxed to a very high degree. I, for one, never would ask for any protection for agriculture, were there not special and heavy burdens which oppress it. But when the effect of those duties on malt, and the effects of this measure upon breweries are talked of, I must say that I think sugar is much more likely to come into competition with malt in distilleries than in breweries. I think the effect of the measure will be very much to reduce the price of spirits. I concur with the Chancellor of the Exchequer in this, that if the excise duty is to be put on any thing, spirits are precisely the articles on which it ought to be imposed, for I think a high tax on spirits and a low tax on beer would be beneficial to the morals of the people. Such a tax would be, therefore, in my mind, most justifiable. The effect of the reduction of duty on spirits in 1823 has been to double the consumption of ardent spirits, viz., from 13,000,000 of gallons then, to 26,000,000 of gallons at present. [Lord J. RUSSELL: Not so; illicit distillation was extensive before the reduction of duty, and the increase of population must be taken into account.] I think that any Gentleman who walks down Holborn must be struck with the number of gin palaces which meet his eye on both sides of the way. And most of these have sprung up since the duty was reduced; so that I think I am not far from the truth, when I say that the consumption has doubled since the reduction of the duty. And how does the case stand with regard to the consumption of beer? Why, Sir, that has not increased in the same proportion. The consumption of beer has not increased 30 per cent during the last twenty-five years, whereas the population has increased in a greater ratio than 30 per cent. I think it is highly questionable whether we should further reduce the duty on spirits, without making at the same time a similar, or a greater, reduction in the price of beer. The right hon. Gentleman opposite seemed desirous that rum should take the place of whisky and other spirits the native manufacture of Scotland; but I do not see why the Scotch people should not be permitted to continue to drink their 313 own favourite Glenlivat, which they think much preferable. I will not further enter into the question; but I hope, for the sake of maintaining good feeling, that we may, as far as possible, agree in some remedial measures for Ireland immediately; that my noble Friend will not, for the sake of the colonial interests (much as I regard them), press on this measure in its permanent shape. If so, it may interfere with the settlement of Irish affairs. He ought to recollect that this measure does not stand on the same footing with the other measures proposed; it is not a temporary alleviation of the sorrows of Ireland, but one which, in fact, is permanent, and in which Ireland has no interest. If it will prove injurious to any part of the empire, it will prove, at least, equally injurious to Ireland; and recollecting these things, and knowing that it is not a remedial measure, if the House accede to the proposition which I have made, it will obviate the necessity for further discussion or division.
§ MR. BORTHWICKwas opposed to the measure being temporary. An increased demand for sugar would be created, the cessation of which, after capital had been invested to supply it, would seriously injure the West Indian proprietors.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLI much regret that I must decline acceding to the proposition of my noble Friend opposite. My noble Friend, on the first day of the Session, demonstrated so much absence of party prejudice, and so much feeling with respect to the distresses of Ireland, that if I could without sacrifice of public duty—if I could by any other species of sacrifice in my power to make—meet his wishes, I should feel the greatest pleasure in complying with them. But since my noble Friend has made the proposition that the present measure should be temporary, and that Her Majesty's Government would afterwards be at liberty to make the measure permanent, I have considered what might be the consequence of that suggestion. We bring forward this proposal in any case with different views to those with which we brought forward the measures which I hope will be read a third time to-night; I mean the measures for the repeal of the corn and navigation laws. With respect to those measures, we say at once it is not our intention, in proposing them, to imply any disturbance of the corn duties or navigation laws, after the termination of the period to which it is 314 proposed the measures shall extend. Whatever other grounds may be put forth, that is our view. Therefore, so far as the interests are concerned with which those Bills interfere, they are merely temporary alterations of the law, and all concerned know that they are temporary. But with regard to the present measure, the situation in which we would be placed, if we were to adopt the course recommended by the noble Lord, would be very different. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has stated—and it is the opinion of the Government—that this measure, in all its leading features, should be taken as a permanent measure. If we were to accede to the proposal of the noble Lord, and pass the measure merely for a few months, or for a year, everybody would know that it was done with the intention, not of allowing the law to resume its present shape at the expiration of that period, but with the intention of introducing hereafter—it may be in this Session, or it may be in the next—an alteration in the very principle that the noble Lord has proposed. If we were to postpone the alteration for an entire year, there would be, as it appears to me, very great inconvenience indeed consequent upon such a proposition. There would, for instance, be very great disturbance and uncertainty in trade, and no adequate security to the colonies that their products would be ultimately admitted as now proposed into breweries and distilleries. If we were to bring in the permanent measure—say in the month of April or May—during the present Session, there would exist in the trade, from this time until the arrival of the periods in question, a thousand doubts and rumours—a thousand fears and apprehensions lest when the question was at length introduced, Parliament might perhaps disagree. The evils, therefore, of any such postponement would greatly counterbalance any possible advantage, by creating new causes of insecurity to every trade with which we might interfere. For these reasons I am compelled to adhere to the conclusion that it is better for the Parliament to decide at the present time (though most assuredly with no sort of haste to which the noble Lord can make any objection); but still to decide peremptorily, whether or not this shall be a permanent or a temporary change. It is in the power of the noble Lord at any time he pleases to take the discussion upon this point by proposing the insertion of separate clauses in the Bill, 315 proposing that the enactment shall be but of a temporary duration. If my noble Friend will adopt this course, the sense of the House upon the point can be ascertained with precision; for we are, I believe, on all sides agreed upon this, that the measure should at all events be adopted for a time. If the House should go with the noble Lord in the opinion that it would be better that the measure should be only a temporary one, though I should still hold to my opinion that any such arrangement would be subject to the inconvenience I have stated, still the decision of the House would be against me, and the noble Lord will have carried his point. But if, on the other hand, the House should agree with the Government that the measure ought to be permanent, then I think the question will have been settled in the most satisfactory manner—trade will not be disturbed, and every man who is engaged in mercantile pursuits can make his arrangements for purchasing sugars, for the use of breweries and distilleries, according as his own interests may require. I do not think the question of such a nature that it is likely to produce great excitement throughout the country. No doubt persons connected with the agricultural interests may think that their interests are injuriously affected; but I think that on consideration it will be found that their opinions are not very strongly founded, and that there is no occasion for any very serious apprehensions. At all events, on the point raised by the noble Lord, there can be a deliberate decision by the House; and we can take the time we may think necessary to enable him to bring forward for our consideration all the reasons which induce him to favour a mere temporary duration for the contemplated alteration. I have come to this conclusion with regret; for I am bound to say, with respect to the noble Lord and those who act with him, that I have every reason not only to be satisfied, but to be thankful to them for the disposition they have evinced.
LORD G. BENTINGKassured the House he had no desire to raise an excitement throughout the country upon this question. He accepted the suggestion of his noble Friend, and would be content at some later stage of this measure to take the sense of the House on the question, whether it should be of temporary or of permanent duration. He had no desire to tie up the colonial interests, but when he recollected how month after month they 316 had been tied up last Session, he certainly had not anticipated that the House would exhibit with respect to them any very hot or precipitate haste.
§ MR. ESCOTTobserved, that the noble Lord the Member for Lynn had dealt largely in political compacts; but he had shown to-night an indiscretion in disclosing a compact which in so experienced a politician struck him as being exceedingly remarkable. The noble Lord the Member for Lynn had declared himself to be the friend of the noble Lord at the head of the Government to a certain time, and only until then. He was the friend and ally of the latter noble Lord until the Irish question was settled (so ran the bond), and until all its difficulties were arranged. When that would be, he (Mr. Escott) did not pretend to foretell. But when that day had arrived, the House was to understand that the two noble Lords were no longer to be in that amicable intercourse which spectators now every night were delighted to witness. But there was another point in the speech of the noble Lord to which he would take the liberty of briefly alluding. With respect to the question before the House, he had made up his mind, that the proper course for the House to pursue was to vote for the remedial measures of the Government, and accept them as the best the Ministers could afford to pass, under the sanction of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn; and after these measures had been carried, let them by and by try to get better if they could. This was the view he took of the question, and for this reason he would not stop to point out what improvements might be introduced into the present measure, but would merely content himself with voting for it. But the noble Lord the Member for Lynn had let out another secret to-night. The farmers, it appeared, were sold again. Had we not been told at all the meetings of farmers held at the close of the last Parliamentary campaign, that a grand measure of compensation was to be awarded to the farmers for the great injury that had been inflicted on them by the abolition of protection? Had we not been told that the excise was to be attacked, and the malt tax repealed? Some scores of dinners had been given throughout the country at which the noble Lord had attended, and at which he held forth these brilliant expectations. Nay, more, he was informed that there was at this moment an Anti-Malt-Tax League, of which he had never been invited to become 317 a member; but of which, he dared say, the noble Lord was the president. But the noble Lord to-night implied that he would sell the farmers again. Exactly as in the last Session he had given them cause to suppose that a battle which was only sham, was carried on there under the pretence of supporting the agricultural interests; so now too, after advancing the great topic of compensation, and fixing their eyes in eager expectancy on it, he now gave it up, and by a side wind admitted that under existing circumstances it would not be exactly prudent to advocate the repeal of the malt tax at all. It was right the farmers should know what was going on, and understand that the great champion of the repeal of the malt tax had shelved the question until he had settled the Irish affairs. After that his apprehensions would be at an end; his hands would be disembarrassed, and he would be quite ready to carry the repeal.
§ LORD GEORGE BENTINCKsaid, that whatever compacts he might have made, he would never hesitate to express his anxious hope that the private friendship which existed between the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government and himself, and which had been of many years duration, might long continue uninterrupted. For his noble Friend's private, personal, and political honour he entertained the highest respect, and for his consistency also; and while he felt sure his noble Friend would give him credit for engaging in no sham battles, he trusted that he would join with him in the expression of a hope that when he was obliged to differ from the noble Lord on high political principles, he might be able to meet him in strong opposition without any interruption of their private friendship. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Escott) had said that he was at the head of a repeal of the malt-tax league. He would not stop to enter with him into a discussion upon that point; but he would tell the hon. and learned Gentleman, that he might rest in perfect security on the assurance which he now gave him, that whatever league he might belong to, unless he intended that the league at the head of which he might happen to be should be betrayed, he would never invite the hon. and learned Gentleman to become a member of it.
§ MR. BROTHERTONdid not wish to prolong the debate, he merely rose to offer a suggestion to the House. He understood the object of the Government measures was 318 to mitigate the distress of Ireland, by providing food for the people. It was proposed to convert sugar, which might now be considered a necessary of life, into spirits and beer, in order that the barley might be used as food. From returns on the Table of the House, it appeared that 27,000,000 gallons of spirits were annually consumed, being at the rate of one gallon for every man, woman, and child, in the United Kingdom. In addition to which 6,000,000 gallons of wine, and about 400,000,000 gallons of ale, were consumed. Now, the cost of these united, amounted to between 45,000,000l. and 50,000,000l. sterling. Upwards of forty millions of bushels of malt were charged with duty for home consumption last year. Thus, the produce of two or three millions of acres of land might as well be thrown into the sea, for in his opinion intoxicating liquor produced nothing but poverty, crime, disease, and wretchedness. It was used as an argument for the repeal of the corn law, that if the poor man had to lay out an additional sum in the purchase of food, he had less to expend in clothing and other necessaries. And so it was in this case; if the people spent their wages in drink, they would have less to spare for clothing. The more they expended in articles of manufacture, the better it would be for the home trade. Of 20s. expended in spirits, the amount paid for labour was only about 8d.; but if 20s. were laid out in articles of manufacture, from 6s. to 10s. went into the pocket of the artisan. Now, if the House would use their moral influence in encouraging abstinence societies, and discontinuing intemperance, they would do more to ameliorate the condition of the people, increase their comforts, and elevate their morals, than by any other measure whatsoever. People were very apt to complain of bad government, but it appeared that they voluntarily taxed themselves to the extent of 50,000,000l. sterling.
§ MR. FERRANDSir, I have heard the hon. and learned Member for Winchester, to-night, charge the noble Lord the Member for Lynn with having directly attempted to sell the farmers. At the last general election, the hon. and learned Member marched into Winchester at the head of a grand procession of farmers, pronouncing himself an uncompromising protectionist, ready to fight their battle on the floor of this House, and to die in defence of their interests if necessary. Sir, the hon. Member came to this House, and 319 made a grand speech upon the floor of this House in favour of protection. I assisted the hon. and learned Gentleman to correct that speech, before he circulated it amongst his supporters. [Mr. ESCOTT: No, no, no.] I repeat, I did—I will prove it. I was one day standing in Mr. Ollivier's shop, 59, Pall Mall, when the hon. and learned Member came in. He asked me, "What did you think of my speech the other night?" I told him it was a grand speech—a great piece of oratory—but that I did not know how the Winchester farmers would ever be able to construe his long Latin quotations. He made many alterations in that speech, and that it might create the greater sensation amongst the electors of Winchester, he had it published and circulated at his own expense. I quoted passages from the speech in the spring of the year 1846, as may be in the recollection of many hon. Members around me. It was a most powerful and eloquent speech, and one which the hon. and learned Member would find some difficulty in now answering, But enough of it. I as distinctly charge the hon. Member with selling his constituents, as he has charged the noble Lord with attempting to sell the farmers; and I tell him it is my opinion, that a Member of this House who will sell his constituents, will not hesitate to sell himself.
§ MR. ESCOTTwould say but a very few words in reply to the remarkable attack that had been made upon him by the hon. Member for Knaresborough, for the position in which he stood in relation to his constituents was a personal matter which on two occasions had been deliberately discussed in the proper place out of doors, and he did not feel himself justified to occupy the attention of the House with it. However, as a serious charge had been made against him, he would deal with it. He felt, and he had never denied it, that the corn-law question was one in respect to which he had pursued such a course as might fully warrant his constituents in pronouncing a judgment adverse to the vote which he had recorded. Feeling this very sensibly, he took two opportunities to meet his constituents in full public meeting, convened by public advertisement. The first meeting was pending the question of the corn law, and before it had been decided by that House; the second meeting was held at the conclusion of the last Session of Parliament, when he entered into a full explanation of his entire 320 conduct. At the first of these meetings, which was a very crowded one, only three of his constituents took exception to his conduct. The rest of the meeting to a man declared their approbation of the course he had pursued. He told them then, and he stated it again at the end of the Session, that if they did not approve of his proceedings, he was ready to resign their representation. The second meeting was even much more numerous than the first; it was, perhaps, the largest that had ever been held in the city of Winchester; and on that occasion his constituents, without a single exception, declared that he had done his duty to them in voting for the measure. Really, after that, he did not think that the noble Lord, or any body else, should accuse him of having betrayed his constituents. ["Oh!"] It was only the hon. Member for Knaresborough who cried "oh!" No other man in the House cried "oh!" but himself. With respect to a certain speech, to which allusion had been made, he wished to have it expressly understood he had never, for the purposes of that speech, or for any other purpose, ever called in the critical assistance of the hon. Member; and if he ever should feel it necessary to correct a speech, the hon. Member would not be the critic to whom he would apply. The hon. Member had talked of his speech in terms of exaggerated eulogy. It was not for him to descant upon the merits of that speech; but he had frequently listened to the hon. Member and some of his Friends, and without wishing to leave himself open to a charge of overweening vanity, he would venture to assert, that if they had studied that composition a little more attentively, their own oratory would not have lost anything.
§ Resolutions agreed to. To be reported.