HC Deb 26 February 1847 vol 90 cc544-8
MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORD

moved as an Amendment to the Motion, that the Speaker do leave the Chair, for the House to go into a Committee of Supply— An humble Address to Her Majesty, praying that She would be graciously pleased to authorise and direct that such ships of Her Majesty's Navy, as can be spared from the regular duty, should be applied, under such regulations as Her Majesty might deem advisable, to the accommodation of Merchants in the conveying of corn and provisions from Foreign Countries into the ports of the United Kingdom. The hon. Member observed, that starvation was extending to all parts of Ireland, and that want of shipping to import food caused this extension. In America, the produce of the last harvest was 700,000,000 bushels. There was disposable for foreign countries about 400,000,000 bushels, equal to 50,000,000 quarters, of which, probably, about 17,000,000 might be obtained for this country. If food was provided for 4,000,000 of people, and each of those 4,000,000 required, upon an average, 1 lb. of Indian meal per day for 200 days, it would require 13,500,000 bushels, or about 1,500,000 quarters only. The want of shipping to convey food to this country, raised the prices to an enormous amount. In New York, the freight of corn last year was 8d. per bushel; this year it was 1s. 10d. In New Orleans, it was 10d. last year; and 1s. 10½d. now. At Constantinople, last year, freight was 7s. per quarter; this year 15s. At Odessa, 7s. last year; 16s. 2d. this year. At Venice, 6s. last year; 13s. this year. At Alexandria, 6s. last year; 19s. this year. An enormous increase of prices arose from this enormous cost of freight. Corn could be bought on the Danube at 30s. per quarter, whilst the price at Liverpool, last week, was 72s. 6d. Ships were not to be had. He found that a mercantile house had sent an order to Baltimore for flour, with an unlimited power as to price; and two letters had been received from Baltimore by this firm, stating that no ships were to be had in which to send over the flour. The ships had been taken off by France and Belgium; there had been 400 at Marseilles the last fortnight. All grain was 50 per cent higher in our own ports than in the ports of America. These were the reasons which induced him to hope that the Government would in some manner apply our ships of war to the conveyance of corn from foreign parts. He was as unwilling as any one to interfere with the principles of trade: but there were periods of calamity when such principles must give way. He would propose, not that the Government should itself employ the ships, but that they should place ships at the disposal of private merchants for the conveyance of grain from foreign ports, receiving tenders from merchants. It would, undoubtedly, be dangerous to interfere, without judgment and discretion, with the enterprise of private traders; but measures, he thought, might be devised for the purpose. If Ireland were attacked by a foreign enemy, ships of war would be sent against that foreign enemy; and why should they not be employed to relieve her from that greater enemy by which she was now invaded? Her Majesty's fleet was paid for by the people, and the people should have the use of it. The very reasons which had induced the Government to suspend the navigation laws, would justify this measure; the very same principle applied to both. There was no impediment to plenty in this country other than the want of means of conveying to the distressed people of this country the produce of other countries; and we must do, by means of our ships of war, what we could not do by other means. He did not bring forward this proposition in a hostile spirit; he gave the Government credit for their exertions to relieve the distress in Ireland; and he hoped they would adopt his proposition, and that they would endeavour to devise means by which the ships of the Navy might be applied as he suggested.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

said: The question embodied in the present Motion was brought under the consideration of the Government some time ago, and on the whole, after some consideration, we think it more advisable not to adopt the proposition. I would say, in the first place (perhaps the hon. Gentleman has already got the information), that a great number of steam vessels and other ships are now employed in the relief service between this country and Ireland. The number of those vessels at present amounts to thirty steam vessels, twelve sailing vessels, and five depôt ships. With regard to the question which the hon. Gentleman has raised, namely, that of sending vessels of war into foreign ports to obtain supplies, I think the hon. Gentleman has not gone into a correct calculation of how much could be done by Her Majesty's Navy. The hon. Gentleman has talked of 1,500,000 quarters coming from America: and that, I am afraid, is an estimate beyond the truth. The quantity that could be brought in ships of war would be a small proportion indeed of the estimate he has made. In the first place, it would be necessary to fit up those ships of war in a manner totally different from their present state, and the expense and time that would be taken up in that operation would be considerable. The fitting up of the Belleisle cost 19,000l.; it takes a considerable time before vessels of war can be so fitted up; and of course it would take similar time and similar expense to adapt them again to the service of the Navy. If we had ten thousand tons of shipping so employed, it would be as much as we could expect; and they would not bring more than about fifty thousand quarters, so that no result could be obtained that would be at all adequate to the expense that would be caused. It would have one certain consequence—namely, that when it was once known and proclaimed that the vessels of Her Majesty's fleet would be employed in this service, it would be a great discouragement to the merchant service, and possibly prevent them from sending ships to foreign countries; and I think you must expect greater efforts from individual enterprise than could possibly be made by Her Majesty's ships, even after some months had been lost in fitting them up at great expense. My own calculation in last September was, that not less than from twelve to fifteen hundred ships would be required in a service of this kind. Of course, if you discourage the merchant service by proclaiming that the ships of Her Majesty's Navy will be so employed, you must expect that there will be a less number of merchant ships in the ports of America and at Odessa, and freights, instead of being lower, may be considerably higher than at the present moment. The hon. Gentleman does not know the difficulty of bringing food from the United States to this country. It is not alone the difficulty of getting ships at New York to bring it here, but there is also the difficulty of conveying the Indian corn to New York, especially that grown in the Western States. The Indian corn which costs but seven-pence a bushel in some of those remote States, costs several shillings before it ar-arrives at any port of embarkation. And while there is a great demand, there is an insufficiency of boats to bring the corn down the Mississippi and the other rivers, on the banks of which the corn grows. There are not boats enough, so that it would be not sufficient merely to have ships for the purpose. But the great objection is that, after an expensive effort, and considerable loss of time, it would not at all produce a result which would be commensurate with that expense and loss of time, and that you would thereby give great discouragement to private enterprise. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, that if I thought the use of the Navy would be beneficial, and tend to cheapen food in this country, I should be as ready to direct the employment of the Navy in this service as to direct its employment in the conveyance of food between this country and Ireland. I trust, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman will be satisfied with this explanation, and that he will not press the matter further.

MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORD

observed, that the noble Lord had misunderstood him on one point, and that was, with reference to the supply from America. His impression was, that seventeen millions of quarters could be spared in America, and he thought that about one million and a half of quarters could be supplied to Ireland. The hon. Gentleman then withdrew his Motion.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

wished to mention a proposition that had been made to him by some of the Society of Friends who had been engaged most largely in giving relief to Ireland. They stated to him their belief that contributions were being raised in America to purchase corn, and they asked to have a ship of war for its eonveyance placed at their disposal. The Government declined a literal compliance with that proposal; but they said if the corn was subscribed for and purchased, the Government would be ready to pay the freight for its conveyance.

MR. KERR

inquired if some system of emigration could not be connected with the introduction of foreign corn. If persons, for instance, were allowed to go abroad in men of war, or in any other way that would suit the Government, a great number of people might go that could not be supported in Ireland, and the ships could bring back a return cargo of corn.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

was not disposed to give any direct encouragement to the scheme which the hon. Member proposed. He would remind the hon. Member, that by the Irish poor law there was, in certain cases, a power given to supply funds for emigration. With regard to vessels bringing corn to this country, comprising foreign vessels, he would remark that, under the Act for the suspension of the navigation laws, those foreign vessels would be at liberty to carry out passengers, but they could not take merchandise. Those vessels would not be affected by the navigation laws, provided they confined themselves to passengers.

Amendment negatived.