THE ROYAL ARSENAL, WOOLWICH. (Hansard, 23 February 1847)

§ MR. T. DUNCOMBE
rose to move— 442 For a Copy of the Evidence taken before the Court of Inquiry, instituted in the month of April, 1845, by the Board of Ordnance, at the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, to investigate Charges preferred by Daniel Toner against William Jones, deputy storekeeper, together with a Copy of the Charges and the Report thereon; also, a Copy of the Charge preferred and the Evidence given against Daniel Toner, late a labourer in the Royal Arsenal, Woolwich, by Mr. Reed, a clerk in the storekeeper's department, before Lord Bloomfield, Colonel Blayney, and Mr. Cheetham, in August, 1845, with their Report thereon. His object in moving for these papers, for withholding of which he could see no good reason, was twofold. In the first place, he wanted to show the mode in which the moral treatment of convicts at Woolwich was conducted; and these papers, he believed, would show, as those convicts had on several occasions told him, that in one hour they had committed more robberies for the officers and clerks of the Royal Arsenal than they had ever committed in their whole lives before; and that instead of being likely to be reclaimed there, they were only encouraged in their evil practices. On a former occasion he had moved for an inquiry into the treatment of the convicts generally in the hulks at Woolwich. That, however, had been refused, and he was now compelled to make the present Motion in order to get at a part of that information. His second object in moving for these papers was to show the abuses that took place in that department of the Ordnance at Woolwich; and he certainly could not understand why the Government should refuse those papers, unless for the purpose of screening some of the delinquencies of that department. Daniel Toner had been the chief prosecutor against one of the officers in that department, and having succeeded in proving all his charges, that officer had been dismissed. From that period Toner and all those who gave evidence against their superior officers, became marked men, and were made the subjects of persecution; whilst several of the officers against whom the charges had been proved, had been promoted. He trusted the House would grant these papers; for there was, in his opinion, nothing more important than that such a class of witnesses should be protected when they dared to expose a general system of fraud and pilfering being carried on in a publie department of the State. It was his intention, should he obtain those papers, to take ulterior proceedings upon them; but what those proceed- 443 ings would be, he was not at that moment prepared to say.

§ COLONEL ANSON
said, his objection to furnish the first class of papers moved for, which related to the case of Mr. Jones, the deputy storekeeper, rested entirely upon public grounds. The facts of the case were not at all such as had been stated by the hon. Member; and if the hon. Member had taken the trouble to have read the papers which he had brought down to the House on purpose to show him, the hon. Member would have seen how unnecessary it was to have troubled the House with his statement, or to have proposed to put the country to the expense of printing those documents; for there were not to be found ten words in the inquiry into Mr. Jones's case which bore at all upon the treatment of convicts in the arsenal at Woolwich. No objection had been found with Toner for making the charges which he had made against Jones: those charges had been found to be correct—Jones had been punished in consequence, and there was an end to the matter. He had no objection, however, to give the evidence in Toner's case. It was not very likely that Toner, who, immediately he entered the arsenal, pulled out his pocket-book and commenced taking notes, with the view of informing against his superior officers, and who had so continued to spy until he found something of which he could lay hold, should meet with very much sympathy from those towards whom he so acted. Accordingly, when Toner infringed the rules of the arsenal, and, after being warned, repeated the offence, his conduct was reported, and he was eventually dismissed. Upon the decision which the court came to, he thought no reflection could be cast, although he did not mean to say but it would have been better had Toner been present before his judges. He believed, however, that the decision was a perfectly just one; and had he been a member of the court he should have concurred in their views. The charge against Jones for having appropriated some wood or shavings belonging to the arsenal, had certainly been proved; but he had been many years a meritorious officer of that establishment, and had since received a very handsome appointment in a private establishment, which was sufficient to prove the respectability of his character.

§ MR. HUME
had taken a great deal of trouble to investigate the matter, and he believed that his hon. Friend's statement 444 respecting Toner was substantially correct. He would put it to the Attorney General whether this man ought not to have been heard in his own defence? He had exposed a system of pilfering—he would not call it robbery—which had been going on at the dockyards; and upon his evidence the deputy storekeeper had been convicted and ordered to pay 217l., on account of stores which had been improperly appropriated. He was, therefore, surprised to hear the gallant Officer, as the head of a department, express such an opinion as the gallant Officer had expressed respecting this man's conduct. If he were at the head of a department, he should wish that every man in it should observe the other; and he should think the department very wrong for punishing them for it. With regard to the first papers, he was not prepared to say to what extent they would be necessary for his hon. Friend's purpose. He (Mr. Hume) had sent down to Woolwich to ascertain the facts; and he was able to say, that no man was worse treated than Toner. If the general system of pilfering that prevailed was not put an end to, the public stores could not be protected, and they might as well shut the doors. He hoped a commission would be issued to inquire into the whole administration of the department.

§ CAPTAIN BOLDERO
said, that when he was in the Ordnance Department, Toner visited him, and told him a long tale of his grievances, and asked his opinion of the case; and he told him to go back to Woolwich, to his department, and if the annoyance he complained of continued, he might lay the case before the Master General of the Ordnance. He said, he feared he should be mulcted of his day's pay; and in two days after, he told the authority at Woolwich, that in his opinion the man ought not to lose his pay for his absence on that occasion. He stated that, to show that there was no bad feeling against Toner. With respect to his dismissal, he could not give any particulars, as the dismissal was not his act.

§ MR. T. DUNCOMBE
replied, he was surprised to see such tenderness for Mr. Jones, on the part of those in power, though he had been fourteen years engaged in practices complained of; while poor Toner had no pity shown him, but was left to starve. It was a misfortune that there were not many more Toners in the public service, to show up the delinquencies of their superior officers. He should not be satisfied until 445 a public inquiry had taken place into the subject. It was for that purpose he wanted the papers in question; and, if he stood alone, he would press his Motion on the House.