HC Deb 15 December 1847 vol 95 cc1176-81
MR. BROTHERTON

rose to move— That when any new business is brought on after Twelve o'clock at night, if it be moved and seconded That the Debate on such Question be adjourned, Mr. Speaker shall immediately declare the Debate adjourned, without putting the Question to the vote. The hon. Member said, this was a sanitary Motion. The object which he had in view was the preservation of the health of Members of that House. He declared that he frequently moved the adjournment of the House from consideration for the Speaker's health, though, judging from the difficulty which he found in catching the right hon. Gentleman's eye upon such occasions, he was disposed to believe that the Speaker did not feel as much interest on that point as he did. He was sometimes taunted with not having acted impartially in his character of adjourner of the House; but if he had shown any partiality it was to his political opponents. It appeared by returns presented to the House that in 1842 the House sat 117 days, and 125 hours after midnight; in 1843, the House sat 119 days, and. 105½ hours after midnight; in 1844, the House sat 119 days, and sixty-nine hours after midnight; in 1845, days of sitting 119, hours after midnight 96; in 1846, days of sitting 139, hours after midnight 77¾; in 1847, days of sitting 121, hours after midnight 71¾. Comparing 1842 with 1847, it would be seen that the present Administration, to which he was favourable, had had the opportunity of proceeding with business during fewer hours after midnight than the Administration which existed in 1842, to which he was opposed. His Motion would apply simply to questions which might be brought on after midnight. He had often seen several hours after midnight wasted in discussions on Irish police and Scotch fisheries, which were of no use whatever. He was in favour of the Legislature conducting their proceedings by daylight. Some persons were fond of appealing to "the wisdom of our ancestors," and it was certainly one proof of their wisdom that they did the work of legislation by daylight. In every part of the Continent, and in America also, the legislative assemblies sat during the day. Let the House only consider the advantage of sitting from twelve till six o'clock on Wednesdays. Not only was there more business done than on other days, but it was done in a more orderly manner, and there was always a full attendance of Members. Formerly the House used to be counted out on Wednesdays. He was sure that if the House met every day at twelve o'clock, it would promote the health of Members and the convenience of the House.

DR. BOWRING

seconded the Motion. His hon. Friend formerly used to exercise despotic power, and adjourn all debates after twelve o'clock at night; but of late it had been found out that he was made of squeezable materials, and his resolution had given way. He hoped that his hon. Friend's authority would be restored, and that he would exercise it even tyrannically, if need were, in order put a stop to debates after twelve o'clock.

MR. EWART'S

only objection to the Motion of his hon. Friend was, that it did not go far enough. The Motion which he himself had placed on the paper as an Amendment to that of the hon. Member for Salford consulted the valuable health of the Speaker more carefully than the Motion of his hon. Friend. He wished that all the debates of the House should take place in the daytime. He maintained that business was far better done on Wednesday than on any other day of the week; and none of those scenes occurred which frequently took place in the evening. He contended that the present system was not an economy but a prodigality of time, because, between the hours of six and nine o'clock in the evening, any Member could get up and speak as long as he chose, uncontrolled by the House. The present system was a premium on extraneous and unnecessary speeches. It was said that the Government gained more time for the transaction of public business by the present arrangement. A Member, however, of the late Government had assured him that he could give far more time to business if the House sat during the day, and promised to support a Motion to that effect; but when the time for voting came, the hon. Gentleman was under other influences and did not vote for his (Mr. Ewart's) temperate Motion. He proposed that Committees should sit from ten to twelve, and then six hours of debate would be quite enough. He submitted that there was great impropriety in taking away a man from his family in the evening. At the same time, though he entertained these views, he should not press his Motion to a division against the Motion of the hon. Member for Salford, and on the present occasion he would content himself with giving his cordial support to his hon. Friend.

SIR G. GREY

rose to say, that he was sorry that he could not agree to the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Salford. The hon. Gentleman said, that this was the very minimum of reform; but he must remind the House that it would lead to a very great alteration in its practice. The Motion, if successful, would give power to any hon. Member to adjourn a debate, contrary to the opinion of the House itself that it should proceed. He thought that his hon. Friend had rendered very useful services by interposing to adjourn debates when no good was likely to be occasioned by a protracted discussion; but it would be extremely inconvenient to take away all discretion from the House. Suppose, for instance, the debate in which they had that day been engaged had taken place on any other day of the week, and twelve o'clock at night had arrived when only two or three names were wanting to complete the Committee; it would have been competent for any two hon. Members to have got up, and to have postponed the debate till a future day fie thought that the public convenience would be better consulted by leaving a discretion with the House, than by adopting a rigid rule in all cases, the more so as the practice of late debating was checked by the watchful care of his hon. Friend. He must say also, that though he thought the morning sittings on Wednesday very useful, he did not think that it was practicable, if Committees were to sit, for the House to meet in the daytime on every day in the week. No analogy could be drawn between the House of Commons here and the Chamber of Deputies in France, as the amount of the business transacted was so very different.

LORD G. BENTINCK

quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. They really wanted an additional day in the week; it was hardly possible to get through the business as it was. He was afraid that the abstemious habits of the hon. Member for Salford—his vegetable and water diet would prevent him from taking a lesson from the old convivial song— The only true way to lengthen the day, Is to steal a few hours from the night, my boys.

MR. BROTHERTON, in reply, regretted he was obliged to say that he once had some power, but now he had none. It was imagined that he could always move an adjournment of the debate when he pleased; but this was a great mistake. He would always be vigilant, if he could always be sure of the Speaker's looking at him at the proper time. He should certainly think it his duty to take the sense of the House upon his Motion.

SIR H. WILLOUGHBY

suggested, with a view to save the time of the House, that no Member should speak more than half-an-hour, or make more than fifty quotations or references to speeches or books.

The House divided:—Ayes 33; Noes 57: Majority 24.

List of the AYES.
Arkwright, G. Chaplin, W. J.
Boyd, J. Drummond, H.
Busfeild, W. Duncan, G.
Callaghan, D. Duncuft, J.
Evans, J. Smith, J. B.
Ewart, W. Strickland, Sir G.
Fordyce, A. D. Tennent, R. J.
Gregson, S. Thicknesse, R. A.
Heald, J. Thompson, Col.
Heywood, J. Walmsley, Sir J.
Moffatt, G. Wawn, J. T.
Pilkington, J. Westhead, J. P.
Robinson, G. R. Willcox, B. M.
Salwey, Col. Williams, J.
Sandars, G. Willoughby, Sir H.
Scholefield, W. TELLERS.
Seely, C. Brotherton, J.
Sibthorp, Col. Bowring, Dr.
List of the NOES.
Archdall, Capt. M. Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.
Arundel and Surrey, Earl of Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Greene, T.
Baines, M. T. Grenfell, C. W.
Barrington, Visct. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Bellew, R. M. Heathcote, Sir W.
Bennet, P. Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Bentinck, Lord G. Keppel, hon. G. T.
Birch, Sir T. B. Langston, J. H.
Bouverie, E. P. Lindsay, hon. Col.
Bramston, T. W. Masterman, J.
Bruce, Lord E. Melgund, Visct.
Cabbell, B. B. Parker, J.
Clay, J. Pinney, W.
Clive, Visct. Raphael, A.
Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B. Richards, R.
Coope, O. E. Spooner, R.
Corry, rt. hon. H. L. Talfourd, Serj.
Craig, W. G. Thompson, Ald.
Deedes, W. Thornely, T.
Deering, J. P. Vane, Lord H.
Divett, E. Vivian, J. H.
Duckworth, Sir J. T. B. Waddington, H. S.
Duncombe, hon. O. Wilson, J.
Du Pre, C. G. Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Wood, W. P.
Ferguson, Sir R. A. Wyvill, M.
Floyer, J.
Fortescue, C. TELLERS.
Fuller, A. E. Tufnell, H.
Gaskell, J. M. Hill, Lord M.

The House adjourned at five minutes to Six o'clock.