§ On the Order of the Day being read for the House to go into a Committee of Supply,
MR. WILLIAMScomplained that taking the Miscellaneous Estimates first was a departure from ordinary course of procedure, and a very inconvenient one. The Estimates had only been delivered at his House on Saturday; he had not seen them till this morning, and he had not yet had an opportunity of reading them. He had never known an instance in which the Miscellaneous Estimates were taken before the Army and Navy Estimates. In a case where there were several hundred different items to go through, it was a perfect farce to place them in the hands of Members only a few hours before the discussion.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, that the reason for taking the Miscellaneous Estimates first was that, at this advanced season of the year, it was important that the Miscellaneous Estimates should be voted without delay. He had no objection, however, to 1204 postpone the consideration of all the Estimates on which there was any increase, difference, or novelty as compared to former years.
LORD J. RUSSELLdid not think the Government had treated the House very fairly in this matter. It was usual always to begin with the Navy Estimates; and he remembered that on one occasion an hon. Member opposite objected because the Army Estimates were proposed to be taken before the Navy Estimates; and he induced the Government of the day to alter their course, and take the Navy Estimates first. It was now proposed to postpone not only the Navy Estimates, but the Army Estimates and Ordnance Estimates also, in order to bring forward the Miscellaneous Estimates. He must say that this was taking advantage of the confidence of the House in a way very unusual. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War had, in the course of the Session, proposed several items of the Army and Navy Estimates at one o'clock in the morning, and they had been allowed to pass without discussion. It was certainly not expected, when he obtained those votes of credit, that when the time for regular discussion came, they would be postponed without any previous notice. This was certainly no inducement for the House to allow the Government to abuse their confidence in this way in future.
§ SIR R. PEELsaid, there was no wish whatever on the part of Government to take the House by surprise; and, if it was preferred, the House might take the Civil Contingencies, and then the Ordnance Estimates. The reason why he did not suggest the Army Estimates was, that an hon. Member (Captain Layard) who had two Notices on the Paper with reference to them, was not present.
§ House in Committee.
§ MR. CARDWELLproposed, that a sum not exceeding 20,000l. should be granted to Her Majesty for defraying the charges of the Civil Contingencies.
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, that he had in former years objected to the sums inserted in the Estimates for the conveyance of colonial bishops from this country to their sees abroad; and he had particularly objected to the sum of 600l. for the conveyance of the Bishop of Jerusalem. In the present Estimates he found the name of a new bishop—the Bishop of Tripoli,—whom he had never heard of before, nor did he know to what religious sect he belonged; 1205 but, whether he belonged to the Church of England or not, he equally objected to the sum put down in the Estimates for his conveyance from this country; he thought the people to whom they were sent ought to pay the expense of their conveyance. He also objected to the sum of 350l. charged for a pleasure excursion to Sir Stratford Canning, who had one of the highest diplomatic salaries. He thought the sum enormous, especially considering that he enjoyed the use of one of Her Majesty's ships at the same time. There was another item of which he complained, and that was the sum of 3,076l. for the expenses of the funeral of her Royal Highness the Princess Sophia. It was understood that the Princess Sophia left behind her considerable property; and he thought the expenses of her funeral ought to have been paid from that source, and not have been thrown upon the public. He also found the sum of 2,151l. put down for expenses connected with the visits of foreign princes to this country, which he thought too much. There were also two items to which he objected—the one of 5,441l. connected with the Commission of Inquiry into the Tenure of Land in Ireland; and the other, the sum of 10,000l. in connexion with the Inquiry for Relieving the Distress in Ireland. He thought it would have been much better if the latter sum had been applied at once for the purchase of food for the people of that country.
§ MR. CARDWELLsaid, that the charge for the passages of foreign and colonial bishops arose in this way. It was considered proper that they should be taken out in Her Majesty's ships of war; and it not being considered right that the commanders should make out a bill against each bishop they took out, the moderate charge for their passage was transferred to the public account. As to the expenses incurred in entertaining foreign princes, the charges defrayed by Her Majesty on this head never came before the public; but there were certain travelling expenses necessarily incurred, which came properly under the head of a public charge. With respect to the charge for the Commission of Inquiry into the state of the potato crop in Ireland, the sum mentioned was transferred to the Lord Lieutenant, in order that he should take all necessary steps for averting, if possible, or, at all events, mitigating the effects of the calamity which threatened that country.
§ MR. HUMEthought that the Colonies should be left to regulate their own fiscal duties. They should be given to understand that, if they exceeded the means at their own disposal, the deficiency should not be supplied at the expense of this country. Among the items there was one of which he highly approved—a reward of 10l. for saving a person's life; this sum, however, was a miserable pittance. He objected to the fees charged upon conferring dignities, such as 360l. for making Sir W. Parker a baronet; and 91l. for making another man a bishop. It was in the power of the Government to put an end to those fees, and he called on them to do so. There was a sum of 322l. for the attendance of shorthand writers at political meetings in Ireland. This looked too much like a system of espionage. If no evil resulted from language, however strong, Government might have patience—they need not in so expensive a way employ spies. He deprecated everything that tended to lessen public confidence in the Government. He wished to know whether the 10,000l. stated as expenses of a recent Commission in Ireland were for inquiry or for relief?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERBoth for inquiry and relief. A great portion of that sum was in aid of private subscriptions. As to fees for dignities, the great majority of them were carried to public account; that was only a mode of raising a contribution for the expenses of the establishment. Another portion went to the law officers of the Crown. It was necessary that the commissions of Colonial Governors should be framed under legal advice. He saw no reason to change the course which had hitherto been pursued in that respect.
§ SIR C. NAPIERinquired whether any progress had been made by the Commissioners for constructing harbours of refuge on the south-east coast?
§ CAPTAIN CARNEGIEinformed the hon. and gallant Member that the Commissioners had made a report, which had been submitted to the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but no steps had yet been taken to carry it into effect.
§ MR. A. CHAPMANobjected to sinking 3,000,000l. in the sea at Dover; in order to make there a harbour of refuge, which would, in his opinion, be wholly useless to merchant ships and vessels of war.
§ Vote agreed to.
1207§ The next Vote was a sum of 121,578l. to defray the expense of building, and the lighting and repairing certain Public Departments.
MR. WILLIAMSobjected to the large grants which from time to time had been given for Marlborough House; and he thought, considering the large allowance which the Queen Dowager received from the country, that it would have been unnecessary to lay out anything towards the repairs or embellishment of that establishment. He objected, also, to the cathedrals of Scotland being repaired at the public expense; and he should propose that the Vote be reduced by 5,000l. for repairs of the cathedral of Glasgow, and 1,210l. for the repairs of the abbey of Dunfermline. He should take the sense of the Committee on the question.
§ MR. HUMEobjected to the charge of 100l. for the external repairs of Marlborough House, on the ground that, having been granted to the Queen Dowager absolutely for her life, she ought, according to the rule in such cases, to keep up the building herself, especially as shortly before she came into possession, 40,000l. had been expended at the public charge in putting it into repair.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERstated the uniform rule to be, that the external repairs of the Queen Dowager's jointure-house were defrayed by the Crown.
§ MR. AGLIONBYsaid, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had answered every question but this — was it, or was it not a rule, where a house or a palace was granted to an individual for a limited period, that in that case the external repairs were done by the public; but that, in the case where the grant was for life, the expense was borne by the individual?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that the point just mooted was entirely beside the question; because what he said was, that in all cases of Queen Dowagers the invariable rule was, not only to give the income, but a palace, or house equivalent to a palace, the external repairs of which were defrayed at the public expense. [Mr. HUME: Why did they not defray the internal repairs?] The object was, to keep the building from falling into a state of dilapidation; and the uniform practice had been, to defray this expense out of the public revenue. The internal repairs stood on an entirely different footing.
§ Vote agreed to.
1208§ On the Question that a sum of 15,558l. be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of providing temporary accommodation for the Houses of Parliament, Committee-rooms, &c.,
MR. WILLIAMScondemned the system of ventilation adopted in the Committee-rooms, where Members sat from day to day, with a large fire on one side, and cold air rushing in from 10,000 holes on the other. It was perfectly impossible for any one with safety to sit there. He had no faith in Dr. Reid's system: it was all quackery. Not a single building had he ventilated where the greatest complaints had not been made. Year after year, they were expending large sums of money in order to prepare the new Houses for their accommodation; he wished to know when it was probable they would be fit for occupation?
§ MR. CARDWELLwas afraid he could not give the hon. Gentleman any distinct assurance as to the precise time when the New Houses would be ready, but the utmost exertions were being used for the purpose of expediting their completion. The Committee had also been engaged in investigating the advantages of Dr. Reid's system of ventilation.
§ MR. PROTHEROEthought they were all deeply indebted to Dr. Reid for his success in ventilating that House. Speaking only for himself, he must say, the air was peculiarly agreeable. He did not say the atmosphere was a pure one; but that could not be wondered at when they remembered that it was fed on one side by the burial-ground of St. Margaret's, and on the other by what was little better than a great sewer—the river Thames.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next Vote was 72,400l. to defray the expense for one year of the works of the New Houses of Parliament.
§ MR. HUME, seeing a charge of 2,400l. for fresco paintings, wished to know whether any general plan had been adopted for decorating the buildings, and what estimate had been made of the amount to be expended in this branch of art?
§ SIR R. PEELbelieved there were two or three compartments in the House of Lords to be appropriated to fresco paintings. The Victoria Gallery was under the consideration of the Commission; but they wished, before they committed themselves to any general plan, to see the effect in those two or three compartments which had been dedicated to frescos.
§ SIR R. PEELdid not think the House of Commons would afford the same scope for fresco decoration as the House of Lords. There had been a Committee of the Commission for the purpose of selecting subjects from history for fresco paintings; the Committee had made a report; but the Commission had not yet come to a final decision.
§ MR. HUMEwould be sorry if the House of Lords should be more ornamented either by fresco paintings or statues than the House of Commons.
§ SIR R. PEELcould not share in that jealousy. As a Member of the House of Commons he hoped convenience would be consulted rather than ornament. Much must depend on the form of the buildings and the numbers to be accommodated. It must be recollected that the House of Peers was the apartment in which Her Majesty opened Parliament; and the height and whole character of that apartment was more fit for decoration than the House of Commons. The former House of Lords had its walls covered with tapestry; he did not think extravagant ornament would be at all suited to the British House of Commons. Still it should be handsome and magnificent. The object of the Commission was to encourage the fine arts, and they had no wish that any space really available should be thrown away. The hon. Member for Montrose was very jealous of any distinctive ornaments in the House of Peers; would the hon. Gentleman like to have a red robe with ermine on it?
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Several other Votes were agreed to,
§ The House adjourned at half past Twelve o'clock.