FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL. (Hansard, 11 March 1846)

§ SIR J. GRAHAM
said, that since 930 Wednesday last he had an opportunity of performing the promise he had made to the hon. Member (Mr. Duncombe) who had introduced this measure, of consulting the law officers of the Crown and Mr. Tidd Pratt respecting its provisions. He was bound to state that he had found much greater evils to be apprehended than when he last addressed the House upon the subject; and if the hon. Gentleman would consent to the arrangement he was about to propose, it would not only expedite the settlement of the question, but materially conduce to the convenience of the House. If the hon. Gentleman would consent to go into Committee pro formâ, he (Sir J. Graham) was prepared to introduce the Amendments which the law officers of the Crown and Mr. Tidd Pratt had suggested. Those Amendments were certainly very extensive, and they would very much change the character of the Bill. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duncombe) desired not only to reverse the judgment of Mr. Justice Wightman, with regard to friendly societies, but he wished that all societies should come under the operation of the Friendly Societies Act, without any limitation whatever. The Amendments which he should propose were the reverse of that. He proposed to classify and to specify all societies ejusdem generis with those already sanctioned by law, and declare them under the operation of the Act, and to extend the provisions of the existing Act still further, by allowing an application to be made for enrolment, on the part of societies not now included under the classes specified in the Act. On being certified by the Attorney General to be legal, though not falling within the classification enumerated in the Act, there would be an application to the Secretary of State; and the society, though not falling within the particular class, would be registered. He also proposed that Mr. Tidd Pratt should be paid by salary, the fees received being carried to public account, and that he should hold office during pleasure. He also proposed, what he felt would be of great importance—in point of fact, the practical adoption of a recommendation thrown out by Chief Justice Tindal upon the recent judgment. Mr. Tidd Pratt, by the rules of the savings banks, had the power of arbitration; but with reference to friendly societies, in cases of dispute there was no such power. He therefore proposed to give Mr. Tidd Pratt the power of arbitration, in cases of dispute in friendly so- 931 cieties. He also proposed to introduce another important provision, namely, that a distinct record should be kept of all the societies enrolled, with a short summary of their objects. This was an outline of all the alterations he intended to propose in the measure brought in by the hon. Gentleman, and he thought the House would agree with him that they were very important. He therefore suggested that the House should go into Committee pro formâ, and that the Bill be reprinted with the proposed Amendments; it might also he expedient to postpone the recommittal for at least a fortnight, in order that the measure in its amended form might be circulated through the country. Unless the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Duncombe) acceded to this proposition, he (Sir J. Graham) should be obliged to oppose the Bill as it now stood, and take the sense of the House upon it.

§ MR. T. DUNCOMBE
said, he would not put the House to the trouble of supporting his Bill on the present occasion. He would accede to the proposal of the right hon. Baronet, to allow the Bill to go into Committee pro formâ, and that it should receive the alterations which the right hon. Baronet suggested. It was quite clear, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that the Bill would be a totally new Bill; and in consenting that it should go into Committee pro formâ, of course he must consider it so entirely remodelled as to become the Bill of the Government itself: The object for which he had introduced the Bill would not in the least be effected by the alterations that the right hon. Baronet proposed. His object, and the object of those who had desired him to introduce the measure, was simply this—not only to remove all doubts which at present existed in consequence of the decision of Mr. Justice Wightman, but, in point of fact, to extend the operation of the existing law to all societies which were, in themselves, not illegal. He could not understand why a society that was not illegal should not have the benefit of enrolling their rules, as other societies had, in Mr. Tidd Pratt's office. The question really was, were benefit societies in themselves of advantage to the industrious classes? If they were of benefit to the industrious classes, the more they were encouraged the better. He wanted to bring them under the control and protection of the law. It was not to be credited that they had any illegal object when they applied for power to have 932 their rules enrolled. He was very much afraid that the effect of the right hon. Baronet's Bill would be to control and circumscribe the beneficial operation of the existing Act; and he would say at once, that all the friendly societies now in operation would prefer the law remaining as it stood, to the alterations proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, when they saw and understood them. Of course it would be competent when those alterations were made, and the Bill was reprinted, for him (Mr. Duncombe) to suggest such further Amendments as he might think proper; though he knew they would be rejected. The Bill he had brought in was now completely mutilated; it was frittered away; and the effect of the proposed alterations would be to defeat and destroy that which the Legislature originally intended when they inserted these words in the existing Act, "or for any other purpose, not being illegal." Those words were introduced by Lord Altorp into the Act of 1834, for the purpose of embracing every society not constituted for an illegal purpose. He (Mr. Duncombe) did not care what society, not illegal, they were intended to include—whether for supporting workmen out of employment or not. The right hon. Gentleman objected to enrolling any society for supporting workmen out of employment; but the right hon. Gentleman should recollect that at this very moment there were, many societies for that purpose which had their rules already enrolled. What did the Government mean? Were they going to make their Bill retrospective in its operation? Were they going to disturb those societies which had already got their rules enrolled? If they were, they would create immense confusion throughout the country. As to one alteration proposed by the right hon. Baronet, he really thought it would be better to allow the law to remain as it was than leave to the discretion of Mr. Tidd Pratt the question of what societies ought to be enrolled. With regard to the clause which provided for the payment of Mr. Tidd Pratt by a salary, instead of by fees as at present, he should say nothing. He left that to the right hon. Baronet and to Mr. Tidd Pratt. At the same time he must in justice say that, as a public officer, no person ever gave greater satisfaction to all parties than Mr. Tidd Pratt. That gentleman had a very difficult duty to perform: he was in constant communication with the industrious classes, on points of great importance and difficulty, and he believed that he 933 had uniformly given great satisfaction throughout all the country. But as to the Bill itself, the right hon. Baronet must consider that he (Mr. Duncombe) from henceforth washed his hands of it.

§ SIR J. GRAHAM
said, he certainly thought that if no other change whatever had been made in the Bill brought in by the hon. Member than the introduction of a clause providing for the settlement of disputes by arbitration, which would save the expense and delay of going into the Court of Chancery for that purpose, a very great advantage would have been gained. The hon. Member had stated that the great object of the measure, as he introduced it, was to enrol all societies not illegal; but the hon. Member must be aware that the extension of friendly societies not illegal was not materially checked by the Bill as proposed to be amended. The House must remember that benefit societies had one advantage. The rate of interest allowed out of the public funds to savings banks had been reduced to 3l. 5s. per cent, whilst interest at the rate of 3l. 16s. per cent was allowed to friendly societies. If this difference in the rate of interest were maintained the effect would be that savings banks, eo nomine, would become friendly societies in order to secure the benefit of the higher interest. Government could never permit that; but under the operation of the hon. Gentleman's Bill such would be the inevitable effect. Savings banks were not illegal; they were associations for mutual assurance, as it were; and under the authority of the Bill, if they changed their name they would take a higher rate of interest. It was utterly impossible that such a state of affairs should be allowed. The whole subject, therefore, must come under consideration; and on the part of Government he did not shrink from the responsibility of this measure. On the recommittal of the Bill he should be ready to go into further detail.

§ MR. WAKLEY
observed that his hon. Colleague (Mr. Duncombe) justly said, the Bill which he proposed was entirely gone. It was altogether dissipated, and a monster had risen in its place, which would affright the parties who had induced his hon. Friend to appear before the House. He (Mr. Wakley) was afraid the provisions of the altered Bill would be unpopular among the friendly societies; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman should not attempt to go into Com- 934 mittee upon it until after Easter, The friendly societies throughout the country ought to have time afforded to them to investigate its provisions and their probable operation. At the same time he felt that if the Bill offered no other benefit than that of arbitration, rather than the remedy of the Court of Chancery, it would be desirable to pass that clause of it at least. Considering the multitude of interests involved in this measure, he entreated the right hon. Baronet not to go into Committee until after Easter.

§ MR. T. DUNCOMBE
thought the difficulty of the right hon. Baronet, with regard to savings banks, might be easily overcome if the Bill were allowed to stand as he had introduced it, with the introduction of an exception into one of the clauses, saying that savings banks should not have the same advantage as benefit societies. He knew there was an extraordinary provision in the existing law with regard to the rate of interest, whereby savings banks received only 3l. 5s. per cent, and benefit societies 3l. 16s. All the calculations with regard to insurance were founded upon this 3l. 16s. interest, and therefore it might be difficult to alter it; but this point ought to have been considered when the interest allowed to savings banks was last under consideration. It was a most anomalous state of things; but much confusion would be occasioned by an alteration.

§ SIR J. GRAHAM
by no means wished to disturb an arrangement which was so advantageous to friendly societies as receiving a higher rate of interest. He was most anxious that friendly societies should be encouraged, and that the advantages which they enjoyed should be maintained. All that he wished was to impose certain limits strictly in accordance with their objects, and for this purpose he had conferred with the Attorney General, the Solicitor General, and Mr. Tidd Pratt, upon whose advice he acted. Any societies not enumerated or specified in the Bill might apply for enrolment.

§ MR. HAWES
said, the hon. Member (Mr. Duncombe) wished to include in his Bill every society not illegal. The right hon. Baronet said, that was liable to some abuse; but at the same time he proposed most materially to relax the law, so as to include a much larger number of societies. It was evident from the proposition of the right hon. Baronet that the law would be relaxed. This was an advantage; considering that a material relaxation had been 935 afforded under proper safeguards, that scarcely one useful society could be formed that might not be permitted to participate in the usefulness of the Bill, and that the Arbitration Clause was a great public improvement; he hoped his hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe) would see, that although he had not obtained all that was desirable, he had secured some most important ameliorations. He for one should therefore most assuredly give his cordial support to the Bill.

§ SIR J. GRAHAM
wished to say that the clause of enumeration in the Bill, as amended, might include all the societies now in existence. Mr. Tidd Pratt went further, and said he was perfectly willing to receive, from any quarter, suggestions as to the improvement of any clause of the Bill, fairly offered in the spirit of the measure. Any such propositions he (Sir J. Graham) would be happy to consider, and if, after consulting with the law officers, he found them useful, he should be disposed to consent to their incorporation into the Bill.