ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 13 July 1846)

MR. WILLIAMS
wished to make a few observations before the Speaker left the chair. The Estimates about to be moved showed a large increase. Now, as our differences with America were happily settled, the necessity for a large naval and 1098 military force no longer existed. There was a vastly increased expenditure since the late Government had held office. The whole charge for the year 1835, when Lord Melbourne's Government was in power, was 48,780,000l. The Estimates for this year amounted to 55,500,000l., making an increase of 6,750,000l.; and as a saving of 600,000l. had been effected by the reduction of the 3½ per cents, the real increase was 7,320,000l. He admitted that the late Government, from the aspect of affairs when they held power, were perfectly justified in increasing the army and navy; but the increase of our expenditure had been in general so much, that on the Miscellaneous Estimates there were from 2,000,000l. to 3,400,000l. There was now no ground even for an increase of the army and navy, as he was quite satisfied that the noble Lord at the head of foreign affairs would use the great ability which he possessed to cultivate peaceful relations with all countries. He had shown that our proposed expenditure over that of 1835 was 2,500,000l. more than the income tax, and 2,000,000l. more than the malt tax. Was it not worth an effort of the Government so to reduce our expenditure, that either of those obnoxious imposts might be repealed? A Commission had been appointed to ascertain the cost of the collection of the revenue; but it had made only one report, and on inquiring as to its proceedings a short time back, he discovered that it no longer existed. It had been ascertained that no less than six hundred places, from 200l. a year upwards, were created by the late Government. This was an expense which the country could not afford, and would not much longer permit. He trusted that the present Administration would follow the example of Lord Grey, and revise the whole system of expenditure, with the view of effecting large and extensive reductions.

§ MR. HUME
bogged to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government to the course which had been adopted with respect to the salaries of public officers by Lord Grey's Government, of which the noble Lord had been a member. A Committee had been appointed to revise all the salaries of public officers, from the Secretary of State downwards; and the country had looked upon that appointment as an earnest of the determination of Lord Grey's Government to practise strict economy in every branch 1099 of the public service. That Committee had issued a report; but it had been found impossible to carry all its recommendations into effect, or to carry the inquiry into other departments, as far as might have been desirable. However, the spirit of economy evinced by that Government had been highly creditable to them, and had gained them the confidence of the country. He wished to know if the noble Lord had any objection to have the several public establishments and departments submitted to such an inquiry as that to which the Irish Estimates had been submitted in 1830, and begged to suggest to the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should cause all the estimates to undergo the scrutiny of a Committee similar to that to which he had alluded.

§ DR. BOWRING
called the attention of the House to a most important subject, which would, as he believed, prove a great means of relieving the public from a considerable burden, and render a great public service. The noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government had been a member of a Commission to inquire into the public accounts, which had issued a report wherein certain principles had been laid down for the public accounts, the chief of which had been that the whole of the gross revenue should be paid into the Exchequer, and that all sums should be paid out of it in like manner. At present, however, there was no less than from 6,700,000l. to 6,900,000l. a year, which altogether escaped the attention of Parliament, and was taken up by various public departments for their expenses in the progress of the revenue to the Exchequer. There were also public departments that received large sums of money from the sales of stores and other sources, which were not known to Parliament, and of which the House had no cognizance. This was, as he conceived, very great irregularity, and he thought that all moneys should be paid into the Exchequer, and that no money should be issued from the Exchequer without the control of Parliament.

LORD J. RUSSELL
said, that the hon. Member for Coventry had called the attention of the House to the naval and military expenditure, and to the amount of the expenses of the collection of the revenue. As to the first observation of the hon. Gentleman that the whole increase of expenditure in those branches of public service was to be attributed to the apprehensions 1100 which prevailed that the differences between this country and America would grow into something serious, he could not agree. He remembered at the time having asked the question of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Administration; and the purport of his answer had been, that though this consideration had not been left out in framing the Estimates, yet that the increase of the Colonies, and the demand for civil and military forces, was sufficient to account for the increase of the Estimates. In that view he concurred. The hon. Member for Coventry also spoke of the expenditure of former years; but if he were to make a balance of the expenditure of former years, as compared to that of the present year, he must take into account the increased demand for naval and military forces in our Colonics, and the necessity for stationing naval forces for the protection of our increased commerce. It was but bad economy to exhaust the strength of regiments by over-exertion in foreign service. As soon as he entered office, he had looked into the subject, and he found that there were regiments which had been little more than four years at home that were ordered for foreign service, and that regi-which had been sent abroad in 1825 were abroad still. When such was the infrequency of relief he must say that he could not think it right to make any reduction of military expenditure, which would make this relief less frequent. He could not but think that it was very desirable to carry out the system of having each regiment ten years abroad and five years at home. With respect to the statement of the hon. Member for Bolton as to the expenses of the collection of revenue, the hon. Member must excuse him if he did not give him at present any positive answer. He would, however, turn his attention to the subject. He remembered also the report to which the hon. Member alluded; but he remembered that there had been practical difficulties in carrying its recommendations into effect. The hon. Member for Montrose had spoken of the increased amount of the Miscellaneous Estimates, and wished that they should be referred to a Committee of Inquiry. That subject was of a totally different nature, and had reference to a different question from that of the Naval and Military Estimates. He was not prepared to say that it would not be advisable to have a Select Committee in the course of another Session, to inquire into the Mis- 1101 cellaneous Estimates. Those which would now be submitted to the House had been prepared by his predecessors. However, he would take the subject into his consideration, and it might be found that the suggestion of the hon. Member was one of considerable utility.

§ SIR R. INGLIS
protested against the principle of the framing of the Estimates being left to any Committee, or being left to any body but the House itself.

LORD J. RUSSELL
replied, that he did not propose that the Estimates should be framed by any Committee, but suggested that it was worthy of consideration whether or not the Estimates might not be submitted to a Committee of Inquiry. His hon. Friend must be aware that there were frequently Finance Committees appointed by the House, and that if he (Lord J. Russell) were to propose such a Committee, he should not be adopting anything new in principle. He should not consider it advisable to continue such a course from year to year; but thought it might be advantageous to appoint a Committee at the end of nine or ten years.

§ SIR DE LACY EVANS
declared that he was not now so very anxious for economy in military expenditure as he had been on former occasions. He hoped that, whatever measures might be adopted by Government, they would recollect that, if the military department was unduly diminished, very great extravagance, instead of economy, might be the result. Considering the large expenditure of France in constructing fortifications, and in the support of her army, he thought a necessity was clearly shown to Government for being cautious on this point.

§ MR. CARDWELL
thought it should be borne in mind, when hon. Gentlemen were talking of the increase of expenditure, that within the last eighteen months a reduction of the expenses of collection had been effected in the Excise alone to the extent of 52,000l., by the suspension of patronage, and by the diligent attention paid to the subject by the late Government.