HC Deb 28 April 1846 vol 85 cc1198-210
MR. P. SCROPE

rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill for promoting the reclamation of Waste Lands in Ireland. He apologized for once more calling the attention of the House to a question connected with the relief of the Irish poor. He was in hopes that Her Majesty's Government would have saved him the necessity of doing so, by taking up this subject themselves. It was true, at the beginning of the Session several Bills were laid upon the Table of the House by the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department for the purpose of effecting similar objects in Ireland; the House shortly after passed a Drainage Bill, a Fishery Bill, a Public Works Bill, but he looked in vain for a Waste Lands Bill. The subject of Waste Lands in Ireland had, more or less, occupied the attention of Parliament for a long series of years. In 1809 a Commission was appointed to inquire into and report upon the Wastes and Bogs of Ireland, and that Commission made several very valuable Reports. In 1819, in 1830, and again in 1835, Committees on the state of Ireland had also taken much evidence, and in their reports given very useful suggestions upon the same subject; but up to 1843 scarcely any of these recommendations had been adopted. In that year an Act was passed called the Drainage Act, which, from various difficulties thrown in the way, had never been largely carried into effect. He believed that if, some ten years ago, effectual measures had been taken to reclaim waste lands in Ireland, a source of employment would have been opened to the people, which would have prevented that country from being reduced to its present unfortunate condition; at all events the misery of the people would have been alleviated, and distress and crime would not have been so general as now. The Land Tenure Commission, over which Lord Devon presided, reported last year that in their opinion a proper system for reclaiming the waste lands in Ireland would not only prove, in a national sense, highly advantageous, by affording employment to the people, but would also be a highly profitable investment for those who would undertake it. The time, he thought, had come when it was no longer safe nor desirable that the reclamation of the waste lands should be left to a spirit of improvement on the part of the landlords, who had hitherto so completely neglected to take advantage of the opportunities at their command. Some intervention on the part of the Government was imperatively called for. Facts had proved that the voluntary efforts of the landlords alone could not be depended upon to effect any large development of this great national resource for the employment and support of the people. And if it were said that facilities should be afforded to them by the law to dispose of their waste lands more freely than they could do at present, the answer to this proposal would be, that with all the facilities that could be devised, or afforded to the landlords, they would still be too slow in their operation to meet the pressing demand of the population for fresh land to cultivate. And, moreover, the same evils would follow, which had always resulted from the practice of returning the land, without condition, after reclamation, to the landlord, to be by him let or sub-let as he might think fit. In fact, the very term "waste lands" was a disgrace to the social arrangements of such a country as Ireland, where thousands upon thousands of the population continually endured unexampled distress and destitution from want of employment. There were in Ireland no less than six millions two hundred and ninety thousand acres of waste land, of which more than four millions, according to the calculation of Mr. Griffiths, and four millions and a half according to the calculation of Dr. Kane, were capable of reclamation. This vast extent of uncultivated wilds was spread here and there almost over the entire surface of the country. In the provinces of Munster and Connaught there were nearly two millions of acres; and in the province of Leinster, the best cultivated district of the country, there were, notwithstanding, 700,000 acres. In fact, there was scarcely a county in Ireland in which a certain proportion of the soil, whether greater or smaller, was not waste and uncultivated, although to a very great extent capable of reclamation. For instance, in the county Donegal there were 400,000 acres of waste land, by far the larger portion of which might be reclaimed. In the county Mayo there were eight hundred thousand acres, of which one hundred and seventy thousand were reclaimable; and in Nenagh, the very heart of the county Tipperary, there was, in the midst of all the shootings, murders, and burnings, a vast tract of waste land, comprising from fifteen to twenty thousand acres. In the present condition of Ireland, was not this a shameful state of things? Most assuredly it was a state of things which loudly called for the interposition of Government. The beneficial consequences which would infallibly result from so important an undertaking as the reclamation of the waste districts of Ireland, had been attested by the highest authority. The evidence adduced before the Devon Commission had been, as he would show, quite conclusive on the point. [The hon. Member proceeded to read extracts from the evidence of numerous witnesses examined before the Commission in question, proving, by reference to experiments which had already been made, the easy practicability of accomplishing the object at no greater cost, on the average, than from 5l. to 7l. per acre; by which, in hundreds of instances, land worth but 1s. per acre, or less, had been rendered permanently worth a rent of from 20s. to 40s. per acre.] It was impossible, after reading this testimony, to entertain any doubt that a very large proportion of the four millions, or four millions and a half, acres of waste land in Ireland, might be reclaimed, not by a profuse outlay of capital, but by the judicious expenditure of that labour which was now unproductive in Ireland, and which consumed the resources of that country, without adding to or improving them. The value and practicability of the reclamation of waste lands had been also forcibly insisted on in a book published ten years ago, by Captain Kennedy, himself an active improver, and lately Secretary to the Devon Commission—a valuable work, which had been published under the somewhat curious title of "Instruct, Employ, Don't Hang them." Captain Kennedy supported his proposition, namely, that it was idle to hope that any of those improvements on a large scale would come from the landlords, and that other means must be adopted to an extent that would relieve Ireland from the extraordinary difficulties in which it was placed. The time had come when measures should be taken, on the part of Parliament, to effect those improvements which the landlords themselves had neglected to undertake. If he were asked the reason why the tenants themselves did not improve those lands, it was, that they were not generally allowed that permanent tenure which was universally known to be the great stimulus to improvement. He referred to the evidence of Mr. J. M'Cann, Mr. Cassidy, and other persons, in support of this proposition. The usual mode, it would appear, for encouraging the improvement of waste land, was this, to permit a tenant to creep up a mountain side, or encroach on the edge of a bog; and after some time, when the land was made productive, the agent or landlord came down upon him and increased the rent, thus depriving the tenant of the advantages of the improvements he had made; and under those circumstances it was not surprising there should be a disinclination on the part of tenants to improve. The Hon. Mr. Cavendish stated, that in many instances within his own memory, tenants had reclaimed bad or waste land; but they received no encouragement to do so, for the rents were raised. The question was asked of Mr. Cavendish, if he found that system prevailed generally? His answer was—"Yes, on many estates." The question was then asked, "How soon after the reclamation of the land was the rent raised?" The reply was—in two years; and consequently, the tenants had no confidence that they would enjoy the fruits of their own labours. It was worthy of remark, that this had taken place in the county of Mayo, where two-thirds of the entire county were waste. He next referred to the evidence of the Rev. J. Halpen, county Limerick, and Mr. Maurice Colles, who stated that a feeling existed amongst the tenant class, that any improvements effected by them would be followed by an increase of rent. He would not have troubled the House in this way, but it was important to state the grounds on which he based his opinion that it was not desirable to leave to the voluntary exertions of landlords of tenants in Ireland the improvement of waste lands, which hitherto had been so much neglected in a country that so urgently called for improvement. Time was pressing—the population was increasing—the misery of the country was still growing. Twenty years ago, it was in a state that reflected disgrace on the country; and recent Commissions showed that the amount of distress and the number of persons unemployed were increasing up to this day. Again, there were clearances continually taking place. It was formerly the practice in Ireland for landlords to let land on lease for a term of years, or for lives, and those leases were day by day expiring. The consequence was, that the large number of persons who were encouraged to grow up upon the lands so demised, were placed at the mercy of the head landlord when he came into possession of the property. They had heard an instance on the preceding night of the mode in which those clearances were effected; and it seemed to be the general feeling in the House, that the mode in which that particular clearance was effected was only the proper application of the power of the landlord to deal with his property. He would not stop to inquire whether a landlord was justified in so dealing with his property, and ejecting large masses of persons from it; whether this act was done harshly, or in the supposed humane manner that had been referred to on the preceding night. At all events, such clearances had been continually taking place: they had been going on for a series of years, and would continue to take place probably in an accelerated ratio; and it was absolutely necessary to provide some resource for the poor people so evicted, who were now liable to starve on the highways, or in the crowded hovels of the neighbouring towns, to which they must resort in the vain hope of living by mendicancy. It was considerations of this kind that had attracted his attention to this subject, when he had the honour of being a member of the Public Works Committee in the year 1835, He thought that the recommendation of the Report of that Committee with regard to the reclamation of waste land did not go sufficiently far; and he delivered to the Committee his own opinion on what he considered the proper mode of dealing with those lands. His opinion on the subject remained unchanged, and was the foundation of the measure which he would venture to ask the consent of the House to allow him to introduce. He would, with the permission of the House, read some passages from the Paper containing the recommendations he then submitted to Parliament for adoption. His suggestion then was precisely the same as his present proposition, namely, that they should by compulsory process—but only such process as was adopted in the case of all landed property when required for public purposes—purchase from the owners such tracts of waste land as might be wanted for the purposes proposed. That was the principle adopted with reference to land required for railways and turnpike roads. The precedent in regard to railways was applicable to what he now proposed. It even went beyond it; for the land taken for railways was generally cultivated land, whereas the lands sought by his proposition to be obtained were waste lands, and the object was to improve them. The proprietors could not justly complain that their property should be taken from them, for it would be taken at a fair valuation by the verdict of a jury, for the purpose of being reclaimed by a more rapid and extensive mode than it was likely they would themselves adopt, and for the purpose of giving a larger supply of food to the starving population of Ireland. He should adopt that proposal in preference to the recommendations of the Commission: all of which required the assent of the landlords to the improvements, relying more or less upon the activity and voluntary exertions of the landlords to effect those improvements, and which also left the land so improved to the landlord, to be dealt with by him, and let out in the ordinary way that cultivated land was let out in Ireland. But the great benefit which he (Mr. Scrope) conceived would result from taking those waste lands was this, that it would be in the power of the State to dispose of them in the manner most beneficial to the country, subsidiary to other measures of improvement for the advantage of the people of Ireland; not merely in employing vast numbers of labourers who were now destitute of employment, but in locating upon those waste lands—when more or less improved—a large body of that unfortunate class who, whether as labourers or ejected tenants, or persons who, from the pressing competition for land, were unable to obtain farms. It would be in the power of the State—and he thought it would be a most valuable and beneficial purpose to effect—to grant perpetuity leases, or to give fee-simple grants to those parties who were so located; which would confer on them that permanent interest in the improvement of the property which was only to be found in a long and endurable tenure. He thought it would be most desirable for Ireland to create an intermediate class of persons of that description occupying farms of their own, and who would be sure of reaping the fruits of their own industry. His proposal was this, to authorize the Board of Works to purchase tracts—not less than one thousand acres lying together—of waste lands, and to pay for them according to the valuation provided by the Drainage and Fishery Act of this Session; that the purchase money should be applied in the same way as directed by that Act amongst the parties interested; that the Board should be authorized to open up those lands, to make drains, and any other improvements they thought necessary; and should be recommended, when they had so opened up the lands, to divide them into farms of from five to one hundred acres; that they should be empowered also to commence the reclamation of same lots, and to offer such farms, whether wholly waste or partially reclaimed, either for sale, with a fee-simple title, or on lease in perpetuity for a fixed rent; but always with the option to the tenant to purchase the fee, if necessary, by instalments. This would be a great improvement upon the plan adopted by the Irish Waste Lands Society; and by it employment might be given to a vast number of people who were now idle. The example of the Waste Lands Society might in some other respects be followed; and he recommended that the system should be commenced as soon as possible, upon a large scale, for the purpose of securing the unemployed population of Ireland some means of subsistence. Some measure for enlarging and extending the Poor Law of Ireland could not, under any circumstances, be long delayed; and this scheme would enable the unions to send their poor to those districts at once, where a large number of them might be usefully employed in an inexpensive manner. The rest would no doubt be absorbed by employment found for them upon the land already in cultivation, through the reactive influence of the Poor Law upon the landlords. It might be said that the farmers had no capital, and that they would not purchase the reclaimed land. On this point he assured the House that the farmers in the neighbourhood of Cork had more than 200,000l. lodged in the savings bank; and that many of them could afford to pay 100l. purchase money. There was a large amount of capital concealed in small sums among the Irish tenantry, and unemployed for want of opportunities of industrial investment. So far from there being any likelihood of a want of applicants for these farms, one witness before the late Commission frankly stated that the landlords would lose many of their best tenants by the adoption of this system, for they would leave their holdings and buy these reclaimed farms for themselves. But his proposal was not confined to the sale of farms to those who might be able to buy them, but they might be leased to a lower class, who had less means; in respect to whom he would remark that the tenants of the Waste Lands Society were enabled to go on without capital, cultivating one acre at a time, and it was expected that by degress they would bring their whole ten or fifteen acres into useful occupation. The Waste Lands Society had, in this way, no less than 18,000 acres under reclamation, all of which they expected would become profitable land. The Committee of 1835 recommended that facilities should be given to the landlords for improvements of this sort; but at the same time the hon. and learned Member for Galway, who sat at the head of that Commission, suggested that it would be desirable, if no greater progress was made in this direction than had been of late years the case, for Government to step in and undertake them. He recommended something like the same plan, which had already been adopted in the poor colonies of Belgium and Holland as a means of employing the able-bodied vagrants and mendicants, and such as showed an unwillingness to work. In this country we imprisoned vagrants who were found wandering without visible means of subsistence: his proposal was, that they should not be imprisoned, but employed productively. The case of the population of Ireland was so desperate, the want of employment so great, and there was also such a waste of subsistence, not to speak of the crime produced by destitution, that it was desirable Parliament should, by powerful measures, give employment to the population. In the reclamation of waste lands there existed these means of employment, which would also enrich the country, and which, far from taxing the landlords, would beneficially repay them for the expenditure. Mr. Thornton, in his philosophical work on Over-Population, held so strong an opinion in favour of some such plan as this, for enabling the starving people of Ireland to maintain themselves by reclaiming and cultivating the lands which the law now allowed individuals to lock up in unproductive barrenness, that he actually declared the Irish would be justified in calling for a Repeal of the Union, unless it were adopted. The hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.

MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORD

rose to support the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Stroud. At that hour of the night he would not go into much detail, but he wished briefly to notice one or two points connected with the subject. He thought that one of the most important steps that could be taken for the advantage of Ireland, would be the reclaiming of the waste lands; and he was also of opinion, that when that duty was not performed by the landlords, the Government ought to take it into their own hands. By having the waste lands in their possession, the Government would be able to provide allotments where there was an overflow of population, while, by introducing an improved and proper system of farming, they would be enabled to advance the agricultural education of the people. Above all, he looked on the reclamation of the waste land as one of the most essential modes of removing the horrors of the clearance system. He wished to call the attention of the Government and of the House to the Waste Lands Society of Ireland, as an instance of the great benefit that might be derived from their system being fully carried out. The hon. Member then read an account of the system followed by that society in reclaiming and selling their lands, and then continued to say that they had no other remedy for the state of the people of that country except emigration. When they reflected on the great expense of sending persons to a foreign land, how could they think of adopting it while they allowed the waste lands of their own country to remain unreclaimed and unoccupied? The Bill which he had brought in last Session was only intended to provide compensation for those tenants who had made improvements; and some further measures were, therefore, clearly necessary at present to improve the condition of the people. That Bill would have been gladly accepted by the people of Ireland ten years ago; but neither it nor any measure of compensation would be now sufficient to satisfy the people. So much for delay. For these reasons, he would give his most cordial support to the Motion of his hon. Friend.

SIR J. GRAHAM

had hoped some Irish Members might have been induced to follow the Mover and Seconder of this Motion, for he was convinced that on a matter of this description, local knowledge and experience were infinitely better guides than the wisest theories or the most specious arguments. He was, however, unwilling to offer opposition to a proposition of this kind; for, looking at the condition of Ireland, it was impossible to overlook the fact that with all that dense mass of population, vast tracts of that country were still uncultivated. At the same time, when he reflected that it was at so short a distance from this country, whence capital had such a tendency to flow wherever there was a prospect of profit, he thought it hardly possible there could be 4,000,000 acres of land capable of profitable improvement in a country where wages were exceedingly low, and yet that capital had not been employed in reclaiming them. He understood the hon. Gentleman to state broadly that by an outlay of not more than 10l. per acre these lands could be so reclaimed that in one year the crop would repay the outlay, or at all events that in six or seven years it would afford a good profit. But if private capital could not be advantageously laid out in such speculations, he feared the public money would be laid out still less advantageously. He observed, too, there was considerable difference of opinion between the Mover and Seconder of the Bill on some matters of great importance. The hon. Mover appeared to contemplate the erection on these lands of habitations of the humblest description, at an expense not exceeding 30s. for each hovel, while the hon. Member for Rochdale (and he agreed with the hon. Member entirely), thought that good tenements would be necessary; that moral habits and the enjoyment of the decencies and comforts of life were necessary ingredients for the success of any such measure; and without good cottages no such habits and decencies could be secured. Then, with respect to the subdivision of land, the hon. Mover proposed that the holdings should not exceed twenty acres, and he contemplated some not exceeding five; in which case it was manifest that tenements of the kind contemplated by the hon. Seconder would exceed the value of the land held by the occupiers. The hon. Mover also thought the reclaimed lands should be held in fee, on leases of long duration, or in perpetuity at a quit-rent; while the hon. Member for Rochdale (and in this also he entirely agreed with him) pointed out the expense which would be incurred in the undertaking, and that in consequence the holders should be placed under stringent regulations as to management, and should be removable for breach of covenant. The hon. Mover also thought the land so reclaimed should be brought in aid of the redundant population of those parts of Ireland which were now in cultivation; but inasmuch as these parties would be found to be most in want and destitution, that would be quite incompatible with the other part of the plan, that the land should be sold, which presumed the possession of capital. Whatever, therefore, was laid out for this purpose by the Government must be considered as sunk for the benefit of the destitute population of Ireland. He was not, however, prepared to discuss on this occasion a subject of such paramount national importance. But before he sat down he must advert to one statement of the hon. Gentleman—namely, that since he addressed the House on the subject ten years ago, nothing had been done for the instruction or employment of the people of Ireland. He thought, in making this statement, the hon. Member had hardly done justice to some measures which he, in common with the hon. Member had cordially supported. He had the satisfaction of stating that it appeared by the Report of the National Board of Education, that 400,000 children were receiving in Ireland as good an education as was given in any other country of the world. He stated this with confidence; and with respect to employment, even since they had assembled in the present Session, half a million of money had been granted for works, to afford employment to the Irish people. He hoped that these grants would lead to an advance of the productive power of that country, and that although the present calamity was a severe one, good might ultimately result from it, and from the attention which in consequence of this calamity Irish subjects had recently received from the people and Legislature of England. With respect to the present Bill, when introduced, he would give it his best attention; and it was quite possible that in its progress through the House such Amendments might be made as would render it much more suitable than the outline now sketched for their adoption. For these reasons, therefore, he should acquiesce in the Motion.

MR. E. B. ROCHE

was anxious to see the Bill of the hon. Gentleman before he expressed his opinion with regard to its details. The right hon. Baronet said he could not understand how 4,000,000 acres of waste land could remain unreclaimed, if it were susceptible of being cultivated with advantage. Now the fact was, that the great bar to the reclamation of waste lands in Ireland was the law of entail, which rendered it impossible for the English capitalist to lay out his money with the prospect of repaying himself. Another bar was that persons would not take the land unless they could get leases; and there was, unfortunately, a foolish disinclination on the part of the Irish landlords to grant leases. The Bill under consideration proposed to invest the Board of Works with a control over the money to be granted under the Bill; this he strongly objected to, because a feeling was growing up in Ireland that that Board was wholly inadequate to the performance of its functions with advantage to the public interests. If the measure was taken up at all, it should be taken up in a comprehensive and independent manner, altogether apart from the "jogtrot" machinery at present in existence. With respect to distress existing in Ireland, although it was stated that half a million had been spent in that country for its relief, he was not aware of the expenditure of a single sixpence.

MR. WYSE

said, there must be some new arrangement to meet the dire distress that existed in Ireland, and the increasing population of the country. The great mass of the people of England were employed in manufactures; while in Ireland 7,000,000 out of the 8,000,000 of people were engaged in agriculture, 2,000,000 of whom were actual paupers, and 1,000,000 on the verge of want. The question for the Government to decide was, to provide the means of support for that population. The law should interfere to permit the landlords to regulate their property, as the people of Ireland were solely dependent upon agricultural labours. At present there were 5,000,000 of acres cultivable out of the 6,000,000 waste in Ireland. In case of landlords not having capital to reclaim these lands, it would be desirable that the Government should take the reclamation of them into their own hands. He would support the Bill, because it would be useful to Ireland; and he suggested that all the Boards in Ireland relating to the question should be consolidated. He entreated the right hon. Baronet to devote his earnest attention to the establishment of agricultural schools and model farms in Ireland.

MR. A. LEFROY

was gratified to find that such a measure as this was contemplated. An improvement of the waste lands in Ireland would be the most important benefit that could possibly be conferred on Ireland. He hoped Members on both sides would unite in supporting this measure.

Leave given.

House adjourned at half past Twelve o'clock.