HC Deb 29 May 1845 vol 80 cc1022-6
Mr. Sergeant Murphy,

in bringing forward the Motion of Which he had given notice, in reference to the repeal of so much of the 17th and 18th of Car. II., c. 7, as related to the payment of Ministers in corporate towns in Ireland, wished to state the origin of an impost which pressed with so much severity on both the higher and lower orders in Ireland. An Act was passed in the reign of Charles II., having for its object the providing of sustenance for certain Protestant clergymen introduced into eight towns in Ireland, in which at that time a number of Protestant colonists resided. Indeed, the inhabitants of those towns were then almost, if not altogether, Protestants; and for the maintenance of the Protestant religion among them, it was considered necessary that this levy should be made. The result of the late census had shown that the majority of the population of those towns were now Roman Catholics; and it was for the purpose of asking the Government to remove from them an impost which was a source of heartburning and disquiet, that he (Mr. Murphy) brought forward this question. From 1830 to 1835, important modifications had taken place with regard to the application of the Church revenue, which changes involved the principle of the present question. At that time the Ecclesiastical Commissioners admitted in their Report that so peculiarly obnoxious was the tax to the feelings of the Roman Catholics, and a great proportion of the Protestants of Ireland, that its advantages to the Established Church were more than counterbalanced by the odium attached to its collection. If the vestry cess was considered odious as a tax on conscience, it must be admitted that the immediate payment of Protestant Ministers by those of a different religion would be considered much more so. The house valuation, which regulated the amount of this impost, was limited to 60l.; and, therefore, the burden pressed most disproportionately on the lower orders. Several Protestant clergymen themselves regarded it as an extreme hardship on the poor to be compelled to pay this tax, and only continued its collection out of a respect for vested interests, and the rights of their successors. Another evil was that the non-payment of this impost operated to the deprivation of electoral rights. He hoped the Government would remove the impost, and provide a substitute from the funds of the Established Church. In this suggestion he was not amenable to the observation that this would be a di- version of the ecclesiastical revenues to secular, general, or Roman Catholic purposes; it was only re-distributing those funds in another channel. In former debates connected with the Church, he found it was admitted, and the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners showed it, that in 1835 there were 151 benefices in Ireland without a Protestant 194 with 10; 198 with 20; 133 having 30; 40 with 107; and 50 having each 77 Protestants, and that the joint income of these was 58,076l. He was aware that Acts were afterwards passed by which provision was made that in case no service was performed for three years in any church, it was to be declared vacant, and afterwards annexed to some other church, and a proportionate stipend given to the clergymen officiating in the church in which that annexation took place. He thought that principle might be extended, and that where congregations were below a certain number, the livings should be sequestrated, and the funds so applied by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as to relieve Roman Catholics from such burdens as those of which he complained. He also thought the stipends of the Irish bishops might be diminished for a similar purpose. He had presented petitions, numerously signed, on the subject; and he trusted the Government—who, he was bound to say, were honestly fulfilling their promises of endeavouring to remove abuses from, and ameliorate the condition of Ireland—would do away with an impost which, in the terms of the Report referred to, did nothing whatever to counterbalance the odium connected with its collection. The hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving— That this House will resolve itself into a Committee to take into consideration the Act 17th and 18th Car. II., c. 7, intituled, 'An Act for provision of Ministers in Cities and Corporate Towns, and making the Church of St. Andrew's in the suburbs of the city of Dublin, presentative for ever,' with a view to the Repeal of so much thereof as relates to the payment of Ministers in Corporate Towns in Ireland.

Sir H. W. Barron

, in seconding the Motion, said, it was a most remarkable fact, that nearly all the large towns in Ireland, inhabited by Protestants, were exempted from this tax. That circumstance made the tax more odious in Roman Catholic cities and towns. He hoped the Government would give their early attention to it with a view to its removal.

Sir T. Fremantle

complimented the tone in which the hon. and learned Gentleman had brought the subject before the House, but could not say the hon. and learned Gentleman was equally successful in finding a remedy. He admitted there were great objections to the tax; and he had considered the question with a view, if possible, of providing some remedy. Even last year his noble Friend who preceded him in office had conversed frequently on the subject with the Attorney General; but they had not been able to find a substitute for the present mode of paying Ministers in corporate towns in Ireland. The abolition of the vestry cess and the alteration in the tithe system had been referred to by the hon. and learned Gentlemen; but there were difficulties connected with Ministers' money which were even greater than any connected with those questions. No doubt there were strong objections to the payment of all taxes; but the power of collecting a tax from any individual lodger in the poorer parts of a great city pressed with undue severity. Nobody would object to have that remedied, if it could be done. The hon. and learned Gentleman was not borne out in his attempt to show the inequality of the tax, by referring to that portion of the Act which provided that no house should be assessed beyond the value of 60l. For, two hundred years ago, when this tax was imposed, it might fairly be presumed that 60l. was the extreme value that could be fixed on any house in Ireland. If that conjecture were correct, then all the other houses being assessed in the same ratio, the tax would not press disproportionately on the lower classes. He admitted, however, that great inequality had been created by the lapse of time which had occurred since the passing of the Act. He thought, however, that it was highly desirable to provide, if possible, some substitute for the tax. The hon. and learned Member said that the Church property ought to be brought to meet this burden; and the hon. Member further stated, that there were livings in Ireland in which no duties were performed, and that we ought to make the revenues of those livings subject to those burdens. But the hon. Member seemed to forget that the disposal of those revenues was already provided for, and that the properly of the Church in Ireland was in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. Now, with respect to the towns alluded to by the hon. and learned Member, he did not think it would be quite just altogether to relieve those towns from the payment of this impost. Service was performed in those towns by the Protestant clergymen, and the Protestant congregations filled the churches, and he did not see why those congregations should be relieved from the payment of those clergymen. He did not see why the Protestants should be altogether relieved from the payment of their own clergymen, when, to a certain extent, they were not unwilling to contribute to that object. The hon. Baronet who seconded the Motion said, that certain large towns in the north of Ireland did not contribute to the payment of Ministers' money; but the reason why those towns was exempted was because they were subject to the payment of tithes. This tax was not unknown in this country. It prevailed to a considerable extent in Edinburgh, and in London the clergy were to some extent paid by a house tax. He did not think the case so bad as the hon. and learned Gentleman had represented it. At the same time, looking at the number of Roman Catholics in the towns in Ireland, and at the period when the tax was imposed, he was of opinion that the case deserved consideration. He promised to bestow his attention on it; but he could not agree to the proposition of the hon. and learned Gentleman, which would put an end to the payment without providing a substitute. He hoped that the hon. Member would withdraw his Motion; and if the hon. Member declined, then he trusted the House would negative the Motion.

Mr. E. B. Roche

said, that if the Government admitted the existence of the evil, they ought to provide a remedy. Why not take a substitute for this impost some of the overgrown revenues of the Irish Church? The object was not to get the matter taken into consideration, but to get rid of the abuse, and a pledge should be given by the Government that they would effectually deal with the subject.

The hon. Member was proceeding, when the House was counted out, and adjourned.