§ House in Committee of Supply.
§ On the proposal of a grant of 299,333l. for defraying the expenses of the Commissariat and Barrack supplies, &c, for the Army,
§ Mr. W. Williamssaid, that the only vote which had been taken on these Estimates on a former occasion had been voted at a late hour of the night, and at a time when he had not an opportunity of making the few observations he was desirous of offering to the House upon them. He was sorry to see that there was so great an increase in this department of the public service in the present year. The Estimates consisted of nine votes, and in seven of those nine votes there was an increase of 284,000l., whilst there was also a considerable increase in regard to the other two, over the sums voted last year. The Ordnance Estimates for the present year amounted to 2,287,000l. In the year 1835 they were one million less than that amount; so that the Estimates of the present year were, without anything in the circumstances of the country to justify any such increase, very nearly double those which were considered necessary in 1835. He objected to the number of officers attached to the Royal Horse Bri- 1335 gade, which was kept at home, and performed no service abroad, as the other regiments did. He admitted that the Artillery corps of the country ought to be kept in an efficient state; but this regiment called the Royal Horse Brigade, composed of 570 men, had three colonels, six lieutenant colonels, and forty officers in all, giving an officer to every eighteen men. Moreover, nineteen of those forty-six officers received extra pay for brevet rank. He thought that this corps ought to be placed on the same footing as the other Artillery regiments.
§ Captain Bolderosaid, the present was the first time since he had a seat in that House that he had heard anything in disparagement of this splendid corps. If they did not keep up the number of the Horse Artillery, they would weaken their cavalry, because it covered the movements of the cavalry. A great advantage in maintaining this corps in a state of efficiency was, that if they found it necessary to double their Horse Artillery force, they could do so by merely providing horses. It was a poor economy to disband this fine corps for a saving of 1,700l., for that was all that would be saved.
§ Sir H. Douglasentreated the Committee not to be led away by the hon. Member's regard for pecuniary economy, to interfere with this splendid and efficient corps—the Horse Artillery. The hon. Member said it might be dispensed with in peace, and speedily reconstituted for war. This was not so. No corps of this description and scientific character could be suddenly formed. Nothing in our military system had contributed more to the success and renown of our arms, than that power of concentration, celerity of movement, and active combination of artillery with the other arms, which attended the introduction of horse artillery. The efficiency of the horse artillery was the result of many years of improvement and experience. He (Sir H. Douglas) would not attempt to take up the time of the Committee to trace this. For this, it would be necessary to go back to the time of Frederick the Great, who introduced horse artillery in that war, in which, by celerity of movement, he defeated, with the same army, enemies on every frontier of his States. He might show the prodigious advantages reaped in all the armies of Europe from the adoption of this arm—the important uses made of it by Dumourier, Pichegrue, and 1336 Napoleon; and in our own service, the brilliant services of that corps in the Peninsular war. He (Sir H. Douglas) would not attempt to specify the many brilliant proofs, exhibited in that war, of the peculiar advantages of that description of artillery to which the hon. Member's observations related; but, with the permission of the Committee, would refer only to the battle of the Nivelle on the 10th of November, 1813. Clauzel was strongly posted on a ridge, having the village of Sarre in front, covered by two formidable redoubts, San Barbe and Grenada. He thought the country in front was so difficult and impracticable for artillery, that he was astonished when eighteen British guns opened upon those redoubts at daylight in the morning. Under the powerful effect of a shower of shot poured upon S. Barbe, the infantry of the fourth division stormed and carried that redoubt. Ross (the present Sir Hew) then galloped—he (Sir H. Douglas) begged the Committee to mark the term — galloped to a rising ground in rear of the other redoubt, Grenada, drove the enemy from it, when the British infantry carried it, and the village of Sarre, and advanced to the attack of Clauzel's main position. Part of it was carried; but Clauzel stood firm, covered by another redoubt and a powerful battery. These were speedily silenced by Ross's troop of horse artillery, the only battery that had been able to surmount the difficulties of the ground after passing Sarre. The British infantry then carried the redoubt, drove Clauzel from his position, forced the French to retire, and the rout was complete. Sir, that operation was worth all the money the horse artillery has ever cost the country. He (Sir H. Douglas) cordially concured in the vote for increasing the number of men of the foot artillery; far from thinking it unnecessary, it was indispensable; but it was totally inadequate to the wants of the service. He rejoiced to find in these Estimates, votes for improving the coast defences, for ordnance stores, and for armament; but (he continued) "I beg the Committee to remember that, however liberally the material of the coast defences may be provided for, however promptly these may be completed, you will have done little towards the security of the country, unless you are prepared to man those defences with a sufficient number of well-trained and efficient artillerymen, ready, at any time, for any sudden emergency. To be prepared for, is not to pro- 1333 voke, but to prevent war. The most perilous part of a war to this country, would be the commencement, before you get your strength together, and can put forth your force for meeting menace, with active defence, as Britons ought, to keep war from the shores of England. But you have not at present one artilleryman per gun for existing defences; you have not a sufficient number of artillerymen to keep up the foreign reliefs properly with well-trained men. You have not a piece of ordnance, nor an artilleryman in all the Colonies of the Pacific. Such are the demands on the head quarter establishment, the practical school of artillery, that artillerymen, and even non-commissioned officers are frequently sent away imperfectly trained, and often without any instruction in the gun practice. Remember that it is not only necessary to retain practical proficiency in the management of the arms which triumphed in the late war, but to become as proficient and as superior in acquiring a perfect knowledge, an expert and effectual management, of the new arms which will be generally used, together with a gigantic power, in future wars. Improvements in naval and military ordnance keep peace with the gigantic progress making in other departments of mechanical and practical science. The arms of the late war have been superseded—more powerful engines—more ponderous bolts are forged. Such now is the state of naval artillery and gunnery, and the means of aggression, that coast defences require additional strength, corresponding armament, and, above all, efficient management, to prevent the approach of forces which, if permitted to close, are now, as has been shown in a recent instance, more formidable than ever to coast batteries. I would repeat, then, in the strongest possible terms, that whatever else we may do, we do nothing, effectually, towards the security of the country, against any sudden attack, if we provide not in time the means to man our batteries with a sufficient number of well-instructed efficient artillery-men."
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Vote of 213,246l. for Ordnance Stores for the Land and Sea Service,
§ Sir H. DouglasWith reference to what had been said by his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty, on a former occasion, respecting the insufficiency of space on the breakwater at Plymouth, for the erection of a battery, he (Sir H. Douglas) thought it indispensable to the defence of 1334 the Port and Arsenal, that a powerful battery should be established on the southwest elbow of the breakwater, to cross fire with the defences on the Mount Edgecombe shore; and consequently that the breakwater should be sufficiently enlarged and heightened at that part for the erection of such a work.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Question that 208,573l. for Salaries and Contingencies of Officers in the Barrack Establishments of the United Kingdom and the Colonies be granted,
§ Sir H. Douglaswished to ask his hon. and gallant Friend whether any, and what, measures were adopted to provide for the building of a church at Corfu, consequent upon the demolition of that which, standing in the way of improvements in the military defences, had been taken down?
§ Captain Bolderowas understood to say, that there had been some difficulty in deciding upon a proper site; but that, this being supplied, a new church would speedily be commenced.
§ Sir H. Douglaswould take that opportunity of asking whether any, and what, measures were adopted in the erection or enlargement of barracks, at home and abroad, to provide chapels for Divine service, and which might likewise be used as school rooms; and which he (Sir H. Douglas) thought should be provided wherever barrack accommodation for the head quarters, or for any considerable detachment of a regiment, might be permanently provided for.
§ Captain Bolderowas understood to say, that in the works now under execution for barrack accommodation, provision had been made for those important purposes.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Question that 62,743l. for Scientific purposes in the Ordnance Department be granted,
§ Sir H. Douglaswished to know whether any, and what, measures were adopted for the purpose of prosecuting the Ordnance Survey of Scotland—the elementary and secondary triangulation of which had been so long contemplated?
§ Captain Bolderowas understood to say, that measures had been adopted for the actual prosecution of that important work.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Vote of 6,500l. for part of the expense of erecting the farmhouse and premises in the Botanical Gardens at Kew,
The Earl of Lincolnobserved, in answer 1335 to a complaint of Mr. Williams, that the Gardens were open to the public every day from an early hour.
§ On the Vote of 85,395l., for providing temporary accommodation for the Houses of Parliament, Committee-rooms, residence for the Speaker, &c.,
§ Mr. Huttcomplained of the state of the Committee-rooms, and said that the Members who attended day after day to their duties, ought to have some protection from the dangerous state in which imperfect ventilation left the Committee-rooms.
§ Sir R. Peeladmitted the justice of the hon. Member's claim on the Government to provide adequate accommodation for Members whilst engaged in close attention to their duties.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Vote of 13,400l. being proposed for the salaries and expenses of the persons employed in the care and arrangement of the Public Records,
§ Mr. Protheroeasked if any plan had been adopted for the more perfect custody and preservation of the records?
The Earl of Lincolnsaid, the proposal for depositing them in the New Houses of Parliament had been abandoned, and the matter had been referred to Sir F. Palgrave.
§ After a short conversation,
§ Mr. Hawesremarked, the question had been so long under consideration, that, before it was settled, in all probability the records would be burnt.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The following Votes were also agreed to:—
§ 14,000l. to defray the cost for pulling down and rebuilding the Home Office, and enlarging the Board of Trade Offices; 3,336l. to defray the cost of maintaining Holyhead Harbour; 50,000l. to defray the expense of repairing and enlarging the Caledonian Canal; 9,000l. to defray the expenses of the works and repairs of Kingston Harbour; 39,320l. for salaries of Officers, and the expenses of both Houses of Parliament; 25,900l. for the expenses of the Treasury Office; 17,420l. for the Home Department; 24,000l. for the Foreign Office; 21,000l, for the Colonial Office; 39,000l. for the Privy Council and the Board of Trade; 2,000l. for the Privy Seal; 34,026l. for the Paymaster General of the Forces; 15,919l. for the Controller and Officers of the Exchequer; 2,612l. for the expenses of the Jewel Office in the Tower; 10,967l. for salaries 1336 and expenses of Inspectors and Sub-Inspectors of Factories; 22,471l. to pay the salaries and expenses of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in Dublin and London, and the Privy Council Office in Ireland; 5,018l. to defray the charge for salaries, &c., of the office of the Paymaster of Civil Services in Ireland; 3,157l. to pay the salaries and expenses of the Board of Public Works in Ireland; 221,588l. for providing stationery, printing, and binding for the several departments of Government in England, Scotland, Ireland, and the Colonies, and for providing stationery, &c., for the two Houses of Parliament; 4,950l. for the expense of printing, &c., to be executed by the Queen's printers in Ireland.
§ Sir C. Napierinquired if a Supplementary Vote was intended to be brought forward for the retired Navy list this year?
§ Sir G. Cockburnthought he might venture to promise as much.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, that in October or November, it was likely that a library and reading room would be ready, in which the public might consult the State Papers, an index to which had been completed.
On the Vote of 112,317l., for Repairs and other Expenses connected with Public Buildings,
Mr. Bernalcalled the attention of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government to the fact of a picture having been purchased for the National Gallery for 600l., which proved to be not worth 40l. He alluded to a soi-disant picture of Holbein which was exhibited for a short time in the National Gallery. He had not seen it, but believed it was now vegetating in an inglorious obscurity, having been considered unworthy of a place in the national depository of paintings. He had, therefore, to complain that such large sums of money should be paid for paintings of illegitimate or doubtful origin.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, that as one of the Trustees of the National Gallery, he would be happy to give the hon. Member every information. He thought that, speaking generally, the pictures bought by the Trustees were of very high repute. They had procured some of the very finest paintings. He admitted, however, that there were in the National Gallery pictures of an inferior character; but these were not 1337 purchases. They were the gifts of private individuals. The Trustees were, however, now adopting a rule with respect to gifts of this nature, which it would be ungracious altogether to refuse; but the Trustees intended to attach to their acceptance a condition that they should be at liberty to present them to provincial galleries. He admitted that many of the pictures presented by private individuals were of an inferior character. He would take that opportunity of saying, that if the House would consent to have a good National Gallery for the reception of paintings, it would be the cheapest expenditure in the end, as many persons would be induced to give their pictures to it, in order to have their names recorded there, which they would prefer to the money the picture would bring. With respect to the purchase alluded to by the hon. Member, he begged to say that the National Gallery, being deficient in works of the old German school, a report reached the Trustees that a picture of Holbein was for sale. It is difficult to say, in the case of a picture of the age of two or three hundred years, whether it can be justly attributed to the master or not. The picture in question was bought as a Holbein; and though there is no doubt that it is a contemporary painting, yet, as there had arisen a doubt as to its being a Holbein, it was withdrawn. They were at present in communication with the party from whom it was bought; and the Trustees, who had met twice on the subject, were to meet again in reference to it on Monday next. No guarantee had been received as to the authenticity of the picture; but, indeed, in such cases, it was difficult to obtain a guarantee. In cases of doubt, he should recommend that eminent artists and dealers be consulted—a course which he thought preferable to the appointment of a permanent commission. The purchases made by the Trustees of the National Gallery were rare and infrequent, and confined to valuable pictures. It was, however, difficult to get valuable pictures, so great was the price given for them. Indeed, the rapid increase in the price of works of art was really astonishing.
§ Dr. Bowringwished to know if there were any hope of improving the external appearance of the National Gallery. If any proposition were made for that purpose, he was sure that all parties would cordially concur in supporting it.
§ Mr. Warburtontrusted that the right hon. Baronet would be prepared, in the 1338 course of next year, as the cheapest mode of obtaining a good collection of pictures, to recommend the erection of a suitable building to contain the great national collection.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, when the grant for the present National Gallery was made, there were so many claims on the public purse, that Parliament was not disposed to vote a large sum for the purpose. The result, from whatever cause, was, that they had thrown away a most magnificent site. It was impossible to stand on the steps of the present building, and not be convinced of that fact. Very little good, however, would be done by laying out money on the external improvements, such, for instance, as the enlargement of the turrets. In fact, the interior of the building required great alteration before it could be effective for the purpose for which it was designed. For example, a great deal depended on the way in which the light was thrown on the pictures. If the angle of incidence, and the angle of reflection, were not duly attended to, great injustice might be done to a picture of great merit. The erection of a new National Gallery would be much better and cheaper than any attempt to modify or improve the exterior of the present building. This subject was under the consideration of the Government of the country; and he thought, before many years elapsed, we should have a National Gallery worthy the reception of works of art, and calculated to encourage their possessors to bequeath them to the public.
§ Mr. Haweswished to put in one word for the modern school of painting by our own countrymen. Their works, he believed, if wisely selected, might form a collection which would compare with any gallery that had ever existed.
§ Viscount Mahonsuggested the propriety of procuring a collection of portraits of eminent men distinguished in the history of this country. Such a collection might exercise a most beneficial influence upon the rising generation, whilst it could be procured probably at little expense.
§ The Vote was agreed to.
§ On the Question that 3,340l. be granted for the Ecclesiastical Commission of England and Wales.
§ Mr. Williamsopposed the Vote; for he thought it unjust to tax for any such purpose those who did not conform to the doctrines of the Established Church.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the Commission was appointed for the 1339 purpose of distributing the funds that came into its possession in a manner that might provide for the better religious instruction of the community. As the object was a public one, the State paid the expenses of the Commission.
§ Dr. Bowringexpressed his concurrence in the objection taken by the hon. Member for Coventry.
§ Mr. Liddellobserved, that it was just that the State should defray the expenses of the Commission, as the whole community benefited by its labours.
§ Mr. Redingtonthought that the expenses of the Commission should be paid out of the funds in the hands of the Commissioners, before they applied any money to the increase of endowments.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 61 Noes 19: Majority 42.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Acland, Sir T. D. | Hamilton, W. J. |
| Acton, Col. | Henley, J. W. |
| Baring, rt. hon. F. T. | Herbert, rt. hon. S. |
| Barrington, Visct. | Hotham, Lord |
| Boldero, H. G. | Houldsworth, T. |
| Bowles, Adm. | Liddell, hon. H. T. |
| Boyd, J. | Lincoln, Earl of |
| Broadwood, H. | Mackenzie, W. F. |
| Bruce, Lord E. | Mackinnon, W. A. |
| Cardwell, E. | McNeill, D. |
| Clayton, R. R. | Martin, C. W. |
| Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G. | Masterman, J. |
| Clifton, J. T. | Nicholl, rt. hon. J. |
| Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G. | Parker, J. |
| Copeland, Ald. | Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. |
| Corry, rt. hon. H. | Peel, J. |
| Cripps, W. | Plumptre, J. P. |
| Davies, D. A. S. | Protheroe, E. |
| Deedes, W. | Scott, hon. F. |
| Denison, E. B. | Sheridan, R. B. |
| Dickinson, F. H. | Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C. |
| Egerton, Sir P. | Spooner, R. |
| Fitzroy, hon. H. | Stansfield, W. R. C. |
| Flower, Sir J. | Stuart, H. |
| Fremantle, rt. hn. Sir T. | Sutton, hon. H. M. |
| Gaskell, J. M. | Tollemache, J. |
| Gladstone, Capt. | Trench, Sir F. W. |
| Godson, R. | Trevor, hon. G. R. |
| Gordon, hon. Capt. | Wellesley, Lord C. |
| Goulburn, rt. Hon. H. | TELLERS. |
| Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. | Baring, H. |
| Grogan, E. | Lennox, Lord A. |
| List of the NOES. | |
| Anson, hon. Col. | Hawes, B. |
| Brotherton, J. | Hindley, C. |
| Collett, J. | Martin, J. |
| Crawford, W. S. | Morris, D. |
| Duncan, G. | Muntz, G. F. |
| Duncannon, Visct. | Redington, T. N. |
| Ferguson, Sir R. A. | Ricardo, J. L. |
| Gibson, T. M. | Somerville, Sir W. M. |
| Villiers, hon. C. | TELLERS. |
| Warburton, H. | Williams, W. |
| Wawn, J. T. | Bowring, Dr. |
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next Vote was, that 52,770l. be granted to defray the charge of Salaries and Expenses of the Poor Law Commissioners in England and Wales, and in Ireland.
§ Mr. Redingtonsaid, it was well worth while that the House should know how the Poor Laws had operated in Ireland. In many parts of that country they had not operated as had been anticipated. Inquiry into the operation of the law, and the manner in which the Assistant-Commissioners had performed their duties, was extremely desirable. He was not one of those who were entirely opposed to a Poor Law; but all the facts attending the working of the system should induce the Government to institute a proper investigation.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, that considering the peculiar circumstances of society in Ireland, which at first rendered the application of a Poor Law to that country a doubtful experiment; and remembering that in many respects the law framed for Ireland differed from the English law; not conferring, for example, any right to relief, even in circumstances of extreme destitution, and exhibiting the absence of any law of settlement, he did not think that inquiry into the operation of the system hitherto would be altogether inexpedient. The ultimate success of the measure must mainly depend on the co-operation of the resident gentry of Ireland. There were great difficulties to be overcome, and there was much opposition to be met, both as regarded the payment of the rate, and the general administration of the law. In a future Session he should by no means be disposed to resist inquiry; but he could assure the hon. Gentleman that the Commissioners relied chiefly on the co-operation of the gentry for the success of the measure, and infinitely preferred such co-operation to the exercise of the powers with which they were invested.
Sir R. Fergusonsaid, the complaint was that the Commissioners did not perform their duties so as to give general satisfaction; and he hoped that in the next Session a thorough investigation into the whole matter would take place.
§ Mr. Redingtonthought the inquiry ought to originate with the Government.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, the Government had sufficient information for the execution of its duty; this was the first time this 1341 Session he had heard any Irish Member express a wish for an inquiry; but if it should be made next Session, the Government would not have the least objection to it.
§ Mr. Redingtonsaid, the Government might have sufficient information; but it was from the very parties of whom they complained. They wished for the inquiry, that the House might be informed on what was the state and operation of the law. The Irish Members at present believed themselves to be better acquainted with the state of the question in that country than the Government; the Government having sufficient information for itself, had never made a reply to a request by an English Member for an inquiry into the English Poor Law: and if any inferences should be drawn by others from it, it was not the Irish Members who would be responsible for it.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The House adjourned at half-past one o'clock.