§ House went into Committee of Supply on the Miscellaneous Estimates and Civil Contingencies.
§ On the First Vote being moved, of 32,011l. 10s. to defray law charges, and the salaries, allowances, and incidental expenses in the office of the Solicitor for the affairs of Her Majesty's Treasury for the year 1845–6,
§ Mr. W. Williamswished to know from 710 the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether there was really any necessity for having seven lawyers in this department. They had a solicitor, an assistant solicitor, and five clerks, all of whom, he presumed, were lawyers, and the salaries of these officers amounted to no less than 6,011l. 10s. He also perceived that the estimated cost of prosecutions was put down as 26,000l., and he thought the House should not vote such a sum without being at least apprized of what these prosecutions were.
§ Mr. Cardwellsaid, the Solicitor for the Treasury had to discharge the business of no less than thirteen departments of the public service. The gentleman who at present filled that situation, was a most invaluable public officer; and by all who were acquainted with the manner in which he discharged his duties, the amount of salary which he received—2,850l.—would, he was convinced, not be thought too great. Arrangements had, however, been made, by which, on any future occasion, the gentleman selected to fill that office would not receive more than 2,000l. a year. The prosecutions were such as would be necessary in the thirteen departments to which he had alluded; but on this subject the hon. Gentleman might rest assured that the greatest economy would be practised.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next Vote was 16,218l. to defray the expenses of the Pentonville Prison.
§ Mr. W. Williamssaid there were 475 prisoners in this prison, and the salaries of the officers placed over that number of prisoners amounted to no less than 7,558l., being an average of 16l. for taking care of each prisoner. In addition to that sum there was a cost of 31l. for each prisoner. Now, it had been shown by the Anti-Corn-law League that the wages of an agricultural labourer in the southern counties was, on an average, not more than 7s. a week, or 18l. 4s. a year, so that the cost of one condemned felon was more than the amount of the entire support of two families of the labouring population. The salaries of the persons employed to teach the prisoners trades and manufactures amounted to 1,500l.; while the entire produce of their labour amounted to only 1,498l., or 12l. less than the salaries amounted to. Thus, notwithstanding all that had been said in praise of this labour system, the result was, that the produce of each prisoner's work was less than 1½d. 711 a day. He also objected to the item of 360l. for washing in the prison, as he thought the prisoners ought, at least, be made to keep the prison clean.
§ Colonel Sibthorpsaid, he did not know what the hon. gentleman paid his labourers, but he could assure him that he (Colonel Sibthorp) and hon. Friends near him paid their labourers from 12s. to 15s. a week.
§ Mr. Hindleywould wish to know how many officers were in the prison, and what salaries were paid to them.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, that the hon. Member for Coventry was rather a hard taskmaster. Last year he complained in like manner of the annual expense of this establishment, when the grant amounted to 20,364l. In 1843, it was 25,850l. This year it was 16,218l., showing a decrease on last year of 4,146l., and on the previous year of 9,632l.; without any diminution, he should rather say, there was an increase in the number of prisoners. Viewing the system abstractedly, he admitted that it could not be regarded as economical, although he could assure the hon. Member that every attention was paid to economy in the arrangements of the prison. All the prisoners confined in the establishment were convicts under sentence of transportation for a period of not less than 7, and in many cases 10 and 14 years. Unless the system of this establishment proved successful, it would be the duty of the State to maintain those prisoners in a penal Colony, for the period of their sentence. If successful, if by the discipline to which the prisoners were subjected, a reform were effected in their character and habits at the expiration of eighteen months, that being the time for which they were here imprisoned, they might be said to be no longer a source of expense to the State, because, from the moment of their arrival in the penal Colony, the State was relieved from the cost of supporting them. As far as the experiment had gone, it had proved eminently successful. He admitted that the system of prison discipline was not in itself economical; but if he were right in the position he had just attempted to establish, it eventually proved so to the nation; because the comparatively trifling expense attendant upon the instruction they received during the short term of their imprisonment here, superseded the necessity of a very heavy expense during the prolonged period of their transportation. 712 The right hon. Baronet read an extract from the Report of the Commissioners, recently presented to Parliament, to show that the experiment of training the prisoners to the higher branches of labour, by which they might be enabled to earn an honest livelihood in another country, and the attention paid to the improvement of their morals in the Pentonville establishment, had been attended with success. In reply to the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Line, he wished to say that he believed the Paper containing a return of the number of the instructors, which was considerable, and of their salaries, was ready, and could be presented at once.
§ Mr. Ewartexpressed his approbation of the system adopted in the Pentonville establishment; but regretted that it was not carried further, and applied to Van Diemen's Land, the system of which was quite at variance with this, and ought to be abolished.
§ Mr. Williamshad heard the statement of the right hon. Baronet with great pleasure. He rejoiced at the success of the experiment, and the improvement it had effected in the habits of the prisoners; but he confessed, he doubted the policy of making those men tailors or shoemakers. What the Colony to which they were sent wanted was persons having some knowledge of agriculture or agricultural labour. Their services would prove much more valuable and important. With regard to the question he first started, he must observe that the right hon. Baronet had not at all accounted for the inability of the prisoners while in this establishment to earn more than three-halfpence a day.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, it must be remembered the system of Pentonville prison was the system of complete separation, so that labour could not be carried on so as to meet the hon. Member's views.
§ Mr. Hindleyasked what were the respective salaries of the chaplain and the medical officer.
§ Mr. Cardwellreplied, that the chaplain received 400l. a year, the assistant chaplain 200l. a year, and the medical attendant 300l. a year.
§ Mr. Hindleyconsidered such a charge to be monstrous. It was paying more than a pound a head for each prisoner.
§ Mr. Hawessaid, that he had repeatedly visited the prison, and he knew that the duties of the chaplain were most laborious. It was utterly impossible to carry out the 713 system without having such an officer as chaplain. He believed that the money for this purpose was most properly and beneficially laid out.
§ Mr. Wakleysaid, that the system of administration in that gaol could not be tried without a large expenditure of pounds, shillings, and pence. He had often been in this prison, and he believed that nothing could be better than the system existing there. In the first instance, he had viewed the foundation of the establishment with feelings of horror, and as being merely an instrument of torture; but the results had been most astonishing, and most gratifying. He had examined the prisoners themselves closely, and he had watched the proceedings, and he firmly believed that not one in fifty of the unfortunate inmates of the prison, when liberated, would again violate the laws of the country.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Vote that 28,118l. be granted to defray the expenses of the Millbank Prison for the year 1845–46, being put,
§ Mr. W. Williamssaid, that he observed that in this Estimate, there was a charge of £200 a year each for three inspectors of the prison. This appeared to be a new species of appointment; he, therefore, wished to know what was the object of it?
§ Sir J. Grahamobserved, that this charge certainly appeared for the first time in the Estimates, but it was necessary, in consequence of new arrangements with respect to this prison. Complaints were formerly repeatedly made by several hon. Gentlemen as to the system of prison discipline carried on in this prison. He had considered it expedient to alter the whole system in this prison. By this new arrangement, every male and female convict, sentenced to transportation, was, as soon as possible, conveyed to Millbank, and there they remained for three months under the close inspection of these three officers. The persons appointed to these offices, were the three inspectors of prisons. One or other of these inspected the convicts in Millbank prison constantly, indeed almost daily. At the end of three months the inspectors, in their report to him, recommended the course which should be adopted as to the future destination of each convict. They selected a certain number for the Pentonville prison, where they would be taught a useful trade, 714 which would be of essential service to them when removed to the Colonies; while others, who had been guilty of the most serious crimes, the commission of which was formerly attended with capital punishment, were selected to be sent to Norfolk Island. On the arrival of the former class at Van Diemen's Land, after having been taught a trade, there was a further gradation. Some of them received a conditional pardon, while others received ticket of leave, which was a gradation something short of pardon. With respect to every convict, there was a special report made to him, and on such report he, on his responsibility, provided accordingly. He need not allude to the high character of those three gentlemen, as they were well known. Their respective salaries, as inspectors of prisons, was only £800 a year; and as these additional duties had been imposed upon them, it was only considered proper that they should have an increase of £200 a year, making altogether £1000 a year.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the vote of 250,000l. to defray the charges of Convict Expenditure in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land,
§ Mr. Ewarttook occasion to object to the whole system of transportation at present adopted. He stated that the free settlers in Van Diemen's Land were extremely indignant at the letting loose amongst them of the most depraved characters. He understood that morality was no longer safe in that Colony, and that the free settlers were about petitioning Parliament against what the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies termed "the probationary system." He was of opinion that much more good might be effected than at present by substituting the Pentonville system for that of transportation, whilst he believed that the expense would not be so great.
§ Sir J. Grahamcould not deny that there were many serious moral objections to transporting felons into a Colony; but, taking the balance of good and evil, he thought it was far better that they should be transported, than be retained in the mother country. On the average, the number of prisoners convicted of felony in Great Britain, amounted annually to some 5,000. Pentonville would not contain above 600; besides, he could not think of recommending that the Pentonville system should be applied to the whole of 715 these 5,000; he doubted, in fact, whether it could be properly applied to more than the present number out of the average number annually convicted.
§ Mr. Wakleytrusted that some means of improving the minds and morals of prisoners would be adopted in the gaols of this country. He hoped that the right hon. baronet would propose some measure with reference to prison discipline generally, founded on the system pursued at Pentonville.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the Vote of 2,006l., for defraying the salaries of certain professors at Oxford and Cambridge,
§ Mr. Wakleycomplained that a salary of only 100l. was appropriated from this Vote to the professors of Chemistry. He thought, considering the importance of that science in connexion with medicine, manufactures, and the arts, that all possible facilities should be afforded for its study.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The next Vote was for 4,540l. to defray the expenses of the University of London.
§ Mr. Ewartsaid, with reference to the observations of the hon. Member for Finsbury, that he considered it most desirable for the interests of the country that the utmost encouragement should be given to the cultivation of the science of chemistry.
§ Mr. Warburtonsaid, that during ten months in the year very good laboratory instruction in chemistry could be obtained in London. The laboratory in University College had recently been enlarged, and that institution could now receive thirty laboratory pupils. Hon. Gentlemen must not suppose that many of these laboratory pupils came from the agricultural districts; they came almost exclusively from the manufacturing districts.
§ Mr. Wakleyexpressed his desire that a national institution for affording instruction in chemistry should be established. He believed that during a recent visit of Professor Liebig to this country, the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had had an interview with him, and that the professor had made some most startling statements with reference to this subject. Professor Liebig had told him that it was frightful to see the waste of capital in connexion with manufactures in this country, in consequence of our ignorance of chemistry. He hoped the right hon. Baronet would turn his attention to the matter, with a 716 view to providing better means of instruction in the science.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, he had had an interview with Professor Liebig on this subject, but he was not quite convinced of the policy of direct Government interference in such a matter. He was by no means satisfied that an institution for the express purpose of teaching chemistry would be so successful and efficient in this country as similar institutions had been abroad; but he thought, considering the splendid educational establishments which existed in this country and in Scotland, that it was the duty of those by whom such institutions were conducted, to make proper provision for the cultivation of that important science.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ House adjourned at a quarter to three o'clock.