HC Deb 24 March 1843 vol 67 cc1477-9

On the Order of the Day being read for the third reading of the Dogs' Bill,

Mr. Hume

objected to proceeding with the bill at such a late hour.

Lord A. Lennox

said, that ample opportunity had been afforded to hon. Members who felt any interest in the subject of ascertaining that the bill would be brought forward to—night.

Mr. M. Phillips

opposed the bill, on the ground that it would injuriously affect the interests of a large class of poor persons. Dogs were very useful to venders of crockery and other wares, in drawing their carts, and he had observed that they were generally treated with humanity. This bill, if it passed, would deprive numbers of individuals of the means of subsistence, and, at best, it would only substitute one class of evils for another, as some animals must be employed to run the carts. He had heard of a person who employed a goose to clean his chimney, and who, on being reproached for cruelly in doing so, thought he made a great advance in humanity by using two ducks instead.

Mr. Hutt

thought that a very erroneous impression was generally entertained, that the disease of hydrophobia was occasioned by the ill—treatment of dogs. A committee of that House, however, which had been appointed some years since to inquire into the subject of canine madness, stated their opinion that the treatment of dogs had no influence in producing hydrophobia. He agreed with the hon. Member for Manchester, that if this bill were passed it would have the most mischievous effect, and that it would inflict great hardship upon hawkers and persons engaged in similar occupations, in many parts of the country who employed dogs for the conveyance of their wares. He did not wish to say anything that might be deemed offensive, but he must be permitted to observe, that many hon. Members of that House indulged in shooting, hunting, and coursing—practices which be thought involved much greater cruelty than the mere employment of dogs, which were frequently treated with great kindness, for the purpose of carriage.

Lord A. Lennox

said, an hon. Member of that House had published a protest against this bill, in which he adverted to the hardship which would be inflicted by its adoption upon an unfortunate cripple whose legs had been amputated, and who had been conveyed from place to place in a cart drawn by dogs. This case appeared one of great hardship, but on the whole he thought that the hon. Member—like the cripple to whom he alluded—had not, with regard to the protest, a leg to stand on. He contended that the ill-treatment to which dogs were subjected frequently had the effect of producing hydrophobia.

Mr. S. Herbert

opposed the bill. When they were legislating on subjects which were likely to affect the extremely poor classes of society, they should be particularly cautious, as those people had no persons in the House who could fully represent their wants, or sympathize in their feelings. Legislators were too much in the habit of overlooking these matters, and he must say, that he would not with patience see a poor woman seized in the streets by a constable for selling apples, and under the charge of begging sent to the House of Correction like a thief. It was not well, when measures such as the present were proposed, to allow the poor to imagine that their interests were altogether overlooked.

Mr. Muntz

felt that the measure was proposed, not so much for the benefit of the canine tribe, as for the convenience of those who rode in coaches and on horse— back; but, though he was one of (he latter, he would not support the bill. Why not extend the principle to other animals? Why not prevent horses from drawing boats, an employment for which they were never intended? The poor of this country would soon exhibit their indignation if the House went on infringing on their rights.

Sir R. H. Inglis

said, it was no justification of those who rejected this bill that another class of evils existed, for which no remedy had been provided. The course which those who opposed it ought to take was to repeal the Police Act, for all that this measure did was to extend a provision of that act beyond its present limits. He was willing to admit that some species of dogs were adapted to draught, and were very serviceable; but, because dogs were used in dragging the fish carts from Scheveling to the Hague, on the sand of Holland, or in drawing men in carts on the snows of Kamschatka, it did not follow that their soft and elastic foot was equally adapted to the rough granite pavements of our towns, or even to the hard macadamized roads in the country.

Mr. Brotherton moved the adjournment of the debate; but, after a short conversation, this motion was withdrawn. The House divided on the original question:— Ayes 66; Noes 43 [—Majority 23.

List of the AYES.
Acland, T. D. Gaskell, J. Milnes
Acton, Col. Gladstone, rt. hn. W.E.
Alford, Visct. Gladstone, Capt.
Antrobus, E. Greene, T.
Arkwright, G. Hale, R. B.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Hamilton, W. J.
Borthwick, P. Hervey, Lord A.
Bowring, Dr. Hindley, C.
Bramston, T. W. Hodgson, It.
Broadley, H. Hope, A.
Brotherton, J. Hughes, W. B.
Bruce, Lord E. Johnson, Gen.
Buckley, E. Lambton, H.
Chetwode, Sir J. Lockhart, W.
Clayton, R. R. Mainwaring, T.
Clerk, Sir G. Martin, J.
Cripps, W. Masterman, J.
Darby, G. Morgan, O.
Dawnay, hon. W. H. Morris, D.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Mundy, E. M.
Feilden, W. Newdigate, C. N.
Fielden, J. Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Fellowes, E. Pringle, A.
Ferrand, W. B. Pusey, P.
Filmer, Sir E. Repton, G. W. J.
Fitzmaurice, hon. W. Rolleston, Col.
Flower, Sir J. Rushbrooke, Col.
Fremantle, Sir T. Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C.
Fuller, A. E. Staunton, Sir G. T.
Stuart, H. Worsley, Lord
Sutton, hon. H. M. Young, J.
Taylor, T. E.
Trollope, Sir J. TELLERS.
Turner, E. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Winnington, Sir T. E. Lennox, Lord A.
List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A. Martin, C. W.
Aldam, W. Mitchell, T. A.
Bentinck, Lord G. Muntz, G. F.
Bernal, Capt. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Boldero, H. G. O'Brien, A. S.
Broadwood, H. Paget, Lord A.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Pakington, J. S.
Christie, W D. Philips, M.
Clive, hn. R. H. Ross, D. R.
Cobden, R. Scott, R.
Colborne, hn. W.N.R. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Corry, rt. hn. H. Strutt, E.
Dickinson, F.H Thornely, T.
Eliot, Lord Trelawny, J. S.
Ewart, W. Tufnell, H.
Gibson, T. M. Villiers, hon. C.
Gill, T. Vivian, hon. Capt.
Henley, J. W. Wawn, J. T.
Herbert, hon. S. Williams, W.
Lincoln, Earl of Wortley, hon. J. S.
Mackenzie, W. F. TELLERS
Manners, Lord J. Hume, J,
Marsham, Visct. Hutt, W.

Mr. R. Scott moved the omission of the second clause, which had escaped hi; notice before, owing to the rapid manner in which the bill had been passed through committee. This clause gave to constables the power of apprehending offenders against the act without a warrant —a power which was unknown to the law except in cases of felony, and which he was sure the House would not give its consent to.

The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the bill:—Ayes 30; Noes 57: Majority 27.

List of the AYES.
Acland, Sir T. D. Hamilton, W. J.
Acton, Col. Hervey, Lord A.
Antrobus, E. Hodgson, R.
Arkwright, G. Lambton, H.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Lockhart, W.
Boldero, H. G. Masterman, J.
Buckley, E. Mundy, E. M.
Chetwode, Sir J. Newdigate, C. N.
Dickinson, F. H. Pringle, A.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Pusey, P.
Feilden, W. Staunton, Sir G. T,
Fellowes, E. Trollope, Sir J.
Fremantle, Sir T. Worsley, Lord
Gaskell, J. Milnes
Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E. TELLERS.
Gladstone, Capt. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Hale, R. B. Lennox, Lord A.
Aglionby, H. A. Hutt, W.
Bentinck, Lord G. Lincoln, Earl of
Bernal, Capt. Mackenzie, W. F.
Borthwick, P. Mainwaring, T.
Bramston, T. W. Mitchell, T. A.
Broadley, H. Morgan, O.
Broadwood, H. Morris, D.
Brotherton, J. Muntz, G. F.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Nicholl, right hon. J.
Christie, W. D. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Clayton, R. R. Paget, Lord A.
Clerk, Sir G. Philips, M.
Cobden, R. Rolleston, Col.
Corry, rt. hon. H. Ross, D R.
Cripps, W. Rushbrooke, Col.
Darby, G. Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C.
Eliot, Lord Stansfield, W. It. C.
Ewart, W. Stuart, H.
Ferrand, W.B. Strutt, E.
Filmer, Sir E. Sutton, hon. H. M.
Fitzmaurice, hon. W. Thornely, T.
Flower, Sir J. Trelawny, J. S.
Fuller, A. E. Tufnell, H.
Gill, T. Vivian, hon. Capt.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Wawn, J. T.
Greene, T. Wood, G. W.
Henley, J. W. Young, J.
Herbert, hn. S. TELLERS.
Hindley, C. Hume, J.
Hughes, W. B. Scott, It.

The words struck out.

On the question that the bill do pass, the House again divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 31:—Majority 19.

List of the AYES.
Acland, Sir T. D. Borthwick, P.
Acton, Col. Bramston, T. W.
Antrobus, E. Broadley, H.
Arkwright, G. Brotherton, J.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Chetwode, Sir J.
Boldero, H. G. Clayton, R. R.
Clerk, Sir G. Mainwaring, T.
Cripps, W. Masterman, J.
Darby, G. Morgan, O.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Morris, D.
Fellowes, E. Mundy, E. M.
Ferrand, W. B. Newdigate, C. N.
Filmer, Sir E. Nicholl, rt. hn. J.
Fitzmaurice, hon. W. Pringle, A.
Flower, Sir J. Pusey, P.
Fremantle, Sir T. Rushbrooke, Col.
Fuller, A.E. Smith, rt. hn. T. D. C.
Gaskell, J. Milnes Staunton, Sir G. T.
Gladstone, rt. hn. W.E. Stuart, H.
Greene, T. Sutton, hn. H. M.
Hale, R. B. Trollope, Sir J.
Hamilton, W. J. Worsley, Lord
Hervey, Lord A. Young, J.
Hindley, C.
Hodgson, R. TELLERS.
Hughes, W. B. Inglis, Sir It. II.
Lockhart, W. Lennox, Lord A.
List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A. Mackenzie, W. F.
Bentinck, Lord G. Mitchell, T. A.
Bernal, Capt. Muntz, G. F.
Broadwood, H Norreys, Sir D. J.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Paget, Lord A.
Christie, W. D. Philips, M.
Cobden, R. Ross, D. R.
Corry, rt. hon. H. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Dickinson, F. H. Strutt, E.
Eliot, Lord Thornely, T.
Ewart, W. Trelawny, J. S.
Gill, T. Tufnell, H
Goulburn, rt. hon. H. Vivian, hon. Capt.
Henley, J. W Wawn, J. T.
Herbert, hon. S, TELLERS.
Hutt, W. Hume, J.
Lincoln, Earl of Scott, R.

Bill passed.

House adjourned at one o'clock.

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