§ Order of the day read, and the House in Committee of Supply. On the question that a sum of 23,132l. be granted for defraying the salaries of officers in her Majesty's naval establishments abroad,
§ Mr. Humesaid he understood, that by the recent treaty, this country had agreed to reduce its naval establishments on the American lakes. He wished to know whether or not it was intended to carry that agreement into effect?
§ Mr. S. Herbertsaid, it was the intention of the Government to carry out the provision of the treaty to which the hon. Gentleman referred.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that a sum not exceeding 591,951l. be granted for defraying the wages of artificers, labourers, and others employed in her Majesty's establishments at home,
§ Mr. Humewished to know whether any plan had been adopted for preventing difficulty or mistake in forwarding the yards and spars required for the outfit or repair of ships of different classes. He 308 thought the establishment of a naval museum would be a beneficial measure. There was a vast number of naval models lying in Somerset-house, which had hitherto been neglected.
§ Mr. S. Herbertsaid, that a classification of spars and yards was at present always adopted in the dockyards. He doubted whether the establishment of a naval museum would be of benefit to the public.
§ Mr. Humesaid, that the charge in this vote was too great, unless it was intended to continue building ships of a large class. He wished to see iron ships of war used.
§ Mr. S. Herbertsaid, there was one iron vessel afloat, and another iron steamer had been ordered by the Admiralty.
A vote of 37,490l.. for wages to artificers &c, employed in her Majesty's establishments abroad was agreed to.
§ On the vote of 1,055,894l. for naval stores, building and repair of ships, docks, wharfs, &c, and for steam machinery,
§ Mr. Humesaid, that the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham), when at the Admiralty, had greatly reduced the amount of stores kept on hand. That plan had been acted on for a number of years; but he feared they were now about to resume the old and bad practice of buying articles to lie and rot in the yards. He wished to know, if it were possible to have a comparative statement of the amount of stores after the right hon. Baronet had made his reductions and the present time. He objected to going on increasing the stores on hand.
§ Sir J. Grahamsaid, that it must be remembered that a certain class of naval stores could not be supplied in a short time. It was necessary to have on hand a stock of these stores. He had never consented to lay on the Table a comparative statement of the kind asked for by the hon. Gentleman, as the hon. Gentle man seemed to think. He did not consider it would be expedient to do so.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote of 234,868l.. for new works, improvements and repairs in the dockyards, &c,
§ Mr. W. Williamsobjected that the vote was greater than last year by 40,000l.. The sum required for repairs at Portsmouth could not be required. He particularly objected to the sum of 168,000l. being laid out in building three new slips 309 there. He objected also to the erection of new barracks for the marines at Chatham, which in the present distressed state of the country, was an unnecessary and lavish waste of public money.
§ Mr. S. Herbertsaid, that the slips were the continuation of works that had been determined to be necessary last year, and the adoption of the method of slips for ship-building had led to a great saving to the public. With respect to Chatham, owing to so many ships being paid off, the marines wanted accommodation, and it was thought better to have them in barracks than quartered in public-houses as heretofore.
§ Mr. Humesaid, there was a species of extravagance in voting 80,000l. for buildings to accommodate 900 men.
§ Mr. Williamsthought the best way to accommodate the marines was to discharge them. He thought no reason had been given for the vote of this money for barracks.
§ Mr. Hawesthought 80,000l. an exorbitant demand for the accommodation of 1,000 men, more especially when Government itself was of opinion the sum could be reduced. He would, therefore, suggest the propriety of part.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that 10,0002l. was for the purchase of the ground, and the other 70,000l. was taken as a rough guess at the expense of the building,
§ Mr. Humewas of opinion that the pre sent estimate ought to be withdrawn, and an amended one made. He saw in it 25,000l. for repairs and constructions at Grbraltar, Malta and Halifax, and 12,000l. for repairs at Bermuda which he under stood had been already complete.
§ Captain Layardsaid, as respected the building of marine barracks, he was aware of the advantage of having the marines well housed and lodged, but the proposed sum was a very large one, and he hoped greater attention would be paid to economy in these matters than was formerly the practice.
§ Mr. Humeon looking at the distress which prevailed through the country, could not consent to such lavish expendi- 310 ture, and would, therefore, propose to reduce the vote 10,000l..
§ The Committee divided on the quesion that the grant be 224,868l.;— Ayes 22; Noes 71; Majority 49.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Aldam, W. | Langston, J, H. |
| Archbold, R. | Leader, J. T. |
| Blewitt, R. J. | Mitcalfe, H. |
| Browne, hon. W. | Morris, D. |
| Bryan, G. | Rundle, J. |
| Buller, C. | Scholefield, I. |
| Busfield, W. | Stansfield, W, R. C. |
| Childers, J. W. | Thornley, T. |
| Ellis, W. | Wakley, T |
| Ewart, W. | |
| Forster, M, | TELLERS. |
| Hawes, B. | Hume. J. |
| Johnston, A. | Williams, W. |
| List of the NOES. | |
| Arbuthnott, hon. H. | Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H. |
| Arkwright, G. | Jones, Capt. |
| Baskerville, T. B. M. | Kemble, H. |
| Bentinck, Lord G. | Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E. |
| Blackstone, W.S. | Lennox, Lord A. |
| Boldero, H. G. | Lincoln, Earl of. |
| Botfield, B. | Mackenzie, W. F. |
| Buller, Sir J. Y. | Manners, Lord J. |
| Chapman, A. | Marsham, Visct. |
| Cochrane, A. | Masterman, J. |
| Collett, W. R. | Maxwell, hon. J. P. |
| Corry, rt. hon. H. | Mitchell, T. A. |
| Cripps, W. | Morgan, O. |
| Dickinson, F, H. | Nicholl, rt. hon. J. |
| Douglas, Sir H. | O'Brien, A. S. |
| Douglas, Sir C. E. | Palmer, G. |
| Duncombe, hon. A. | Peel, J. |
| Duncombe, hon. O. | Plumtree, J. P. |
| Escott, B. | Plumridge, Capt. |
| Fitzroy, Capt. | Pringle, A. |
| Flower, Sir J. | Rashleigh, W. |
| Gaskell, J. M. | Richards, R. |
| Gordon, hon Capt. | Rose, rt. hon. Sir G. |
| Gore, M. | Rows, hon. Capt. |
| Gore, W. O. | Rushbrooke, Col. |
| Goulburn, rt. hon. H. | Sheppard, T. |
| Graham rt. hn. Sir J. | Somerset, Lord G. |
| Halford, H. | Stanley, Lord. |
| Hamilton, W. J, | Stewart, J. |
| Hamilton, Lord C. | Sutton, hon. H. M. |
| Hepburn, Sir T. B. | Tennent, J. E. |
| Herbert, hon. S. | Thompson, Mr. Aid. |
| Hodgson, R. | Tollemache, J. |
| Hope, hon. C. | Trench, Sir F. W. |
| Houldsworth, T. | TELLERS. |
| Hussey, T. | Fremantle, Sir T. |
| Jermyn, Earl. | Baring, H. |
§ Original proposition agreed to.
§ On the question that 746,107l. be granted for the half-pay to officers of the navy and Royal Marines.
§ Mr. W. Williamsasked why every pro- 311 motion did not appear in the Gazette, as in the case of promotions in the army? That would tend, if any thing could, to check the system of promotion now going on. The officers on half-pay were receiving from 45 to 50 per cent, more than those on active service. In the present financial condition of the country that was not a state of things to be permitted.
§ Sir J. Grahamagreed with the hon. Member that constant publicity was the real check to the power of promotion, and he supposed the hon. Member's object was to obtain that publicity. Now, it was given to a considerable extent in the Gazette. But there was a constant periodical publication of promotions at a great expense. There was published quarterly and on authority, the Navy List, on a reference to which the hon. Member could institute a most minute and relative comparison as to the annual amount of pro motions, from 1820 to the present time. Information could not be given in a more minute or tangible form than it was in that publication.
§ Mr. W. Williamswas aware of that; but the Navy List must be purchased like any other book.
§ Sir J. Grahamobserved that the Gazette was not distributed gratuitously. It must be purchased too, although it was the custom to publish its contents in newspapers.
§ Mr. W. Williamscontended that the navy promotions, as well as those of the army, should be published in the Gazette, in order that they might obtain a similar publicity in newspapers.
Vote agreed to.
On the vote for 498,702l., to defray the charge of military pensions and allowances, being put,
§ Mr. Humesaid, though it was invidious to object to any name that appeared in this vote, yet he could not avoid adverting to one — that of the hon. Captain Walde-grave. It appeared he entered the navy in 1801, was made lieutenant in 1806 (which was before his turn), commander in 1809, and captain in 1811; so that in all he had been but nine years in the service. On what grounds could this officer be entitled?
Captain Gordonobserved, that Captain Waldegrave, besides having commanded one of the ships at Acre, had served actively during the whole of the time he had been afloat, and than that gallant officer 312 no man in the service bore a higher character.
§ Mr. Humesaid, he observed in this vote an item of 212,000l. for the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. Now, that institution had considerable property in Cumberland and elsewhere to support it. That property, he must say, was greatly mismanaged, or it would not be necessary to come to Parliament to supply the deficiency necessary to support the establishment. Part of the property belonging to the hospital had been sold, and to avoid mismanagement it would be well if all of it was sold, and the proceeds invested in public securities.
§ Sir James Grahamthought that the hon. Member, in making these observations upon the present vote, was misled by the introduction into it of a vote of money, for the purposes of the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital. These were persons who, in fact, had no claim upon the hospital now, but who were in the same position as military pensioners of the same grade. Their pensions having been once, payable through Greenwich Hospital accounted for the name of that establishment being used. He would, however, answer the observations of the hon. Member. The hon. Gentleman had reflected upon the management of the property of Greenwich Hospital. He believed that the gentleman to whom that management was entrusted had been appointed by him during the Government of Lord Grey; that his name was Grey, and that he was a person commanding, on all agricultural subjects, the greatest degree of public confidence. He had had the greatest possible experience, and was peculiarly conversant with the question to which his attention was directed; and his impression was, that there was no part of the north of England in which farming land was better managed. Any information which he had received was altogether opposed to that of the hon. Gentleman; for he was told that the estates were admirably managed, with the greatest economy and skill, and that the land was as profitable as any land in the part of the country where it was situated. With regard to the proposition of the hon. Member for the sale of the whole estate, he would observe that he had some time ago brought before the House, and carried a proposition for the sale of some detached parts of the estate, and this measure had 313 been carried out. He did not think it advisable, however, to come to Parliament with a proposition for selling the whole of the estate, because he thought that the continuance of the land in the possession of the hospital formed the best security for, and was most conducive to the steady and firm maintenance of this great naval and charitable institution.
§ Mr. Humethought that it was hardly consistent for a Minister of the Crown to say, that even landed property was more secure than the securities which were sustained by the public credit. He still advocated the sale of these estates and the investment of the money.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 245,429l. be granted to defray the charge of transports for the conveyance of troops and stores,
§ Mr. C. Bullerhad on a former evening shortly referred to the step which, it appeared, had been taken by the Board of Admiralty, of sending out troops in line-of-battle ships instead of in transports, and he would now beg to say a few words more on this subject. As he had been informed, the Government had taken the course of sending out troops by two line-of-battle ships (the Rodney and the Thunderer), although this mode of conveyance was far more expensive than that of employing merchant vessels, and far less convenient, inasmuch as merchant vessels were always ready for the service; whereas, as in the case of the Rodney, men of war had to be sent for, perhaps from distant places, and had, further, to be got ready for the particular service by taking out the lower deck guns, and so on. It did not appear that any objection was made by the Government to the employment of merchant vessels, on the score that they were not fit for the service, while to the principle of employing men-of-war in their stead, it seemed to him that there were several objections. In the first place, he did not see any possible advantage in it; while they were employed in this service they could not be used as men-of-war, the lower deck guns were taken out and so on, and they could not be considered as any additions to the naval force of the country. The mere circumstance that a certain additional number of officers might thus, perhaps, be actively employed, did not counterbalance the many disadvantages. As to the expense, it was enormously increased by the substitution of men-of-war 314 for merchant transports. It was, in fact, increased to five times the amount; whereas the conveyance of a thousand troops by transports would only cost between 8,000l. and 10,000l., the conveyance of the same number of troops by a man-of-war would amount to no less than 40,000l.. and upwards; so that here was a loss of more than 30,000l. to the public. Another objection was, that, as he had been informed by a high naval authority, the sending a large body of soldiers any distance along with sailors of the royal navy, was, in a very high degree, prejudicial to the discipline of both services, and, in many respects, detrimental to both soldiers and seamen. Another objection to the use of men-of-war for this service was, that the men were crowded together in much too small a space, and the ventilation was greatly impeded, for a greater part of the men slept under the water line. This was so much the case, that there had been found a most remarkable difference between the health of troops conveyed out to a foreign station in men-of-war, as compared with that of troops who were sent out in transports.
Captain Gordonsaid, that, as to the objection of expense, it did not apply to the cases mentioned, or generally to ships-of-war in commission, where the expense, of course, had already been incurred. He had no particular objection to the transport ships themselves, he believed that the generality of them which had been taken up of late were very commodious and comfortable vessels; but it appeared to him that when ships of war were lying with their men in, the taking out their lower deck guns, and sending them to perform this sort of service, instead of lying idle and doing nothing, was rather a saving of expense than otherwise. With reference to the general question, it was well known that there was a class of ships called troop ships, the employment of which was, no doubt, much better than the employing men-of-war for this service; a great number of these vessels were now in China, and when they returned home, he believed it would be found that Government had a sufficient number of them to do all the work in this department of the public service, without employing either ships of war or transports.
§ Mr. Humesaid that the gallant Officer put forward as the defence of the Government in this matter, that there were a 315 number of ships in commission doing nothing; if so, they ought to come home and be laid up. As to the Rodney, it would seem that it was not even yet ready for the purpose to which it was to be applied. The employment of men-of-war in a case of emergency, such as that under which three such ships had been sent out with troops to China, was all very proper; but as to the Rodney, which was not yet gone, the question Was, why the conveyance of a thousand troops by that ship should cost the country 43,000l., when the same service could be done by trans port ships for 8,000l. or 10,000l. The hon. and gallant Member for Westminster the other night spoke of transport vessels as though they were not sea-worthy. He begged to ask the hon. and gallant Member whether more men-of-war had not foundered than transport ships? As to the comparative speed of the two modes of conveyance, experience had shown, in the particular cases of three men-of-war and three transport ships conveying troops to China, that while the average time occupied in the voyage by the ships of war was 165 days, the average time occupied by the transport ships was only 133.
Captain Gordonexplained that the reason why the Rodney had not sailed was, that the cavalry regiment which it was to convey was not ready.
§ Lord Arthur Lennoxhad on two occasions sailed in the command of troops on board men-of-war, and he could state most distinctly that the discipline of the soldiers had not, in either instance, suffered in the slightest degree from their being, and for a considerable time, in company with the seamen. As to transport vessels, they were regarded by the troops with perfect horror, and, as far as his experience went, he must say with considerable justice. He remembered, for instance, that on one voyage he went with troops, on board the India Trader transport, the men were engaged on fatigue parties, hard at work at the pumps, the whole way to Quebec.
§ Captain Layardbelieved there was no soldier but would prefer the chance of being shot at in preference to going a voyage in a transport ship. The troops apprehended far more danger from transports than from the enemy.
§ Captain Rousthought the hon. Member for Montrose had been an advocate for economy; but if on another occasion 316 187,000l. were voted for the hire of transports for the conveyance of her Majesty's troops, he should feel it his duty to divide the House upon it. While so many ships were in commission, the Government had no right whatever to lay out 6d. in the conveyance of troops. It was much better that line-of-battle ships should carry out troops than lay idle, with grass growing to their bottoms, with the seamen getting deteriorated, and the officers to be not worth their salt. With regard to the discipline of seamen being injured by contact with troops, he never knew an instance of it. The troops, when sent out in transport-ships, were packed more like so many Irish pigs than anything else; and officers in the service, being Members of that House, had often got up in their places and protested against the system.
§ Sir H. Douglashad experienced the comforts and discomforts to be enjoyed on board transports and men-of-war, and he knew that the troops preferred the latter to the former. After being kept at sea several days, between the Land's-end and Newfoundland, he was shipwrecked with troops under his command, and one-third of the detachment, the women and children, and one-third of the crew, were lost. A good feeling had existed between the two services, but the manner in which the soldiers were treated on board transport-ships was calculated to destroy it.
§ Mr. Humecontended that men-of-war were not so convenient and wholesome for the troops as the transports, because many of them, and frequently all, were put under water, that was to say under the water line. If there were abuses in the transport service that was the fault of the Government, and not of the system, which was a good one if properly carried out. It was impossible that 1,000 persons could be healthy when kept in the close hold of a line-of-battle-ship while crossing the line. He protested against the increased expense of 40,000l.,occasioned by sending out the two men-of-war.
§ Captain Roussaid the additional expense of 40,000l. existed only in the hon. Gentleman's imagination. The two line-of-battle ships would be kept in commission whether they went to the Cape of Good Hope or not. It was better that they should go out than that this money should be lavishly wasted in employing transports, as the hon. Member for Montrose wished. When they got into the 317 tropical climates they would have frequent opportunities of airing the ship, by opening the lower stern and deck ports and the scuttles, if they pleased. All the evils of being on board the line-of-battle ships existed nowhere but in the hon. Member's own most brilliant imagination.
§ Mr. Humeunderstood that there was no employment for those two ships; if so, they ought to be disposed of, instead of having more money spent upon them to make them serve as transports.
§ Captain Rousrepeated, for the information of the hon. Member, that the ships must be kept in commission, therefore he was mistaken upon the subject of expense. But was there a single Gentleman in the House who ever understood a subject as the hon. Member did?
§ Mr. C. Bullersaid, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman had a very convincing way of expressing himself. He understood that his defence of the Government was, that there was no additional expense to the country, and that because these ships were doing nothing, they were to be employed as proposed. It seemed to him that the common sense view of the case was this—if there were ships of war of no use, if they were doing nothing they should be laid up. But the opinion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman were wider than the imaginations of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, for he saw that a thrill of terror ran through the Treasury bench when the hon. and gallant Gentleman hinted that the ships of the line ought to be employed hereafter only in transporting troops. [" No, no."] He thought hon. Gentlemen had been rather hard upon the transport service, in the sweeping charges they had brought against it, and certainly they might produce very serious effects. No one could doubt that it was a system liable to abuse, and that the Government should guard against abuse; but he would tell hon. Gentlemen that the charges told not against the mercantile marine, but against the official heads of the public departments, who ought to exercise a proper vigilance in the matter.
Captain Gordonhad said nothing aganist the merchant ships; on the contrary, he was quite ready to give his testimony as to their efficiency, as far as he had observed. As to the ships of war, it was clear that in time of peace, a period which he trusted would be of long continuance, there was 318 nothing for the navy to do, but to keep in readiness in case its services were needed.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 100,335l. be granted for the expense of convict ships,
§ Mr. Humewished to call the attention of the Government to the accidents which had happened to several convict ships. He was not satisfied that great blame did not attach to the surveyors or examiners of those ships.
Captain Gordonwas not prepared to say what particular precaution could be taken to prevent a ship driving from her anchor in a tempest, nor was he aware that any convict ship had foundered at sea for many years past. As to ships going to pieces, when they struck upon a rock or upon a shoal, it was impossible to prevent this, build them ever so strongly. He must say, however, that the convict-ship which ran ashore at the Cape was found to have been in a very bad condition.
§ Mr. A. Chapmanwas understood to suggest that a regular establishment of ships, attached to the service, to be employed in rotation, should be kept ready for the transport of troops and convicts. The plan would give employment to junior post-captains, who were always anxious to be afloat.
§ Captain Rousobserved, that although the ships of the line would be proud to convey her Majesty's troops, there would naturally be some little delicacy felt in the navy with regard to a certain class of persons called convicts.
Vote agreed to.
The next vote was for 429,202l. to defray the charges under the Post-office department of the contract packet service.
§ Dr. Bowringsaid, that there were many items in these charges which appeared to him to be objectionable. There was the sum of 240,000l. for the West India mails, which he took to be a contract between the Government and the Royal West India Packet Company. Many complaints had been made of the irregularity of the mails. Fifty-four days nineteen hours out and home was the time allowed, including the collection of passengers and correspondence, for the voyage. It appeared from a report which he held in his hand, that the packet which sailed on the 1st of October took sixty-five days, which made her overdue ten days. The packet which sailed on the 1.5tb of October took sixty eight days, 319 which made a loss of thirteen days; the packet which started on the 1st of November took sixty-two days, being a loss of seven days; the packet sailing on the 15th of November was out seventy days, showing a loss of 15 days; the packet which sailed on the 1st of December took sixty-nine days, losing fourteen days; and the packet which sailed on the 15th of December, took seventy-one days, being overdue as many as sixteen days. These delays were of serious consequence to the public, and frequently occasioned great loss to the commercial community. He believed that some new arrangements had been lately entered into on the part of the Government; and he was anxious to inquire whether they were such as to insure greater regularity in future? The contract he believed, had been ruinous to the company, which, however, in itself, was not well managed. The contract had been too hastily agreed to. The present state of things was by no means satisfactory, and he hoped that this service would be made fully efficient.
§ Mr. S. Herbertwas fully aware that a great many complaints had been made about the West India mails; but it must be taken into consideration that the scheme was most gigantic and complicated, and that there was no possibility except by experience of judging how the routes would answer. The company certainly had met with very serious losses, and that because the scheme of routes was so very extensive; unless some reduction was made in the amount of work to be performed, it would be impossible for the company to go on with the first contract. A larger payment was therefore contemplated, and a different line of routes had been proposed, and at the expiration of the present contract, at the end of this month, a new scheme would be adopted, by which he hoped that the company would be put on a better footing, and the communications be made more regularly.
§ Dr. Bowringsaid, there was another point in connexion with these Post-office communications that was not undeserving: attention. Our communications with the Levant were less perfect than those of our neighbours. France sent three steamers to the Levant monthly, whilst we had only one. It was desirable, too, that we should extend our steam communication with the northern parts of Syria. With Beyrout there was already a com- 320 munication, but our intercourse with Scanderoon and the northern parts of Syria was exceedingly irregular. We ought, too, he thought, to extend our communication with the Black Sea. It was highly important that such a country as this should have the means of communicating through Constantinople with the Euxine. He believed that a proposition had been submitted to her Majesty's Government on some of these points; and he should be glad to know whether it was intended to take any steps with a view to acting on such proposals?
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, it was perfectly true that a proposition had been submitted to the Government, having for its object to establish a communication from Malta, Constantinople, and with Syria. That proposition was under consideration, and, in a short time, he had no doubt, but that he should be enabled to inform the hon. Member what was the decision at which they had arrived.
§ Dr. Bowringhad understood that the Swedish Government had made an offer to facilitate the communication between this country and Sweden, and further that they had proposed to take on themselves a considerable proportion of the expense of such communication. He should be glad to know whether the Government had any intention of increasing the facilities of intercourse with that country?
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequerreplied, that the question put by the hon. Member was not one which he could at that moment satisfactorily answer.
§ Mr. Williamsmade an observation which was nearly inaudible as to the great increase in the vote for Post-office purposes.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that undoubtedly the introduction of steam had caused a great addition to the expenses of communication, but that the public gained in time what they lost in money.
§ Mr. Humethought that the increased facilities of our communication with India would alone almost warrant the additional expenditure. We could now communicate with Bomby in less than thirty days; and certainly in the present, and what was likely to be the future state of India, it was highly important that that communication should be maintained.
§ Vote agreed to.