HC Deb 24 February 1843 vol 66 cc1277-300
Mr. Hume,

on the Order of the Day being read for going into a committee of supply on the Navy Estimates, said, that he was anxious to call the attention of the House, and of the Government, to the present state of the revenue and the expenditure as compared with former years, and to the condition of the industry of the country at this time. He had been anxious to state his opinions on that important subject on the late motion of Lord Howick, to consider that part of her Majesty's Speech, which stated, That the diminished receipt of the ordinary sources of revenue must in part be attributed to the reduced consumption of many articles caused by the depression of the manufacturing industry of the country, which has so long prevailed, and which her Majesty has so deeply lamented. But he had not then an opportunity. He must observe, that although the debate had continued for five nights, no hon. Member had adverted to the amount of the diminution of the revenue, or to the causes producing it, which he (Mr. Hume) considered as the best means of bringing the condition of the country fairly before Parliament. He submitted to the House that it ought to be the practice to have estimates of the probable revenue and of the proposed expenditure for the current year laid before them previously to being called upon to vote any part of the estimates for the naval and military services, and he regretted that the Government had not adopted that plan. He would therefore state, that it appeared from the annual finance accounts, that from the years 1831 to 1841, the total gross revenue of the country had been of nearly the same amount in each year, varying from 51,000,000l. to 52,000,000l. sterling, but that, the expenditure in the same period had varied from forty-eight and a-half to fifty-four and a half millions sterling. It was important to a correct view of the state of the finances to look at them for the last ten years past, and to understand clearly that the amount of taxes received from the public had not been diminished to any extent until within the past year, when he should show an alarming decrease; and he would further say, that the deficiency in the Exchequer was produced entirely by war expenditure, which he (Mr. Hume) contended, had all along been unjust and uncalled for.— From the years 1831 to 1835, the expenditure had been reduced from fifty-one and a half to forty-eight and a half millions sterling. But from 1836 to 1842, it had increased from forty-eight and a half to fifty-four and a half millions sterling. During the five years 1832 to 1836, there had been a surplus revenue of 7,487,030l. surplus of revenue, in 1832, 614,758l.; in 1843, 1,513,084l.; in 1834, 1,608,186l.; in 1835, 1,620,940l.; in 1836,2,130,092l.; total surplus in five years of revenue over expenditure, 7,487,030l.; but during the last six years, from 1837 to 1841, the expenditure had exceeded the income by 10,188,659l.; excess of expenditure over revenue in 1837, 655,760l.; in 1838,345,228l.; in 1839, 1,512,792l.; in 1840, 1,593,971l.; in 1841, 2,101,369l.; in 1842, 3,979,539l.; total excess of expenditure in six years over revenue 10,188,659l.; and, by that means the financial difficulties of the country had been brought on. He did not blame the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) for that increase, so much as he did the late Minis try, although he must say, that both sides of the House were culpable in having unnecessarily increased the military establishments of the country. The estimates for the current year 1843℃4, have been re duced by the sum of 832,635l. below those of 1842–3; but, as the expenditure of the year 1842–3, exceeded that of the preceding year 1841–2, by nearly the same amount the expenditure of the current year will be thus brought back only to that of 1841–2. The expenditure, exclusive of the charges of collection, was in 1841–2, 50,185,729l.; and in 1842–3, 50,945,170, or 759,441l.; in 1842–3, more

1842–3. 1843–4 DECREASE IN 1843–4
The Navy Estimates were 6,818,173 6,382,990 435,183
The Army Estimates were 6,364,426 6,225,103 139,323
The Ordnance Estimates were 2,107,271 1,849,142 258,129
£15,289,870 £14,457,235 £832,635

The House had voted 100,846 men and officers (exclusive of 28,635, for the East Indies), and to retain the whole year 95,106 for the regular army; it is proposed to keep up 39,000 seamen and marines for the navy, and 8,577 men and officers for the artillery department, making in the aggregate 142,683 officers and men for the naval and military service of the current year, exclusive of the staff of eighty-nine regiments of disembodied militia in Great Britain, and of thirty-eight regiments in Ireland; and exclusive of 14,664 yeomanry corps in Great Britain, and of near 20,000 regularly trained police in the United Kingdom. That was, he contended, an armed force not required in time of peace, and a large portion of it in the present state of the finances, ought immediately to be reduced. He saw no reason why the establishments should not be reduced to what they were in the year 1835–6, when Parliament voted 81,272 men of all ranks for the army; 26,500 seamen and marines for the naval service, and 7,752 for the engineers and artillery; making an aggregate of 115,223 men and officers for that year, instead of 142,683 as proposed for this year. The expenditure would be found to bear a proportionate increase. In 1835℃6, the charge for the army, navy, and ordnance, was 11,657,846l.—Payments of the army, 6,486,143l.; navy 4,099,429l.; ordnance, 1,151,914, total, 11,657,486l.; In 1835–6, the charge for the army, and navy, and ordnance was, 11,657,846, whilst, for the year ended July last, the charge runs 16,169,030l., being no less than 4,51.1,544l. more in

than in 1841–2, as appears from the balance sheets of the net revenue and expenditure for those years. By the statement in his hand, the estimates for the Naval and Military services, on the current year already laid before the House, amounted to 14,457,235l.; whilst those of 1842–3, amounted to 15,289,820l.; shewing a decrease in this year of 823,635l.;—viz.:

this year than in 1835℃6. It was easy to account for that great increase of charge by the unjust, and meddling policy of the late ministry and he hoped a lesson would be learned, there from, and prove useful for the future. In 1836, the impolitic and oppressive acts of the Government in Canada rendered the Canadians, who only demanded responsible Government discontented; and 10,000 regular troops, with a large naval force, were sent out to coerce them; and this country has been at the expense of one and a quarter millions yearly, in maintaining that military force there until last Autumn, when the right hon. Baronet conceded the just demands of the Canadians—giving them responsible Government and peace, and contentment have been the fruits of that act of justice, and sound policy. He thanked the right hon. Baronet for that act. It is stated that 3,000 of the regular troops have been withdrawn from Canada, and he (Mr. Hume) saw no reason why 10,000 should not be brought home and disbanded, by which more than one million sterling of expences, would be saved, and that would enable the Government to take off the import duty on cotton, and on corn, which now injured our manufactures. The Canadians did not require any troops to protect their Government, and he submitted that not more than 2,000 regulars should be left in the whole of British North America.—In 1839 the noble Lord (Palmerston) began to interfere in the affairs of Syria, and that meddling policy where no British interest was concerned, had led to an expense of near two millions a year since that lime, and had further created anarchy and war, where all before his interference was security and peace. In proof of the heavy charge to England, he would state that in 1821 we had only twelve ships of war, all sizes, in the Mediterranean, and Sir George Cockburn had stated, in evidence, before the Finance Committee in 1828, that he was not aware that more than seven or eight ships would be required in time of peace, to protect the trade of the country in that sea. But by the interference in the affairs of Turkey we had offended France and risked the peace of Europe. We had while professing to be at peace, carried war to the coasts of Syria, where in February and March 1841 we had fifty ships of war of all sizes carrying 1,834 guns, and 15,074 men. The waste of life and property was great, and all to gratify, apparently, some private object of the noble Lord at the expense of the nation. He did not deny that our navy had manifested great vigour and great power, and that they had acquired professional glory in their attacks upon Syria, but it was in a bad cause, those efforts ought to have been reserved for a better one. The war with China now happily terminated was another cause of the increase of our naval force. He mentioned all these acts of aggressions on our part, as the causes of the increased expenditure, and he called upon the House to bring back the establishments to a moderate scale. The differences with the United States had been happily settled—responsible government had been given to Canada —Syria had been delivered over to the Porte—peace had been concluded with China, and there was no plea for supporting such war establishments in time of peace. Upon these grounds he applied to the right hon. Baronet to reconsider the estimates for the ensuing year, and to make at least a reduction commensurate with the deficiency of the revenue. It was lamentable to observe in the estimates, that the half-pay and pensions and all the ineffective charges continue nearly as high as they were immediately after the war twenty years ago. The House was now called upon to continue these large war establishments in a time of profound peace, although the revenue was giving way in every branch, and although the commerce and the manufactures of the country, the real sources of our wealth were decreasing every day. He could scarcely believe that the right hon. Baronet was really aware of the distressed state of the country, or instead of standing still, he would endeavour by farther advances towards freetrade to afford relief to prevent the distress from becoming universal. He (Mr. Hume) would read the resolution of the Common Council of the City of London, on the 8th of December last, exhibiting in his opinion the most correct view of the state of the trade and industry of the country, which he had seen; and having been agreed to by the Corporation of London, rendered it worthy of serious attention.

HUMPHREY,

Mayor.

"A Common Council holden in the Chamber of the Guildhall of the City of London, on Thursday, the 8th day of December, 1842,

"Resolved, that the continued and increasing depression of the manufacturing, commercial, and agricultural interests of this country, and the wide spreading distress of the working classes, are most alarming; manufacturers without a market, and shipping without a freight, capital without investment, trade without a profit, and farmers struggling under a system of high rents, with prices falling as the means of consumption fail; a working population rapidly increasing, and a daily decreasing demand for its labour; union houses overflowing as workshops are deserted; Corn-laws to restrain importation, and inducing a starving people to regard the laws of their country with a deep sense of their injustice. These facts call for the immediate application of adequate remedies."

He (Mr. Hume) called upon the right hon. Baronet, in the language of that resolution, to apply the adequate remedies, and to apply them before it was too late. These remedies were the repeal of the Corn-laws and the removal of all restrictions and protective duties on trade; together with a large reduction of the taxation of the country. All our sufferings are caused by heavy taxation and by the restrictions on trade, and chiefly by bad commercial laws. No effect ever followed its cause more directly than the diminution of our trade, the decrease of employment, the increase of poverty and crime, have followed monopoly and heavy taxation; and there is no appearance that these effects will cease, until their causes are removed. Having pointed out the causes of the increased expenditure, he would now point out the extent of the decrease in the ordinary revenue of the country in the last year alluded to in her Majesty's speech. The right hon. Baronet in his speech on the budget on the 11th of March 1842 estimated the net ordinary revenue for the current year at 48,350,000l. but we had realised much less than that estimate. The total ordinary revenue for the year ending 5th of January 1842 was 47,915,720l.; for the year ending 5th January 1843, only 46,700,890l. Showing an apparent deficiency of 1,216,681l. But the sum of 1,882,585l. arising from casual revenue must be added to that deficiency, and then the real decrease will be 3,099,216l. in the year, that sum of 1,882,585l. was made up of 571,055l. from income-tax, of 410,000l. silver received from China, and of 801,530l. received in duty on corn more than in the previous year. Duties received from imports of corn in 1841, 575,407l.; in 1842 1,376,937l.; making 801,530l. more in 1842 than in 1841. If the net revenue for the quarter ending 5th January, 1843, from Customs, Excise, Stamps and Taxes, be compared with the quarter ending 5th January, 1842, the decrease amounts to 1,379,057l. at which rate the decrease in the four quarters ensuing will amount to 5,516,228, viz., in, customs a decrease of 581,185l.; in Excise, 717,262; in Stamps 56,763l.; in axes and Crown lands 23,047l.; making in the quarter 1,379,857l.; The right hon. Baronet it was said, expected to receive between five and six millions sterling from the income-tax, instead of the 3,900,000l. which he estimated in March last. He (Mr. Hume) doubted that amount, but if it were raised, it would only increase the general distress and cause greater deficiency in the ordinary revenue. The decrease of revenue arose from the decrease of the consumption of articles paying excise and customs duties, and poverty amongst the industrious classes was the cause of that decrease. He must further observe, that a great mistake had been committed by the right hon. Baronet, in increasing the taxation by imposing the income-tax. He had stated when that tax was under discussion that the amount of 52,000,000l. sterling raised in the past year, was more than the state of trade and commerce and the general circumstances of the country would bear. It was asserted that that tax would not fall upon the poor—that per sons having more income than 150l.; a year would pay the Income-tax, and that those persons having less would not pay any, but be relieved by the reduction which the new tariff would make in the price of food and other articles of consumption. That was a great mistake on the part of the right hon. Baronet. He would find that almost every person subject to the tax was discharging horses, carriages, and servants, or reducing his expenses in some other way to meet the charge upon his income. These reductions fell chiefly on the working classes and partly on the revenue—both would suffer. A large proportion, perhaps 70 per cent of the public revenue was derived from taxes upon articles of general consumption by the mass of the people, such as sugar, butter, cheese, raisins, beer, &c, and the low wages and want of work sufficiently accounted for their inability to purchase, and for the deficiency of the Revenue. Unless, therefore, something was soon done to give employment to the people, and to increase their ability to consume their usual articles, the ordinary revenue must continue to decline, and the deficiency of the Revenue would soon be so great, that, instead of getting rid of the Income-tax, at the end of three years as contemplated, it would be requisite to increase that tax to 10 per cent on all property. It appeared from the Report on the Customs' Duties, that 22,000,000 out of the 23,000,000 of Customs' Duties were derived from seventeen articles imported. Those articles were all of primary necessity, and consumed chiefly by the working classes, and by examining the list on that report they would see how the decrease of consumption must affect the Revenue. He would state the decrease on some of them. The average price of sugar had been less in 1842 than in any of the previous five years—it had been only 34s; 9d;. per cwt., and yet the quantity consumed had been less than in 1841, and the Revenue had been 240,000l.; less. The consumption of cheese, butter, raisins, &c, had all decreased one-fourth. There was, indeed, a general decrease of the trade and navigation of the country—the harbours were full of ships unemployed, and every branch of commerce was depressed. Workmen in thousands were without work, and vagrancy and crime on the increase. Unless, therefore, the right hon. Baronet gave us free-trade, we should be unable to keep up the present taxation of the country. The public faith with the public creditor would be endangered, and he cautioned the House not to drive mas- ters to extremes, and risk the serious consequences which we were threatened by the present course of monopoly and extravagance. The land deserved its value for the trade of the country, and the taxes of the country were principally paid by those who earned it? And he, therefore, warned the landed Gentlemen, and the monied men not to persevere in the support of monopolies which were undermining the real sources of our wealth. Our legislation of last year had injured the shipping of the country; when the tariff was passed, he (Mr. Plume) had strongly objected to the export duty on coals, and the returns now before us were, he thought, a strong proof of the impolicy of that tax. In the six months ending 5th January, 1842, when there was no duty, there were 948,227 tons of coals exported. In the six months ending 5th January, 1843, after the duty was imposed, the quantity exported was only 621,149 tons, showing a decrease of 327,078 tons, which would have given cargoes to 1,635 colliers of 200 tons each. That tax the Corn-laws might explain and account for the deplorable state of the British shipping, and yet, strange to say, the ship owners generally supported all monopolies. It free-trade was fully carried out, England, being the greatest market in the world, would be as cheap if not the cheapest; and our artizans and merchants, being thereby placed on an equality with the rest of the world as to the price of the necessaries of life, would soon revive from their present depressed state, and the public revenue would at the same time recover. The present is the time to set the example to the world, of a determined liberal system of trade by at once admitting corn from America, as it is quite certain that for every bushel imported an equivalent value of manufactures would be exported, and thus work and wages would immediately be given to the unemployed, and revenue to the State. Both countries would benefit from that free-trade, and the example would be followed soon by the rest of the world. England would soon become as she has before been, prosperous and happy. He was confident that the trade and manufactures of the country could not be all relieved until the abolition of all protective duties; and that consideration brought him back to the Corn-laws as the great, though not the only cause of the present appaling distress. The Anti Corn-law League, that much maligned association, had been charged with desiring to obtain free-trade in food, and yet to keep up protection for their manufactures. But that was not true; at the first meeting of this association they passed the following resolution:— That this meeting, while it demands the total and unconditional repeal of all laws, imposing duties upon, or restricting the importation of corn, and other articles of subsistence, is prepared to resign all claims to protection on home manufactures, and to carry out to their fullest extent, both as it respects agriculture and manufacture, the true and peaceful principles of free-trade, by removing all existing obstacles to the unrestricted interchange of industry and capital among all nations. London, Brown's Hotel, 5th January, 1839.

He also held in his hand a resolution of the Dundee merchants in July 1842, which, as far as that great branch the linen trade was concerned, was conclusive. That while this meeting claims as a natural and inherent right the privilege of exchanging the productions of their industry freely with the corn and provisions of other nations, they are willing that the so called pro lection enjoyed by the linen trade of this country, should be at the same time abolished, and the principles of free-trade applied to the productions of this and every other country.

With these declarations, and under the existing financial difficulties of the country, the House ought to adopt free-trade, the chief if not only remedy he saw for the distresses of the country. It was not in a financial view alone that he advocated economy, and retrenchment, and free-trade,—the moral degradation and the state of crime produced by the physical distress, called for immediate attention. The increase of poverty and of the poor-rates in the manufacturing districts had been brought before the House on the late debate, and he was anxious the House should know what was the state of Mary lebone parish, in which he resided. In 1838, the poor in the workhouse were 1271, the casual poor 2,206, and the rates amounted to 8,674s;. In 1839,40,241; all these had increased; and in 1842, the poor in the workhouse were 1,771, and the casual poor 5,169, whilst the rates for the poor were 17.833l.;. He considered so large an increase in that rich metropolitan parish as indicating a very distressed state of the working population. The state of morals and of crime in the country might be judged of by the late returns laid before the House, by which the number of prisoners had been increasing each year for several years past. In the year 1840, the large number of 142,525 prisoners of all kinds had passed through the prisons of England and Wales.* In such a state of poverty and crime—of depressed trade and financial difficulties, it was impossible the country could long go on. He had shown that Corn-laws and other monopolies, with profuse expenditure, were the causes of these evils. He had shown that the estimates for the naval and military services the year were 15,000,00l.; thus being about 5,000,000l. sterling more than in 1835, although the country was now in general peace; and as he had failed to obtain from the House any support for the moderate reduction of 10,000 men from the vote of 100,846 men and officers for the army, he would not propose any reduction in the navy, but leave the extravagant establishment upon the responsibility of the right hon. Baronet. They must also recollect that there was a grand addition to the poor-rates, and to the county-rates, from the increase of the police, and of prosecution forms, which, with the exactions under the Income-tax, would lessen the means of the middle classes, and thus increase the poverty of the nation. The pressure on all classes was gradually rising; and, unless a change of system was speedily made, it might he too late to provide for the financial difficulties, and for the maintenance of the population; and the consequences may be to that extent, to risk the peace and institutions of the country. There was a great responsibility on Parliament at this time; and especially on the right hon. Baronet, who commanded a large majority in both Houses. If work was not given to the unemployed by the promotion of manufactures,—if commerce was not released from its present restrictions, the danger to the State, as expressed some years ago by the right hon. Baronet, now Secretary for the Home Department, was worthy of attention. The feeling of the public must be hostile to the present Corn-laws—in violation of public opinion they cannot long retain an exclusive advantage. The contest is fearful; for on what ground will it be decided? On the very topic which inflames to madness; that *Porter's Tables, part 10 243. hunger which breaks through walls, will be arrayed against them, reason will be heard no longer, the barriers of society will be broken down; and estates, distinctions, honors, swept away in one resistless torrent.

He had thought it right to make these observations to the House, and to state the results of his observations,—his only object being to promote the interests of the community. He felt that the country had not been for many years in so difficult a position as at present; and unless remedial measures were taken, and that speedily, the most lamentable consequences must ensue; and these means were, in his views, by economy and retrenchment in every branch of the public expenditure, and by repeal of the Corn-laws and of all restrictions upon commerce. He would add, that as all these were all in the power of Parliament to effect, the responsibility and the future must be upon them.

Mr. Williams

expressed his decided disapprobation of the immense amount of the estimates prepared for the present year. He considered that the distressed state of the country, the deteriorated condition of the productive classes, the great amount of the expenditure above the revenue during the last seven years, and the great falling off in the trade of the country as shown by a return lately laid upon the table of the House, which proved that upon thirteen of the great articles of our export the falling off in the last year, as compared with the year preceding, amounted to 3,800,000; he considered that these were circumstances which imperatively called upon the House to look at the present position of the country, and to ponder seriously upon the difficulties in which it was involved. In the last six or seven years the calculations of the Finance Minister as to the productiveness of the revenue had been erroneous. In no one of these years had the anticipated amount of revenue been realised. In every one of these years the expenditure had exceeded the income. The gross expenditure of the country from the year 1837 up to the end of 1842, had exceeded the amount of the revenue by no less a sum than 10,000,000l. sterling. He contended that the budget should every year be developed before any votes were taken. In former times the Treasury used to exercise a very stringent control over the several departments; but now, he believed, the Treasury did not charge itself with the examination of the various items in the votes before they were submitted to the House. Professional men settled the navy, army, and ordnance estimates, and every one knew they were naturally inclined to look more to display than to demands of real necessity in their several departments. Until they adopted some system of control very different from what now prevailed, it was vain to expect any economy or retrenchment. Before a single shilling of public money was voted, he would have the estimates referred to a select committee, which should go over every item, and be satisfied of its necessity. He wished the right hon. Baronet would inform the House what reasons induced the Government to keep up so expensive an establishment as was at present maintained. The changes for half-pay and pensions called for particular attention. He found that, in these items, there was a considerable increase in the estimates for the present year, and he wished to know what circumstances had led to this increase? He would direct the attention of the House to the amount of the estimates for the half-pay and superannuation pensions in 1818, when the country had only just been extricated from a long and expensive war; and he was surprised to find that the estimates for the present year exhibited a great increase, under this head, as compared with those of that period. After twenty-six years of peace, he found that the estimates of this year showed an increase under this head of about 114,000l.; on the estimates of 1818. Then with respect to the civil pensions awarded to persons who had been employed in Somerset-house and other Government offices, he found that in 1818 the estimates under this head amounted to 99,661l.; in 1821 they were 105,000l.; in 1822 they were 126,000l.; and for this year they were 168,000l.; showing an increase of 68,500l.; over those of 1818. He thought that, after 1818, great reductions might have been effected in this department' in the way of superannuation; but it appeared that, after 26 or 27 years of profound peace, the amount of estimates under this head had been nearly doubled. He thought this circumstance required some explanation. But, when a more careful analysis of these estimates was instituted, the difference between the amount voted in 1818 and that now required appeared still more extraordinary. In 1818 the estimate under the head of half-pay was 984,000l., and under that of pensions and superannuations 145,000l.; while, in the estimates now before the House, the amount of half-pay was 746,000l., and the amount of pensions and superannuations 497,000l. It appeared, therefore, that on the estimates of 1818, under the head of half-pay, a reduction of 238,000l. had been effected, while in the pensions and superannuation allowances there had been an increase of 352,000l. But there was another circumstance to which he would direct the notice of the House, and with respect to which he thought some explanation ought to be afforded by the Government. In 1818 the estimate for pensions to the widows and children of naval officers was 12,030l. The estimates under this head had since gone on gradually increasing, and now he found that the item had reached the amount of 196,000l. In 1818 the allowances on the compassionate list were 5,000l.; they were for this year, estimated at 15,000l., showing an increase of 10,000l.; There was one item in which he found a very considerable reduction had been effected —the bounty to chaplains. It seemed that the chaplains were not now regarded with much favour; for while in 1819 the estimate under this head was 2,000l.; it was now only 283l.; He thought that the pensions granted to widows of officers were far more considerable than was necessary or politic. It was true that in many cases where valuable services gave a title to them these pensions ought to be granted; but he thought the system at present pursued with reference to these grants was calculated to lead to a great increase in the item. He considered that, as so good a provision was made for their widows, old naval officers might not un frequently become the husbands of hand some young women, and therefore a great encouragement was afforded for increasing this department of the estimates. He must strongly appeal to the Government to make a careful examination of these estimates. The Government ought to have some regard to the condition of the country, and to undertake a revision of the whole system; and he was convinced they must feel that they were not justified in maintaining the present vast establishment, when they found that, at a former period, when this country was placed in circumstances precisely similar to those in which it now stood with relation to foreign countries, the expenditure was so much less for the items to which he had referred. He was aware that, if he brought forward a. motion on the subject, such a course would not enable him to attain his object. He had always felt great reluctance in opposing any vote of public money for the service of the navy; for he considered that the Government of this country was bound, by the strongest obligations, and by regard for the public welfare, to maintain our naval force in a state of efficiency. At the same time, however, he could not but condemn the vast and unnecessary expenditure which was incurred in the items of half-pay and pensions. In fact, the naval half-pay and pensions constituted to all intents and purposes, another pension list. He would now beg the attention of the Government to the effective service and half-pay and pension list of naval officers. There were, in the list before the House, 184 Admirals, and seven who were in the receipt of pensions; but how many were there on the effective list? Only ten admirals commanding, and three holding situations in the dock-yards: so that there were only thirteen in the service, while 191 were on half-pay. There were 613 captains, many were besides on the pension list, and of that class, only sixty-four were on active service. The comparative number of commanders and lieutenants on active service was also very small. He found that the estimates for this year, under the head of "half-pay," exceeded by 30,000l.; the estimates of last year. He was sure that no one would grudge the rewards which had been bestowed upon the gallant officers who had performed such important services in China, and even the poor of the country would gladly contribute towards such rewards; but this was not the class of men on whom pensions and rewards were bestowed. They were awarded to the connections of the aristocracy—to the friends and relatives of Members of this and the other House of Parliament—while hard-fighting and gallant men, who had bled in defence of their country, were too frequently passed over and were left unrewarded. He thought the Government ought to endeavour to make the expenditure of the country agree with the revenue —not try and raise a revenue to meet an extravagant expenditure. He remembered reading some observations of Lafayette, addressed to the Parliament of Paris, in 1788, when additional taxation was proposed, which had made a strong impression on his mind, Lafayette appealed in the strongest terms to the aristocracy, telling them the course they ought to pursue was this:—to reduce the expenditure to meet the revenue, not to raise the revenue to support an extravagant expenditure. If the aristocracy of France had adopted that excellent counsel they might have been saved, but they rejected it; and, in three or four years afterwards, that aristocracy —perhaps the proudest and the richest that ever existed—were swept from the land.

Sir Robert Peel

had listened with attention to the speeches of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, and he thought, that many points which they had discussed, would have been much better deferred, till the estimates were under consideration. If the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams) had postponed his observations with respect to the civil, the superannuation, and the naval and military pension lists, until the estimates were brought specifically before the House, a much better opportunity would have been given for affording explanations on the points to which he had referred. But the House must not take it for granted, although the hon. Gentleman stated, that he had bestowed much time on his calculations, and was convinced of their entire correctness, that the compliment which the hon. Gentleman had paid himself was entirely deserved. The hon. Gentleman said, "Look at the amount of the estimates for civil superannuations in 1818, and compare them with those of the present year; see what an increase has taken place;" but the hon. Gentlemen should know, that a very great proportion of that increase was caused by the reductions which had been made in the civil establishment. In 1830, the Duke of Wellington's Government made considerable redactions in the civil establishment; and, subsequently, similar reductions were effected by the Governments of Lord Grey and Lord Melbourne. But the hon. Gentleman must be aware, that it was impossible to effect such reductions without making provision for the parties who were thereby displaced. The hon. Gentleman must know, that it might be perfectly consistent with sound economy, and with practical permanent reduction, to exhibit an increase in the amount of civil superannuations. The hon. Gentleman said, "I have gone through these estimates; I have compared them with the estimates of former years, and I find an enormous increase in the amount of naval pensions." That was true; but when the hon. Mem- ber compared the estimates for the present year with those of a former year, he should bear in mind, that at the former period, Greenwich Hospital possessed large funds applicable to naval pensions, of which it was now deprived, and that, consequently, that House was called upon to supply the deficiency. The hon. Gentleman said, "Look at the immense amount which is given to the widows and orphans of officers; I cannot conceive what is the reason of this." He begged to inform the hon. Member, that the increase to which he alluded had been made in conformity with the recommendation of a Parliamentary committee; and he would advise the hon. Gentleman not to be too eager in future for the appointment of Parliamentary committees. He would advise the hon. Member to place more confidence in the Executive Government with regard to the effecting of retrenchment, and not to refer matters of this kind to Parliamentary committees; for his (Sir R. Peel's) experience had shown him that the Members of such committees, under the influence of the kindest motives—from a feeling of sympathy towards the friends and relatives of the gallant defenders of their country, were prone to say, "Let us be liberal; compare these services with civil services;" and the result was an increase in the estimates. He would tell the hon. Member what had taken place, within his own experience, with regard to the pensions of the widows and orphans of officers. Formerly, the funds for providing pensions for widows and orphans were mainly supplied by the contributions of naval officers, which produced, he believed, a sum of more than 100,000l. It was, however, considered unjust that naval officers should be taxed to furnish a fund for this purpose; and a Parliamentary committee said:— It is not fair to levy contributions for supplying pensions for these widows and orphans upon the officers; we, therefore, recommend Parliament to abolish this system, and to undertake themselves to provide means for the payment. That recommendation might or might not be a just one; but the circumstance showed that Parliamentary committees were not always favourable to reductions in expenditure, and it accounted for the increase in the estimates under this head, which had so much surprised the hon. Gentleman. A comparison had been made between the change in the year 1791, for naval, military, and ordnance services, with the charge for the present year; but the hon. Gentleman had totally omitted the fact, that in the first case the estimate was only for Great Britain; in the present day it was the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. The hon. Gentleman said that the constitutional practice of the House was not to vote the supplies until the ways and means were before Parliament. He apprehended that the constitutional practice had always been to vote the supplies before they voted the ways and means, and that Parliament never sanctioned the principle that they should impose taxes in the first instance, without knowing what the exigencies of the public service were; but that, on the contrary, they should first determine what amount the public necessities required, and then supply the means. Neither of the hon. Gentlemen had made any motion on this occasion. Of that he did not complain, though no one was less disposed to undervalue the matters to which they had called the attention of the House. The hon. Gentlemen the Members for Montrose and Coventry must both excuse him for saying, without meaning to express any doubt as to the importance of the matters which they had pressed upon the attention of the House, for no one could be less disposed than he was to undervalue the subject which they had spoken on that evening, that finding they had not had an opportunity in the four or five nights last week that the subject of the distress of the country was debated of making their speeches on that question, they had taken that opportunity of delivering them. But he hoped that the effect of the hon. Gentleman's speeches would not be to raise a general discussion, and he would not follow the hon. Gentlemen through the whole of their speeches, because he thought that the House would be unwilling to go fully into the subject on the present occasion; but if he were so to follow the hon. Member for Montrose he thought he could prove to him that his assertion that the consumption of tea had fallen off was not correct; he thought he could prove to him also, that the consumption of tobacco had not fallen off. He thought, moreover, he could prove to him that there was no reduction in the consumption of coffee. The fact was, as the hon. Gentleman would remember, that there had been a reduction of duty on coffee, and consequently a smaller amount of duty paid did not necessarily indicate a falling off in the amount of the article consumed. The hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. W. Williams) also, he thought, had come to some erroneous conclusions on some important points, but the most important matter that the hon. Gentleman insisted on was this, that the House ought first to ascertain what was the amount of the revenue before they proceeded to vote the estimates. It was quite true that a private individual might do something like this with advantage; it might be possible for him to find accurately the state of his yearly income, and reduce his expenditure accordingly by retrenching superfluities; but in a great country like this such a course was wholly impracticable; the amount of expenditure must necessarily depend on a variety of considerations, and the amount of revenue which might be required in any year could not always be made to depend even on considerations of the distress of the country; something must depend on the state of the relations of this country with other powers; something must depend on the likelihood of war,—something must depend on the necessity of supporting the power of maintaining ourselves on a suitable footing with regard to the force kept up by other countries; and the fact was, that if the House, acting on this principle, were to reduce the expenditure so as to admit of a reduction of revenue, they might speedily find themselves in a situation in which they would be led into increased expenditure. In the year 1822 they reduced the expenditure, but that reduction the hon. Gentleman would find led to increased expense. By reducing the military force they had found it was necessary to increase the expense under that head; for it became necessary in consequence to increase the amount of military pensions, and altogether there was a greater expense. Differing, then, from the hon. Gentleman on several points, with many of the principles of the hon. Gentleman he fully agreed. In the present state of the country especially there was every disposition on the part of her Majesty's Government to make efforts to accomplish a reduction of expenditure; but still, looking at all the circumstances of this country, and the situation in which it stood with respect to foreign powers, he said, that supposing the produce of the income-tax should show at the end of next year a material increase of revenue, it would be unjust to calculate upon it as if permanent, intended as it was for present purposes. Under the pressure of taxation which was felt in this country that would be unjust—he said under the pressure of taxation as felt in this country, for he did not agree with the noble Lord that taxation pressed on no country so little as on this. On the contrary, he was confident that the pressure of taxation was the cause which made us unable to undertake many invaluable improvements incapacitated us from making those sudden and prompt exertions which the exigencies of the state might require. But, however this might be, he must say that when the House looked at the estimates of the present year they must have reference, not to the years 1791 or 1822, but to the situation of the country at present; for they could not make reductions in the military and naval establishments with the ease some gentlemen among them did. It was perfectly true that two great wars had been brought to a happy conclusion; but it did not necessarily follow that Parliament could reduce at once the naval and military establishments to what they were before those wars began, or to what they were in 1822 or 1791; they must look not merely to the desireableness of an immediate reduction of the expenditure, but at the very great distance at which those wars had been carried on. Take the case of China. It was quite true that the termination of the war with China would relieve the country from all the expense that was necessary to keep up an active state of hostilities; but although a treaty had been agreed to, the House should remember that it had not yet been ratified by the Emperor of China. In carrying on hostilities with a country so remote and so powerful as that, it might not be consistent with sound policy to loosen too soon the hold we have upon China. We had concluded a peace with China upon our own terms by the exercise of great valour, great perseverance, and also he was confident by the exercise of great forbearance, convincing the public mind of China that we were not the barbarians they described in their public proclamations. He believed that the people of China were surprised by the conduct of our troops. This he inferred from the apathy of the people when they discovered we were not subject to the charge of being that barbarous race which we had been represented to be. But the House must bear in mind that the Emperor of China had objected to sign the treaty until her Majesty Queen Victoria had signed it. Her Majesty had done so, and it had been sent out to the Emperor, but it had not yet been ratified. He therefore thought there would not be much difference as to the policy they should pursue in not evacuating the possessions they had obtained there altogether for a reliance on the forbearance or good faith of the Emperor of China. That he conceived was a competent reason, although the war had been brought to a most successful conclusion, which it must be a satisfaction to be able to maintain with good-will and amicable feeling towards the Emperor of China, why this country should continue to keep a considerable force in the Chinese Seas; He thought the hon. Gentleman would not dispute this. [Mr. Hume : I did not say a word about China. I spoke of Syria.] He was only mentioning the case of China, to show that it did not follow that, because in 1842 the war with China had been brought to a successful issue, therefore in 1843 the expenditure of the country could be reduced to what it was before that war commenced. But he thanked the hon. Gentleman for having mentioned Syria for he (Sir. R. Peel) conceived it was a strong point in favour of the argument which he was then urging. The hon. Member said, that last year we had on the coast of Syria, in the Mediterranean, fifty ships of war, and that we had since reduced them to forty; and the hon. Gentleman asked why this was done? For some reason or other, we had such confidence in the sound sense and good feeling of the French nation generally, that we were not disposed to consider the ravings of the newspapers as the expression of the public sentiments. We knew that the French government and the thinking portion of the nation were desirous to remain on good terms with us. The newspapers, whatever might be their power, were not always the organs of the national will. There was a great commercial community growing up in France, which would ultimately constitute the public of that country, and would have the power of making its opinions and sentiments known and understood independently of the agency of the newspaper press. However important newspapers might be as auxiliaries in supporting and vindicating the honour of their country, yet they were not at all times to be regarded as the exponents of a nation's feelings. But we had confidence in the good sense of the community of France, and, without disputing about whether one country or the other had forty sail or fifty sail in the Mediterranean, we were convinced, so long as a good feeling existed between the two countries, whether one or the other chose to keep up a greater or less force, they might depend upon it would not increase the danger. Nothing was gained by maintaining an undue amount of force without necessity, and he believed that there was that progress of sound opinion in France, that if any party could for a moment create a war, for the mere purpose of indulging a spirit of military bravado or of unjust aggression, there would be raised throughout Europe a feeling of indignant resistance at its injustice, more formidable than had ever before been known. He was now speaking of Syria, and did not wish to introduce any party considerations, but he might say that he hoped by the end of this year, instead of ten line-of-battle ships, and fifty sail, there would only be four line-of-battle ships, and twenty-five sail of our ships altogether in the Mediterranean. That, he apprehended, would be deemed a pretty considerable reduction. He trusted, too, that the French government, attending only to the true interests of the people, would, like us, see that every expenditure on war like preparations which were not necessary to the protection of a country was only, as it were, so much dead loss. The reductions this year upon the naval, military, and ordnance estimates were not less than 832,000l.; the number of men reduced in the navy would be 4,000; but the House would be aware of the necessity of keeping a strong force in China, where its presence might be still necessary. He must observe that any increase of late years had been in conformity with the wishes of the House, and it was at no period consistent with sound policy or real economy to reduce the military, and still less the naval force of the empire, below a certain standard. Not long since, there were threatening appearances, both in the United States and in Europe, which induced Parliament to think that the estimates ought not to be reduced. In the army, the reduction would, he believed, be not less than 5,700 men, but he did not recollect whether that was the precise number. At all events, the estimate was considerably below that of last year. The House might depend upon it that finance committees were not proper judges of the general necessities of a state. Those must be left to the executive government, although he admitted that finance committees might be able to give a sound opinion as to particular diminutions of expense upon isolated points. What ought to be the amount of force for the protection of the interests of the country, must, after all, remain a question for the decision of the executive Government. The Members of the Cabinet must know far better than any finance committee the state of our relations with foreign countries, justifying an increase or a diminution of our establishments. The reduction in the ordnance department, was, he believed, 257,000l.; and in the whole, as he had stated, the saving this year would be 832,000l. The hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had admitted that the demand in the shape of estimates was less this year than last, and in the natural candour of his mind, he would be compelled to give Ministers credit for a considerable saving of the public money. The hon. Member had unquestionably given a very fabulous and imaginary account of the preparation of estimates. The hon Member had asserted that they were not prepared at the Treasury, but by the different departments. Now, if the case were so, great credit was surely due to the departments for having reduced the estimates by the amount of 832,000l. in their own expenditure. The tendency of departments was naturally the other way, and unless some control was exercised over that natural tendency, they found great difficulty usually in making material reductions. But the fact was, these estimates were subjected to great control. The departments had first made them out; then the Treasury, knowing what was the state of the revenue, subjected them to a severe scrutiny. He believed that that course had been pursued in former years by former Treasuries, and he could assert distinctly that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had devoted the greatest attention to the consideration of the estimates. He deeply lamented the state of the revenue; he lamented its inadequacy, and must bear his testimony to the desire of every Member of the Government to reduce the estimates to the lowest possible amount. It was necessary to look at the state of the force in various parts of the world, and not to run any unjustifiable risk by unduly lessening our naval and military force. He thought that matters of detail on these subjects could be better discussed when the estimates were regularly before the House, and every information would then be willingly afforded.

Order of the day read. Question put, that the Speaker do leave the Chair.