HC Deb 14 August 1843 vol 71 cc640-

"Victoria, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith. To all to whom these presents shall come, greeting: Whereas a large sum of money was, in or about the year 1822, raised by voluntary subscriptions for the relief of the suffering poor in Ireland, and the management and distribution thereof was vested in a committee in the City of London, who appropriated the sum of 45,000l., part thereof, for the purpose of making small loans at interest to the industrious poor, and such committee has ever since continued, and now continues, to carry on the same charity, under the name or style of "The Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Institution:" and whereas the said sum of 45,000l. hath, since the year 1822, by good management and divers other means been increased, and now amounts to the sum of 60,000l.; and whereas great benefit bath been found to arise from the operations of the said charitable association, and it bath been represented, to us by George William Frederick Villiers Earl of Clarendon, John Cator, esq., John Abel Smith, esq., M. P., William Bell, esq., Martin Tucker Smith, esq., Henry Blanshard, esq., Edwin Gower, esq., George Robert Smith, esq., Sir John Lubbock, Bart, Samuel Tomkins, esq., the hon. John Thomas Leslie Melville, William Browne, esq., and Henry Kingscote, esq., the present managers of the said fund, that such benefit might for the future be much increased, and the purposes for which the fund was instituted be more effectually carried on, with the sanction of our royal letters patent, and the said George William Frederick Villiers Earl of Clarendon, John Cator, esq., John Abel Smith, esq., M. P., William Bell, Martin Tucker Smith, Henry Blanshard, Edwin Gower, and George Robert Smith, esqs., Sir John Lubbock, Bart., Samuel Tomkins, esq., the hon. John Thomas Leslie Melville, William Browne, and Henry Kings-cote, esqs., humbly besought us, hat we would graciously be pleased to grant to them our royal charter of incorporation. Now know ye, that we, being desirous of encouraging so laudable an institution, have given, granted and ordained, and do by these presents for ourselves our heirs and successors, give, grant and ordain, that the said George William Frederick Villiers Earl of Clarendon, John Cater, John Abel Smith, William Bell, Martin Tucker Smith, Henry Blanshard, Edwin Gower, George Robert Smith, Sir John Lubbock, Samuel Tomkins, John Thomas Leslie Melville, William Browne, and henry Kingscote, together with such other persons as have become, or shall at any time become, or be appointed governors under or by virtue of the provisions for that purpose hereinafter contained, shall be one body politic and corporate in deed and name, by the name of "The Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Institution," and by that name shall and may sue and be sued, implead and be impleaded in all courts, whether of law or equity, and shall have perpetual succession, and a common seal, with full power to alter, vary, break, or renew the same at their discretion. And we do declare, that the said corporation shall be established for the purpose of lending advancing and providing by way of loan, to and for persons of the industrious classes in the provinces of Munster and Connaught, in Ireland, small sums of money, implements of labour, seed and other raw materials to be used and employed in husbandry, or any trade, manufacture, fishery, or other business, and for receiving back payment for the same by instalments, or otherwise, with interest, re-investing the capital of the said society, and the interest thereof, for the like purposes, after defraying the necessary charges of management; and that all and every, the capital, stock, funds, monies, and effects, now belonging to the said charitable association and held or possessed by the members thereof, or any of them, or by any other person or persons for or on behalf of the said association, or for the purpose thereof, together with all such monies, stocks, funds, and securities, as shall at any time be given, bequeathed or contributed to the said corporation, shall be and constitute the capital of the said corporation, to be employed by them for the purposes aforesaid. And for the better governing the affairs of the said corporation, we will and direct, that there shall be thirteen governors of the said corporation, exclusive of the ex-officio governors thereof, as hereinafter mentioned, and that the said George William Frederick Villiers Earl of Clarendon, John Cator, John Abel Smith, William Bell, Martin Tucker Smith, Henry Blanshard, Edwin Gower, George Robert Smith, Sir John Lubbock, Samuel Tomkins, John Thomas Leslie Melville, William Browne and Henry Kingscote, shall be the first governors of the said corporation, and shall be and continue in office until such time as they shall die, resign or be displaced in manner hereinafter mentioned. And we ordain that when and so often as any one or more of the said governors shall depart this life, or resign his office, or be displaced there from in manner hereinafter mentioned, then and in every such case, it shall be lawful to and for the remaining governors for the time being, at a special meeting to be held for that purpose in manner hereinafter mentioned, to appoint one or more person or persons (as the case may be) to fill up the vacancy or vacancies so to be occasioned as aforesaid. And we will and ordain, that our Lord High Treasurer, or the Lords Commissioners for the time being of our Treasury, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade for the time being, and our chief Secretary for Ireland for the time being, shall be ex-officio governors of the said corporation, and shall during the time they shall respectively hold their said respective offices have all the like powers and privileges as any other governor of the said corporation. And for the better conduct of the affairs of the said corporation, we will and direct, that the governors of the said corporation shall meet together at some place in the City of London or City of Westminster in the month of May in each year, and at such other times as they shall from time to time appoint in that behalf; and that it shall be lawful for the governors present at any such meeting to adjourn, and so from time to time, and the meeting so to be held in the month of May, shall be called the annual general court of the said corporation, and every other such meeting shall be called a general court of the governors of the said corporation, provided that no business shall be transacted at any such court, unless three governors at the least, shall be present thereat; and it shall be lawful to and for the said governors to commit the management of any part of the business of the said corporation to any committee or committees, and for that purpose to delegate any of the powers of the said governors to such committee or committees, who shall meet at such times and places as shall be appointed by the court of governors in that behalf, and in default of such appointment at such times and places as shall be determined on by the members of such committees. And further, we ordain, that seven days notice shall be given of the time and place appointed for each court of governors of the said corporation by advertisement in the London Gazette, or by letter addressed to each governor according to his registered address in the books of the corporation; and that it shall be competent for any governor of the said corporation at any time by such notice as aforesaid, to summon a special general court of the governors of the said corporation. And we will and ordain, that the governors of the said corporation, in general court assembled, shall have power and authority to elect and appoint new governors, to supply all vacancies arising in the number of governors, and to make bye-laws, rules, orders, and regulations for the government of the said corporation, and for conducting the affairs and business concerning the same, and to appoint a treasurer, secretary, clerk, and such agents and other officers, clerks, and servants, as shall in their judgment be necessary, for the conduct of the affairs of the said corporation, and him and them to remove and displace and to allow him or them such salaries, commissions or other emoluments, as to the said governors shall seem meet; and also to make orders for the appropriating, lending out, and calling in of the funds of the said corporation, and to purchase or hire houses or offices for the carrying on the business of the said corporation; and it shall be lawful to and for a general court of the said corporation, specially summoned for the purpose by notice stating the object of such court, to remove and displace any governor who by sickness or infirmity shall have become incapable to attend to the affairs of the said corporation, or who shall not for two consecutive years have attended any court or committee of governors, or who shall have so conducted himself, as, in the judgment of the said court to discredit his office, provided that no governor shall be removed except at a court at which five governors at the least shall be present, and all elections of new governors of the said corporation shall take place at the annual general court to be holden in the month of May in each year; provided always that in no case shall the corporate seal of the said association be affixed to any instrument whatsoever except by an order of a general court of governors, and in the presence of at least three of them who shall attest such sealing by their signature, and that the same was done by order of the court of governors. And we further direct, that it shall be lawful for the said governors to lend or advance out of the funds of the said corporation for forwarding the purposes aforesaid, any sum or sums of money to any agent or agents of the said corporation, or to any institution, society or committee of persons now instituted or associated, or hereafter to be instituted or associated together in the aforesaid provinces of Munster and Connaught in Ireland, for the purpose of making charitable loans of money, implements, seed or raw materials, as aforesaid to persons residing in the said provinces, on the terms of repayment to the said corporation of the money so lent or advanced without or with such lawful interest thereupon as shall be agreed upon by the said governors, and to enter into such agreements and accept such securities for repayment of the sums so to be lent as aforesaid, as to the said governors shall seem meet and proper; provided always that none of the said governors shall derive any benefit or advantage from any transaction to be made pursuant to the provisions here in before contained, but that all interest, to be obtained for any sums of money so to be lent as aforesaid shall, after the payment of the secretary's and clerk's salaries and other incidental expenses be accumulated and added to the actual capital of 60,000l. In witness whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent.

Witness, &c.

By WRIT of PRIVY SEAL.

Now, Sir, when I couple this charter with the exemption clause in the 1st and 2nd Vic., and the bill introduced into this House in the year 1839 by Mr. John Abel Smith, and consider them all together, I must say, that whatever may have been said in Ireland respecting "Fixity of Tenure," and however much reviled those opinions may be in this country, I will yet take upon myself to say, that any speeches that may have been made in Ireland fall far short of this charter, and that Irishmen must come over to the City of London to understand how to adapt the theory and principle of "fixity of tenure," to practice. But who are these gentlemen who thus petition her Majesty?—four only out of the thirteen had anything to say to the general committee of 1822, and not one of them was in the sub-committee who as I have before stated are all dead, and I maintain that not one of these gentlemen have any legal right whatsoever over any portion of that subscription, and certainly not over the Reproductive Loan Societies, their funds having been placed in the hands of trustees in the different counties, as I have before stated. Nor can I recognise the Messrs. Smith in any other light than the bankers of the subscription of 1822; and as the bankers of that subscription, I conceive, that they ought to render an account of their trust. In addition to the draft of the charter sought for by these gentlemen, a statement of the Irish Reproductive Fund was also laid before the select committee, which I now hold in my hand. By this paper the original grants are stated to be 54,079l.:—*

Therefore this statement does not agree with that set forth in the petition, which shows the grant to have been only 45,000l. in the year 1822. The statement of 1836 shows the grants in 1824 to be 55,107l. and the statement of 1838 shows the grants in 1821 to have been 54,307l. which different amounts appear to require some further explanation, which I conclude can be given. But it will be perceived that there is not in this paper any account whatsoever of the amount which has been funded in the 3½ per cent., nor even anything to show the existence of any such money. There is also in this paper an observation stating that no accounts have been furnished from the county of Leitrim for the past year. This is perfectly correct and is owing to the melancholy death of the late treasurer; and some difficulty which unfortunately existed in taking out an administration to his affairs. That gentleman was most highly respected and esteemed, and had the principal management of these funds since they had been in the hands of the present trustees. Unfortunately, for the last few years his health prevented his devoting so much attention to them as formerly, or as he would have wished; and I regret to say, that when I was called upon last Christmas by my fellow trustees to examine into the state of the accounts of the different funds connected with our trust, I must add with much sorrow that I found a great deal that could not be approved of. The result has been, that after a full investigation, the trustees felt it to be their duty in some instances to recall the loans which had been advanced to some societies. Two societies had ceased to issue loans for some months, the money in their hands was called in, and some had declined to keep the loan received from the trustees any longer, preferring to issue debentures at 6 per cent. for money lent by their neighbours, for the purpose of rendering the society useful as a savings bank as well as a loan fund. Minutes have been regularly kept of all these proceedings, and nothing has been done without the approbation and direction of the trustees. The money, repaid with interest, has been invested in 3½ per cent. stock, until it can again be put into circulation, this was the * See Table, following page. more necessary, as the repayments extended over a space of some months, and in sums of various amount, as they could be collected; and, I must here add, that nothing could have been more honourable than the manner in which those sums were paid back to the trustees, although the gentlemen in whose charge they were, have been in some instances personally losers to a great amount. I regret to say, that at the last Spring Assizes, two clerks of different loan societies were in gaol on charges of a very serious character. The Government refused to prosecute them, and the loan societies thought that they had suffered sufficiently by them already, without being put to any more expence about them. The clerk of a third loan fund ought also to have been prosecuted; but, the benevolent gentleman, who had lost to a considerable amount by his misconduct, preferred suffering the inconvenience to punishing his clerk. I believe, that all these gentlemen entered into these loan societies from most benevolent and excellent feelings, not being aware of the very great trouble that so vast an undertaking would entail upon them. That from various reasons they have at one time or other been compelled to leave them to the superintendance of a clerk, who, as it has been seen, has not been at all times very well chosen, and the result has been very disadvantageous to the system, which has fallen very much in public estimation, and has indeed been productive of very evil results. But, however injurious

Statement of the Irish Reproductive Loan Fund.
COUNTIES. original Grants. March 1843. —
1822. profit. Aggregate fund Lent.
Clare 5,697 195 5,892 5,681
Cork 8,028 1,837 9,865 8,875
Galway 7,260 1,514 8,774 8,459
Kerry 5,777 1,334 7,111 4,454
Leitrim 1,200 436 1,636 1,550 Made up from last Statement, no accounts having been furnished this year.
Limerick 6,370 923 7,293 7,112
Mayo 9,377 1,721 11,098 10,900
Roscommon 4,000 3,088 7,088 6,404
Sligo 3,870 1,104 4,974 4,590
Tipperary 2,500 531 3,031 2,705
54,079 12,683 66,762 60,730 Made up to 17th March 1843.
W. H. HYETT, Secretary.

these funds may have been to the morals of the people, the reproductive fund has not suffered, but on the contrary has increased. I am happy, however, to be able to say, that there are some loan funds in the county which are working pretty well, they all report to, and are inspected by the Central Board, with one exception, whether in connection with the Reproductive Fund or otherwise. And I can further state for the trustees, with whom I am connected, that we desire no exemption clause, we are anxious for the inspection, and assistance of the Central Board, and we court examination into our accounts, if a blot can be discovered we shall be glad to rectify it, and all we desire is, that the funds that have been entrusted to our charge may continue to be turned to the advantage of the poor to whom they belong, and for whose benefit we are bound to preserve them. I therefore hope, that her Majesty will not grant any charter of incorporation to her petitioners, who I maintain are self-elected, and have no right whatsoever, over the money which has been placed in the hands, and under the care of trustees in the several counties to which it was sent by the relief committee of 1822. Many of the noblemen and gentlemen who formed the general relief committee of 1822 are yet alive, and their opinions ought to be consulted, why have they not been so? is it that they are persons unworthy of being considered? I will read to the House a few of the names of that committee:—His Grace the Duke of Devonshire; the most noble the Marquess of Lansdowne; the most noble the Marquess of Downshire; the right hon. Colonel Richard Fitzgibbon, M.P.; the right hon. Charles Grant, M.P.; the right hon. Henry Goulburn, M.P.; Major-general Sir Charles Doyle, K.C.B.; Alexander Josias Dupre, esq., M.P.; Dominick Brown, esq., M.P.; James Brown, esq., M.P.; Peter Brown, esq., M.P.; Antony R. Blake, esq.; Thomas Barnewell, esq.; James Daly, esq., M.P.; Edward Ellice, esq., M.P.; John Fitzgerald, esq.; Henry Grattan, esq.; Lucius O'Brien, esq.; James Pattison, esq.; Thomas Spring Rice, esq., M.P.; Mr Alderman Thompson, M.P. I am at a loss to understand why, with such names as these belonging to the General Relief Committee of 1822, they should be put aside for the purpose of bringing forward gentlemen unconnected with that committee, and, as far as I know, equally unconnected with Ireland; and it is remarkable, that out of the whole of these petitioners styling themselves "The Irish Reproductive Loan Fund Institution," there is not, as far as I can ascertain, one Irishman, or one that is in any way connected with Ireland. I hope, Sir, that her Majesty will not grant this charter; and if it should be her Majesty's pleasure that any corporation should receive a royal charter, for the purpose of superintending these funds, I trust that there may be found some of my countrymen sufficiently worthy to form part of that corporation; and I also hope that the House of Commons will not permit the clauses which have been introduced by the select committee, contrary to the strong remonstrance of the Central Loan Fund Board in Dublin, to stand part of this bill. I submit that if the Reproductive Loan Societies are exempted, that on the same principle, you ought to exempt the Charitable Musical Loan Society from the inspection of the Central Board; and also the Loughrea Fund, which derives its capital from the charitable bequest of a benevolent individual, who left it for the use of the poor, and to be lent to them in the way of loans, to be repaid by them with interest. But I am at a loss to discover upon what principle the Reproductive Fund can be exempted from the inspection of the Central Board, if the House adopts the principle of inspection in any case. Is it to be said that a gentleman, acting under the most benevolent feelings, and lending his own money to his own tenants, or to the poor in his neighbourhood, is to be subject to having his accounts inspected, and that another gentleman, perhaps equally benevolent, but borrowing capital from the county trustees (which capital belongs to the poor), is not to be subject to any inspection. I ask, is there any principle of justice in such a law, or who ever heard before of exempting a few private individuals, from the operations of a public act? You may think proper now to establish such a rule out of favour to a particular individual, but if you do, you ought to state fairly and honestly your reasons for giving this exemption, that you do it, not because it is just, not because it is advisable, but out of compliment to an individual. But, Sir, if this bill should pass with these clauses standing part of the bill, I think that we shall very shortly be again required to legislate on this subject. I hope that such will not be the case: I trust that her Majesty's Government will not allow these clauses to stand part of this bill; but if they do, I shall then feel it to be my duty to move, by way of an amendment to the third reading of this bill, that it be postponed for six months.

Sir R. Ferguson

hoped the noble Lord would withdraw his opposition at present, and allow the bill to go into committee, where he would have an opportunity of resisting the obnoxious provisions.

House in committee.

On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, several clauses were passed the House resumed, the committee to sit again.