HC Deb 25 April 1843 vol 68 cc891-7
Mr. Ewart

begged to repeat the questions, which he had put to the right hon. Baronet previous to the Easter recess, relative to the commercial treaties with Brazil and Portugal; and, also, as to the return of Mr. Ellis from Brazil.

Sir Robert Peel

replied, as to the question put by the hon. Gentleman, as to whether Mr. Ellis was on his way to this country, he must say, as to that particular question, that he had not heard that Mr. Ellis had taken his departure from Rio de Janeiro. He would take that opportunity of answering the questions which had been also put by the hon. Gentleman and that were in substance the same with those put by the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) on the preceding evening, as to the present state of the commercial negotiations with Portugal and Brazil. To these questions he now meant to give such information as was consistent with his public duty to afford. He was sure, at the same time, that the House would not press him for any information which he might conceive would be prejudicial to the public interest. In the first instance, then, he had to answer the question as to their commercial relations with Portugal. In the course of last year—he thought on the 3rd of July, or early in July, 1842—a general treaty of commerce and navigation had been concluded between her Majesty and the Queen of Portugal. In that treaty, the usual articles relative to navigation and commerce were included; but amongst them there was one—the seventh—by which it was provided that the Governments of the two countries should proceed to the consideration of their respective tariffs, with a view to make such reductions in the amount of the duties levied as might be deemed consistent with the commercial interests of both countries. In consequence, then, of that article—the seventh article—her Majesty's Government made proposals to the government of Portugal—namely, that there should be a reciprocal reduction of the duties on such articles of Commerce as were the produce or manufacture of each country. The articles chiefly that they took from Portugal, and on which this Government had propositions to submit for the adoption of Portugal—he spoke now generally of the articles they took from Portugal — were fruit, wine, and brandy. However, neither the quantity nor the quality of the Portuguese brandies made it an important article for consideration. Then, as to the fruits—there were certain descriptions of their fruits that came into general consumption, and a reduction of the duties on these would be of considerable advantage; but then the principle article on which a reduction had to be proposed by them, and which they hoped would have been acceptable, was a reduction in the duties on wine. He was sure the House would not ask him to enter into the minute details of the propositions that were made; but this he would say, that they were prepared to incur a loss to the revenue by the reductions that were proposed on the article of wine. All the articles to be received from Portugal, except a certain description of fruit, or at least, the principal one, wine, were articles of luxury, and, especially the latter, consumed by the upper classes. There were other articles, with respect to which the duties were very trifling; but the chief reduction was that on wine—nine-tenths, probably, in the event of their being able to accept the terms offered on the other side. They were willing to incur the loss of revenue, if they were met by a return on the part of Portugal; if they gained a reduction in the duties on the manufactures of this country, such as they thought they were entitled to. If he were asked to speak generally, he would say, that the amount of reductions which they proposed to Portugal, on wine, brandy, and fruit, wag about 20 per cent., and that upon our cottons, hardware, linen, and glass, the duty should be 20 per cent. ad valorem. That was not to be applied indiscriminately to every article, but it was to be the general average on such articles as hardware and linen. It was to be about 20 per cent. on our woollens, cottons, linens, and he thought, hardware. With respect to other articles, such as porcelain, it was different; and then, as to fish, it was an exception. That was to be reduced one-half. There were other articles on which the duty was to be 25 per cent. ad valorem, and others, un-enumerated articles, about 30 per cent. They had made various modifications in their proposals; but the negotiations were so long protracted that it was at last stated to the Portuguese government they could wait no longer. They told the Portuguese government that it was a great object to the manufacturers of this country that a final answer should be communicated to this country, and that this Government could not consent to any further protraction of the negotiations. In November lost it was stated that the Government was not prepared to make any farther concessions. The last accounts which had appeared in Portugal as to these negotiations, end which had been stated hire, were to the effect that the proposals of England were not accepted, and that the negotiation was totally broken off. Now, speaking on this point, he must say, that it would have been a more correct translation of the original statements in Portuguese to have stated that they were "interrupted," instead of being "broken off." That, then, was the state of their negotiations with Portugal — their proposals were not acceded to. Then, with respect to Brazil, the state of the negotiation was this. At the close of last year, it was thought by them to be of importance to send to Brazil a gentleman who wee in possession of the opinions and who had the confidence of her Majesty's Government, fee the purpose of making certain proposals to the Brazilian government on the subject of a commercial treaty with that country. At that time they had every reason to believe that the Brazilian government would persist in maintaining its con- struction of the existing treaty. According to the construction here of the existing commercial treaty, that treaty was not to expire until November 1844. The construction which the Brazilian government placed on the treaty was, that it expired in November 1842. Of course a political question of great importance arose—there was a disputed treaty, and it was very important that an attempt should be made to have an amicable settlement of two such different constructions of the same treaty by the two governments. One point, then, which was entrusted to Mr. Ellis, was, that he should attempt to induce the government of Brazil to accept that construction of the treaty which the late and the present Government had put upon it —namely, that the treaty, clearly by the terms and the spirit of it, did not expire until the month of November 1844. That was one point which Mr. Ellis had to settle with the Brazilian government. But before Mr. Ellis had arrived at Rio Janeiro it was signified to the representative of her Majesty at that court, that the Brazilian government coincided with this construction of the treaty; and, consequently, that the existing treaty would endure until the month of November 1844. That, then, was to be the earliest period of its termination. They had then provided Mr. Ellis with instructions, that in case the Brazilian Government should be disposed to acquiesce in ft, they would be willing to forego the special advantages which that treaty gave them, provided they could come to a permanent understanding in relation to, and with respect to a commercial treaty. Shortly after the arrival of Mr. Ellis in that country there were indications of a probable change in the then existing ministry. Mr. Ellis had, how-ever, the opportunity of communicating what were the views of his own Government to the executive authorities, that were then in existence in Brazil. In the month of January, or at the close of last year, the change of government that had been anticipated took place, and there was a total change in the councils of the Emperor of Brazil. Shortly after the formation of the new Administration, Mr. Ellis proposed entering upon negotiations with respect to their commercial relations with Brazil. He proposed the appointment of a plenipotentiary for the purposes of this commercial arrangement. The Secretary of State (San Honorio) declared his readiness to discuss the subject, and to take upon himself the duties of a plenipotentiary; but he stated at once that he should feel it incumbent upon him, from a sense of duty, to insist that all articles constituting the agricultural produce of Brazil—coffee, sugar, tobacco, and rum—should be admitted into the markets of England precisely as the produce of her own colonies would be. Mr. Ellis informed him that his instructions did not permit him to negociate on such a basis. The Secretary (San Honorio) after some time, said, he had some modifications to propose, but the whole extent of his proposal amounted to this — that the difference of the duties imposed in this country on articles from Brazil should not exceed 10 per cent. on the produce of the English colonies. Mr. Ellis informed him that the terms were such that he was not authorised to submit to them, and the negotiation was at an end. According to the last information received, Mr. Ellis had not left that country. He had only now then to state, that the purport of the declaration of the Brazilian government was, that they could not permit any higher duties— no duties that should exceed 10 per cent. —upon the articles of their produce than the duties upon similar articles coming from English colonies; and Mr. Ellis submitted to them that these were terms to which this Government could not accede. That was the last account which they had received. In the communications made with the Brazilian and Portuguese Government, there was no stipulation for special advantages being conceded to this country, or that terms might be granted to England which those Governments might not be willing to concede to other countries offering them equivalent advantages. He was sure the House would not press him for more details. He trusted that he had answered the questions that had been put to him, and he now left it to the House to judge of the present state of these negotiations.

Mr. Labouchere

was aware of the inconvenience of raising discussions upon questions of this sort; but there was one point upon which he wished to ask the right hon. Baronet a question. He wished to know whether he were to understand that the Brazilian Government had absolutely refused to treat at all, with a view to a commercial treaty with this country, unless the terms it had proposed to us, as the basis of such treaty, were agreed to; or if any attempt had been made to ascertain from them whether or not they might have been induced to entertain a treaty in which a clause, commonly known as "the most friendly nation clause," were introduced, that clause, as was well known, going to the effect of declaring that the state contracted with should be subject to no higher duties than were imposed upon any third state in commercial relationship with us. He was anxious to know whether any proposition of this kind had been made to the Brazilian government, and if it was subsequent to such proposition that they had refused to treat further?

Sir R. Peel

said, that in answering the questions put to him on this subject, he laboured under some disadvantage, which might possibly cause him to do injustice to the Brazilian Government, from the fact that the last accounts which had been received by her Majesty's Government from Brazil had been made up within so short a period before the departure of the ship, that Mr. Ellis had not had time to inclose a copy of the letter which he had just received from the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and could only give a summary of its contents; and the tenor of it was that M. San Honorio had refused to entertain any commercial negotiations, except upon the basis that no articles mentioned subject to differential duties, should be subject to differential increase exceeding 10 per cent. He was not now in a position to be able to state whether or not Mr. Ellis had made a proposal to the Brazilian government of putting them upon a footing of the most friendly nations, but by the next accounts he hoped to have full particulars upon this and every other point connected with this negotiation.

In reply to a question from Lord John Russell,

Sir R. Peel

said, that he could not encourage the noble Lord to believe that any result had been attained materially different from that which he had already explained to the House. Mr. Ellis, in his despatch, mentioned something about some new proposition being in contemplation, but added that it was not his impression that any such proposition would be acceptable, and that under this feeling he was then making preparations for his departure. It was possible, however, that some new proposition might have been brought forward between the date when this letter was written and the day of Mr. Ellis's contemplated departure. He had now told the noble Lord all that he knew on this subject. When he got the letter which be had mentioned as having been referred to in Mr. Ellis's last despatch, he should be able to tell the House exactly the nature of any propositions which had been made to the Brazilian Government, and the manner in which they had been received.

Mr. Ewart

was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his very clear statements; but he did not exactly understand, from what the right hon. Gentleman said, what was the amount of reduction which this Government had proposed to make in the duties on Portuguese wines.

Sir R. Peel

said, that he could not say exactly what was the amount of reduction proposed in these duties; but he could assure the House that they were so liberal that they would have occasioned a very considerable reduction in our revenue, and it was thought necessary to stipulate for very reduced duties upon British manufactures imported into Portugal.