§ On the question that 61,093l. be granted to defray the charge of the colony of New Zealand,
§ Mr. W. Williamssaid, that really this was a most extraordinary item. Why, there were not, he was told, 14,000 people in the colony. Never were officers so highly paid; their scale of remuneration was far above that of corporate officers at home. The chief-justice had 1,000l. a-year. Why, they would get any briefless barrister to take the place for half the money. He thought the Government ought to lay before the House the details of the estimate.
Lord StanleyIf the hon. Member had taken the trouble to refer to the bottom of the page, he would have found the explanation which he has asked of the Government. The explanation of the estimate had been before the House since the 23rd of March.
Mr. Chapmanthought, that the colony of New Zealand was in a flourishing state, and deserved every encouragement from the Government. The public money could not be better laid out than in extending the interest of that colony.
§ Mr. B. Woodhoped that the noble Lord would postpone this vote until hon. Members had time to read the document to which reference had been made.
Lord J. Russellthought, the objections to the vote were not well founded. 879 He could not see what other course the Government could have adopted than to ask for the vote. The hon. Member said, that he had not had time to read the paper. That was no valid reason for either postponing or objecting to the vote. It was his intention to support the vote. He quite concurred in what had fallen from the hon. Member on the other side of the House, with relation to the flourishing state of the colony of New Zealand. In 1748, the same sum was asked for the colony of Halifax. If the objections which were then urged to that vote—and they were of a similar character to those now urged by the hon. Member for Coventry—had been attended to, this country would have lost one of the most valuable of its possessions. He expected to derive from the colony of New Zealand advantages similar to those which had resulted from the establishment of Halifax.
§ Mr. B. Woodsaid, that he had not had time to peruse the papers which referred to the vote under the consideration of the House. He had been out of town, and had not seen the document. This was no common vote; it required looking into. He did not think that such a vote should be pressed until proper explanation was given by the noble Lord.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ 18,667l. was proposed for the salaries of the governors, lieutenant-governors, and others, in the West India colonies.
§ Sir C. Napierthought, that this vote required some explanation. He saw that there were two lieutenant-governors of Dominica — one receiving a salary of 1,300l. per annum, and the other lieutenant-governor was paid 366l. a-year. The salary for the lieutenant-governor of Grenada was charged twice. In one part of the estimate the sum stated was 1,300l., and in another part the salary of the lieutenant-governor was said to be 273l.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that a new arrangement had been entered into with reference to the payment of the lieutenant-governors of these colonies. Certain lieutenant-governors had been appointed, who would have prescribed duties to perform. The office would be no longer a sinecure. The double payment of salaries was more apparent than real. The offices of lieutenant-governor of Grenada and Dominica, to which the hon. and gallant Member had particularly referred, who were in the receipt of small salaries, 880 were to be abolished when vacancies occurred.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ 18,895l. was proposed for the expenditure of the Indian department in Canada.
§ Mr. Williamsobjected to this vote. He said, that many of these Indians were far better off than many of the inhabitants of this country, and of Ireland particularly. He saw, that a sum exceeding 14,000l. was for presents to the Indians. The government of the United States looked upon this matter with feelings of great jealousy. They (the Americans) considered, that this was paid as a bribe to the Indians, in order to induce them to be in readiness, in the event of a war, to assist this country. He objected to any portion of this sum being paid to Indians inhabiting the United States of America.
Lord Stanleyagreed with the hon. Member, that this sum ought to be limited to those Indians residing within our own territory. Two or three years ago an arrangement was made with the tribes; an offer was made to the Indians to the effect that those who preferred remaining within the territory of the United States, should not receive any portion of these presents. It was to be confined to those who resided within the British possessions.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the question that 104,770l. be granted for the expenses of the consular establishments abroad.
§ Mr. Williamswished to know what advantages were derived from our having a consular establishment at Paris? He saw that they had a Gonsul-general at Constantinople, receiving a salary of 1,600l., and a vice-consul at the same place with a salary of 400l. per annum. There was also a consul stationed at the Dardanelles, in the receipt of a salary of 300l. a-year. He could not see the use of a consul at the latter place, for there was no shipping, no town, no trade, no commerce; there was, in fact, nothing.
§ Sir G. Clerksaid, that the hon. Member appeared to confound the duties of the ambassador with those of the consul, when, in fact, the functions of the two offices were quite distinct in their character.
§ Dr. Bowringsaid he thought it would be desirable that the House should be furnished with more accurate information on the subject of the consular establishments, and of the duties which that class 881 of public officers were called upon to discharge. In the return laid before the House, their duties were by no means distinctly or satisfactorily laid down. In France, consular appointments led to high diplomatic offices; but the contrary was the practice in this country. On this subject he wished to put a question to the Government. Was it intended to make any arrangements for giving to persons intended for consular offices any special education? Those who had much intercourse with British consuls must know that they frequently betrayed an extraordinary inaptitude for the discharge of their functions. In some instances they were known to have attempted the exercise of despotic power; and one gentleman, Mr. Barker, one of our consuls in the Levant, was obliged to continue in exile in consequence of really not understanding his exact position. British subjects in the Levant were not under the protection of Turkish laws, and differences amongst themselves could only be settled by their own consul. He stood towards them, therefore, in the relation of a magistrate, and he possessed no code of laws for his guidance.
Lord Stanleyagreed with the hon. Member who spoke last, that the subject was one of great public importance, and he could inform the House that it had for some time been under the consideration of her Majesty's Government. It was important to define the law under which consuls were to act, but it was at the same time a matter of considerable difficulty. A bill was prepared on the subject, but he could not undertake to say that it would be introduced during the present Session.
Lord Ingestrieobserved, that vessels found great difficulty in getting in and out of the Dardanelles: it was, therefore, necessary that there should be consuls to regulate their entrances and exits.
§ Mr. W. Williamsthought that the present Government ought not to endeavour to justify any proceedings of theirs respecting the appointment of consuls by saying that they followed the example of their predecessors in office.
§ Dr. Bowringurged the necessity which existed in all parts of the world that the consuls who represented Great Britain should speak the language of the country. A Queen's messenger underwent an examination as to languages before he was 882 intrusted with despatches. It was well known that no attention whatever was paid to the qualification of consuls. The establishment was a mere refugium pecca-torum.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to remind the hon. Member that the First Lord of the Treasury bad on a former occasion assured the House that consular offices would not be made use of as a matter of patronage—that they would not deserve to be called a refugium peccatorum—and that in future none but well qualified persons would be appointed. He agreed with the hon. Member that a knowledge of languages was a great advantage; cœteris paribus, the good linguist ought to be preferred; but it was not always practicable to find here persons qualified to examine a newly-appointed consul. There was a British consul at the Sandwich Islands; who could examine him?
§ Dr. Bowringwished to know what had been done with respect to consular appointments in China?
Lord Stanleyreplied, that no appointment had been made except that of Sir H. Pottinger, and that only for the purpose of giving him legal authority to act. None others had been made, and probably none would be made for some time.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the question that 4,840l. be granted for the usual allowance to Protestant Dissenting ministers, poor French Protestant refugees, &c,
§ Mr. Ewartsaid in that grant he found a sum named to be given to the corporation of Berwick for the repair of their bridge; another sum for the support of a school in the Isle of Man. Now, why should such grants come under the head of a grant for Protestant Dissenting ministers? What connexion there was between a bridge and a minister he was at a loss to know.
§ Sir G. Clerksaid, he had devoted as much time as he could spare towards simplifying these estimates; they had been very complicated, and, although he had made some improvements, he had not carried them so far as he hoped to do another year.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the question that the sum of 50,000l.be granted towards defraying the expenses of the steam communication to India by means of the Red Sea,
§ Dr. Bowringwished to know whether 883 any steps had been taken to increase our means of communication with our vast possessions in the East? France had no less than three arrivals and departures every month; Austria had two; while England, with her immense commerce and her 150,000,000 of subjects in that country, had only one arrival per month. He would also wish to know whether the intention of communicating with India by means of the Euphrates had been given up? He thought it impracticable.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the establishment of a fortnightly communication would double the expense of the steam navigation necessary, in this heavy branch of expenditure; which was borne, as it was, in conjunction with the Indian Government. The present communication was extremely regular; and without saying that the time might not arrive when it would be well to have a more frequent transit of intelligence, at present he feared that it would be hardly practicable.
§ Dr. Bowringdeclared that he could not avoid reiterating his earnest wish that the Government would accede to a more frequent communication with their vast eastern empire. When he reflected on the magnitude of the interests involved, and the momentous importance, both in public and private relations, of rapid transmission of intelligence; when he remembered how much of national advantage would be secured, and how much of individual anxiety would be allayed by shortening the interval delaying the reception of news from India, he did feel inexpressibly the extreme weight of the question, and he considered it one well worthy of the serious attention of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. Immense would be the benefit to civilization and to science from the measure he was advocating, and incalculable the augmentation of public and private convenience arising from thus extending the facilities of intercourse.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, he did not at all dispute the force of the general principle advocated by the hon. Member. At the same time he begged to observe, that it was far better to increase the communication with Alexandria than with the East Indies; that though Austria and France had more frequent communication with the Levant they had not so with India; and that the expence provided for in this 884 estimate, was only a portion of what even the existing system cost, the residue being borne by the East India Company. My principle object in rising (continued the right hon. Baronet), is to bear this public testimony to the liberal and enlightened conduct of the Pacha of Egypt, with respect to the transmission of the Indian letters during the late operations on the coast of Syria. Whatever causes of complaint the Pacha might have had against this country—and I do not enter into the question whether the complaint were well founded or not—it is impossible, but that the proceedings of England must have appeared to him unjust, and excited his dissatisfaction; and it was a great proof of a generous and enlightened mind, that these proceedings never induced him to throw the slightest difficulty in the way of the communications with India. Other countries may boast of more enlightenment than the Pacha of Egypt, but I much doubt if, under similar circumstances, any other power would exhibit so great a degree of liberality. I believe that the Pacha's conduct was dictated by wisdom, and a genuine appreciation of his own true interest; but it is not every country that, on such occasions, takes the sound and enlightened view of its own interest which, in the case of the Pacha of Egypt, seems to me worthy of this public acknowledgement in the British House of Commons.
§ Sir C. Napiersaid, he certainly concurred in the feeling expressed by the right hon. Baronet. At the time when the British forces were intercepting the Pacha's correspondence, he was generously admitting the uninterrupted transmission of ours. Conduct like this was worthy of civilized states, and showed that the Pacha's policy was not that of a barbarian, at least.
§ Mr. Ewartdirected attention to the propriety of providing for better communication with such places as Trebizond, and with the ports on the Black Sea, where British commerce might ere long penetrate.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the question that 4,411l. be granted for the School of Design,
§ Mr. Ewartexpressed his gratification at the report which had been laid before the House on this subject, whence it appeared that provincial schools of art had been established in and at Manches- 885 tar, Birmingham, Sheffield, &c, and (he Has surprised to find) also at a non-manufacturing city like York. There had, moreover, been established a female school of design in Somerset-house, and an admirable elementary work had been published under Government auspices on ornamental design.
§ Sir R. Peelsaid, as to the York school, many gentlemen well qualified to judge bad expressed a strong opinion as to the advantage of such an establishment in that city, and he could by no means allow that a school of design could never be of any public advantage except in a manufacturing town; at the same time, too, the citizens of York had responded to the appeal, and had cordially availed themselves of the opportunity afforded by the Government. He therefore believed great good would result from such a seminary in an important metropolis like York.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ The House adjourned, at nine o'clock.