HC Deb 25 May 1842 vol 63 cc755-61

On the 5th schedule (ores, minerals, metals, and manufactures thereof) being proposed.

Sir C. Lemon

suggested that it should be postponed for a few days, as a deputation on the subject from the county to which he belonged was expected to arrive to-morrow,

Sir R. Peel

said, he really thought some better reason should be assigned for the postponement, as the county referred to by the hon. Baronet had had repeated opportunities of sending up deputations before. It was fairer to all interests that he should proceed as he stated in the outset— in the order of the tariff.

Sir C. Lemon

said, the tariff, as regarded minerals, had undergone material change, and the people in Cornwall had not had a fair opportunity yet of considering it in its last form. An important meeting was held in that county on Monday last, and the deputation then agreed to was now on its road to London.

Sir R. Peel

said, it would be better to proceed in the order of the tariff, for supposing that any reasons could be stated for a change in the schedule as it was now proposed, there would be an opportunity of stating them on a future day.

Mr. Gladstone

said, that the five articles of copper first mentioned in the schedule, would stand the same in all respects, except one, and that was, that the 7l. 10s.duty should not apply to any copper ore which did not contain more than forty-five parts of copper. The reason for the change was, that the duty as first proposed would be a greater burden than the metal would be able to bear.

Mr. Turner

moved, that the following words be omitted from the tariff: —

" Copper, Ore, of viz.:— £ s.
Containing not more than ten parts of copper, per ton of metal 1 10
Containing not more than 15 parts per ditto 3 0
Containing not more than 20 parts per ditto. 4 10
Containing not more than 25 parts per ditto. 6 0
Containing more than 25 parts per do. 7 10

And in place thereof, to insert— That there be a fixed duty of 7l. 10s. on every ton of metal extracted from ores to be imported from foreign countries. He felt, the greatest alarm as to the fate of the county of Cornwall, should not the Government give that consideration to this question which he thought it deserved for the interest of the country at large. The change that had taken place in the copper trade had rendered it necessary to make larger outlays of capital to meet the demands for our manufactures with respect to copper and tin produced by the mines of Cornwall, but notwithstanding those efforts there had been a great and progressive increase in the importation of foreign ore from Chili and Cuba. In 1832, the quantity imported, amounted only to 45,000 cwt., but in the year ending January, 1841, it amounted to 845,000 cwt., and for the year ending January, 1842, it had increased to 974,000 cwt. Now, the operation of that increase in the imports of foreign ore was most prejudicial to the trade in Cornwall, and the persons, not less than 40,000, who were employed in, and entirely dependent upon that trade; and if the duty now proposed by Government were adopted, it would not only be injurious to them, but to the country at large, and to the revenue. An hon. Member of that House, largely concerned in foreign mines, had told him, that before long, the foreign mines would certainly destroy our own Cornish mines. He put this matter to the right hon. Baronet as one affecting a dense population, which could not be turned over to any other employment; and in order to show how impossible it was for our Cornish copper mines, without a fair protection, to compete with the foreign mines, he would mention a fact which seemed almost incredible, that either in Cuba or Chili, ten men, in three months, had raised as much ore as 1,500 men could in Cornwall. To him it appeared that it was as unjust as it was inexpedient to do any thing calculated to discourage the working of the Cornish mines. The right hon. Baronet might expect great advantage both to the revenue, and to the interests of commerce, from the changes which he proposed; but he might, nevertheless, find that he had been reckoning too confidently on results which were beyond his control; for no man acquainted with the subject would deny the probability of there being an admixture of ores, which would defeat all his plans as to revenue. It was said, that foreign ores would not be brought into this country; but was that quite certain? Surely, the Government ought to take measures for the purpose of ascertaining whether there was any probability that foreign ores would be extensively introduced. In all legislation upon this important subject they should not lose sight of the fact, that the stoppage of the Cornish mines would be the loss of income amounting to a million derived from the earth. True, it might be, that the miners were losing greatly; but if they were compelled to lose more by the operation of the new tariff, they would be quite ruined. The hon. Member concluded by urging on the Government the justice, not of prohibitory, but of perfectly protective duties for the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of a whole county, and for the valuable interests embarked in an extensive business.

Mr. Gladstone

said, the motion was not at all calculated to carry out the objects of the hon. Gentleman, seeing that it referred only to a species of ore of which but a small quantity had as yet been introduced into the country. Even as to that ore, however, the motion was as futile as impolitic; for as this sort of ore was not worth more than 7l. 15s. per ton, and as the freight of the foreign ore would consume 5l. of that price, it was manifest that with a small allowance for the expense of carrying the ore to the coast (even presuming that it was to be procured for nothing), there would belittle field for profit, and little fear of injurious competition. But the fact was, that whereas the policy of the tariff hitherto seemed to have been to hold out a premium for the importation of refined ores, the Government deemed it a much sounder principle to facilitate rather the introduction of the rough ore, which would furnish more employment for our smelters. The hon. Gentleman had stated, that fifty mines had in a single year lost 49,000l., yet he admitted, that there was a small mining interest growing up in Wales, and another in Ireland; such was the effect of those losses upon mining enterprises. The hon. Gentleman had also said, that ten men in Chili could produce as much copper in a given time as 1,500 men here; if that were the case, it was quite vain to attempt by any amount of protection to guard against such a state of things. With regard to the mines of Cuba, the effect of the tariff would be to leave them the same inducements to carry on their trade as there were at present. Then, with regard to the consumers of copper in this country, nothing was more important than that they should not be put to too expensive a charge for it, particularly the shipping interest and the manufacturers of copper articles, like those in Birmingham and Sheffield, who had been compelled to pay 10l. per ton more than foreign consumers. That inequality it was proposed altogether to remove, and to effect that purpose, the present system of smelting copper in bond was to be done away with. In fact, that was absolutely necessary for the success of the present measure. But how was the proposed equality to be produced? The hon. Member supposed that there would be a great fall in the price of British, copper, and he spoke of a fall of 10l. per ton. But surely facts were against the hon. Member? Did he mean to say that the price had fallen considerably since the publication of the tariff? He did not speak of the local effect of the tariff in Cornwall: but as far as he could ascertain, the decrease of price in the London market had not been more than 2l. per ton. There was a great difference of opinion as to the amount of duty at which foreign copper ore should be admitted for smelting in this country. He thought that if the duty was too high, it would have the effect of driving the smelting of copper ore to other countries; it would not only drive the smelting abroad, but it would check altogether its coming into this country. The hon. Gentleman bad stated correctly, that since the publication of the tariff the price of copper had risen abroad. He anticipated much benefit from the change proposed in the tariff with reference to this article. He believed that it would have the effect of securing to this country the whole business of smelting foreign ores; and that, at the same time, a real protection would be afforded to the Cornish miners. The manufacturers, the consumers of copper, would also derive a great advantage from the alteration. On these grounds he opposed the motion of the hon. Member.

Sir C. Lemon

expressed his concurrence in the views propounded by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade with reference to the importance of smelting foreign ores in this country. He thought that we ought to make foreign nations as much as possible dependent upon this country. Whitbread, when speaking of the dependence of foreign countries upon our own, had remarked that the Americans would never shave themselves except with an English razor. He was willing to admit, that if the duty was raised too high on rich ores foreign countries would derive a great advantage from it. But that would not be the case with regard to ores of an inferior quality. He was prepared to admit that the present system was extremely vicious, and that the foreigner benefitted by it. If a large quantity of copper was introduced and a glut was occasioned, the effect would be to lower the price, and thus not only injure ourselves, but the foreigner likewise. He fully adopted the dictum of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, that it was our duty to buy cheap and sell dear. The effect of the contemplated alteration would be so to lower the price of copper abroad that it would be out of our power to sell it at a high price. He understood that the Spanish government intended to increase the duty on copper ore. He thought that we ought to anticipate that increase of duty, and to derive whatever advantage was likely to result from it.

Lord Eliot

placed confidence in her Majesty's Ministers, and was determined to support their plans as a whole. He should not be doing his duty to the country at large, although he might be supposed to be doing his duty to his constituents, if he were to support the amendment.

Mr. Labouchere

agreed so much in the views of the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, and those views had been stated with so much ability, that he should not trouble the committee more than a very few moments. There was no duty on our customs' list which produced more evil than this duty on copper. It really turned against ourselves those great national advantages which this country had in smelting and working metals. We supplied foreign countries with this manufactured article at a much cheaper cost than our own people; and he, therefore, rejoiced that her Majesty's Government had come to the conclusion that it was necessary to put this trade on a more satisfactory footing. It was, however, necessary carefully to watch these new duties, to prevent them inflicting injury on the great mining trade of Cornwall, on which so large a portion of our population depended. He should most cordially support the proposition of her Majesty's Government.

Mr. C. Buller

also said, he should heartily support the Government on the present occasion. He felt that legislation upon this subject must very deeply affect the population of Cornwall, whose subsistence depended entirely upon the productions to which this item of the tariff referred, but at the same time he felt that at the present moment the producers of every commodity in the country were called upon to make sacrifices of their own particular interests, for the promotion of free-trade, and for the sake of the general interests of the community. The responsibility of determining what proportion of the burden should be borne by each class rested with the Government, and he should be ashamed of the miners of Cornwall if he thought they could be unwilling to bear their fair share.

Mr. J. E. Vivian

trusted, that care would be taken by the Government that no injury be done to the mining interests in Cornwall by this measure.

Mr. Pendarves

considered the proposition of the Government a very hazardous experiment, for if the deep mines of Cornwall were once stopped they would never come into working again. The smelters of this country found the county of Cornwall the best market for the purchase of ores, and there was no doubt that their interests were intimately concerned in the question.

The committee divided on the question that the duty on copper ore containing not more than 10 parts of copper per ton of metal be 1l. 10s.—Ayes 158; Noes 7: —Majority 151.

List of the AYES.
A'Court, Capt. Gaskell, J. Milnes
Ackers, J. Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.
Ainsworth, P. Gordon, hon. Capt.
Aldam, W. Goulburn, rt. hn. H.
Allix, J. P. Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.
Bailey, J. Granger, T. C.
Bailey, J., jun. Greenall, P.
Balfour, J. M. Grimsditch, T.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Grogan, E.
Baskerville, T. B. M. Hamilton, W. J.
Bernard, Visct. Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.
Blackburne, J. I. Henley, J. W.
Blakemore, R. Hepburn, Sir T. B.
Botfield, B. Hervey, Lord A.
Bowes, J. Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.
Bowring, Dr. Hodgson, R.
Bramston, T. W. Hope, hon. C.
Broadley, H. Hornby, J.
Brotherton, J. Howard, hon. C. W. G.
Browne, hon. W. Howick, Visct.
Bruce, Lord E. Hume, J.
Buller, C. Hutt, W.
Byng, G. Jackson, J. D.
Cardwell, E. Jermyn, Earl
Cavendish, hn. G. H. Johnson, W. G.
Chelsea, Visct. Johnstone, Sir J.
Childers, J. W. Jones, Capt.
Christie, W. D. Knatchbull, right hon.
Clayton, R. R. Sir E.
Cobden, R. Labouchere, rt. hn. H.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Lambton, H.
Colvile, C. R. Lefroy, A.
Corry, rt. hon. H. Legh, G. C.
Courtenay, Lord Leicester, Earl of
Cripps, W. Lincoln, Earl of
Darner, hon. Col. Litton, E.
Darby. G. Loch, J.
Denison, E. B. Lockhart, W.
Dickinson, F. H. Lyall, G.
Divett, E. MacGeachy, F. A.
Douglas, Sir H. Mahon, Visct.
Douglas, Sir C E. Manners, Lord J.
Douglas, J. D. S. Marsham, Aisct.
Drax, J. S. W. E. Marsland, H.
Drummond, H. H. Martin, C. W.
Duncan, G. Master, T. W. C.
Duncombe, hon. A. Mitcalfe, H.
Duncombe, hon. O. Mitchell, T. A.
Ellis, W. Newry, Visct.
Eliot, Lord Nicholl, rt. hon. J.
Escott, B. Norreys, Sir D. J.
Estcourt, T. G. B. O'Brien, W. S.
Evans, W. Packe, C. W.
Fielden, J. Paget, Lord W.
Ferrand, W. B. Parker, J.
Filmer, Sir E. Patten, J. W.
Ffolliott, J. o Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.
Forster, M. Peel, J.
Fuller, A. E. Philips, M.
Plumptre, J. P. Somerville, Sir W. M.
Polhill, F. Stanley, Lord
Pollock, Sir F. Stanley, E.
Pringle, A. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Reade, W. M. Stanton, W. H.
Redington, T. N. Struct, E.
Rice, E. R. Sutton, hon. H. M.
Rose, rt. hn. Sir G. Tennent, J. E.
Round, J. Thompson, Mr. Ald.
Rushbrooke, Col. Tollemache, J.
Russell, J. D. W. Trench, Sir F. W.
Sanderson, R. Verner, Col.
Sandon, Visct. Villiers, hon. C.
Scholefield, J. Wawn, J. T.
Scott, R. Williams, W.
Scott, hon. F. Wood, C.
Seymour, Lord Wood, G. W.
Shaw, rt. hn. F. Wyndham, Col. C.
Shirley, E. J. Young, J.
Smith, A. TELLERS.
Somerset, Lord G. Clerk, Sir G.
Somerton, Visct. Fremantle, Sir T.
List of the NOES.
Acton, Col. Pendarves, E. W. W.
Gill, T. Vivian, J. E.
Hay, Sir A. L. TELLERS.
Lemon, Sir C. Stanley, W. O.
Morris, D. Turner, E.
Forward to