BUTTER.

HC Deb 25 May 1842 vol 63 cc740-4

The clause that the duty on Butter per cwt., on importations from foreign countries; andon importations from the colonies—

On the question, that the blank be filled up with the words twenty shillings.

Lord J. Russell

wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, why it was intended to maintain the duties on butter and cheese at such high rates. He had understood, that it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to impose a low rate of duty on those articles. He had no doubt that a considerable amount of revenue was derived from them; but as they were articles of extensive consumption, he deemed it very desirable that the principles of reform which had been applied to other articles should be extended to these.

Mr. Gladstone

said, that one reason which had led the Government to maintain these rates of duty was that a very considerable amount of revenue was derived from this source.

Labouchere

thought, that if the duty on these articles were reduced, the revenue would suffer no loss from the reduction; for if a diminution of revenue should, in the first instance, result from such a step, he had no doubt it would soon regain its present amount.

Viscount Howick

said, at the moment the Government were telling the House, that they were keeping up this duty for the sake of revenue, they were reducing the same article, the produce of the colo- nies, to one-fourth its present rate of duty. The result would be, that the consumer would not get the relief, but the revenue would be damaged by the introduction of American under the name of Canadian butter. He should move an amendment: That the duty levied upon butter from foreign countries, shall be 10s. instead of 1l. He trusted the House would adopt this. If they were to risk the revenue, by lowering the duty on colonial butter, at all events, let the consumer have the advantage.

Sir R. Peel

was surprised, that the noble Lord did not carry out his own doctrine, and propose, that the duty on colonial timber should be 10s. also, for, certainly, it was entirely in opposition to the principle which the noble Lord had placed on record, to propose a discriminating duty as between foreign and colonial butter, which was, however, the effect of the noble Lord's motion. He hoped, that the House would not assent to that motion; the greater part of the butter imported into this country was derived from Holland, and if any one continental country had a decided advantage as to the importation of butter, he doubted whether the proposal of the noble Lord would realize that benefit to the consumer here which was anticipated. This was a question involving 400,000l. or 360,000l. of duty, and the noble Lord said, that if the Government were making experiments in reducing the revenue, they (the Opposition) ought to have a hand in it. He doubted whether that was a perfectly legitimate course of proceeding; but the Government had proposed measures which would occasion as great a defalcation in the revenue as the finances would bear. The noble Lord said they were about to obtain 4,000,000l. by the Income-tax; but be-fore he made any further reduction in the revenue, he would like to see that amount realised. When they got 4,500,000l. or 5,000,000l. then let them consider further reductions, but when he brought forward the additional estimates, it would be found that he had not overrated the financial demands of the country. He was told on one side of the House, that he was dealing roughly with the manufacturers of the country, and on the other, that he was J injuring the agricultural interest; but he found, that when they came to articles, as butter, a reduction of the duty was sure to be proposed on the opposite side of the House; and he begged his agricultural Friends to compare the practical course adopted on the opposite side of the House with the soothing expressions which were sometimes used towards them. All those soothing expressions, he hoped, would be weighed in the proper balance, and that hon. Members would set against them, the present proposal of the noble Lord.

Mr. T. Duncombe

said, the right hen. Baronet need not be under the slightest apprehension of his Friends not supporting this duty. The fact was, after the reduction on horned cattle, it was given them as a sort of sop and set-off. But it was clear, that the amendment must produce a reduction to the consumer; that was the common-sense point. He believed it was an ascertained fact that three-fourths of the butter and cheese imported, was consumed in the metropolis. The public looked to a reduction in the price of living, and they looked to these two important articles, cheese, and butter, and found no reduction.

Mr. O. Gore

should be sorry to see the tax on butter reduced, on behalf of the poor agricultural labourers. They lived by their labour, and the production of butter and cheese gave them employment.

Mr. C. Buller

was not inclined to look on the two articles of butter and cheese, with indifference, because they were the necessaries of life for the people next to bread. When the hon. Member for Salop came forward, and invoked their sympathy on behalf of certain imaginary poor farmers who raised cheese, when it was a well known fact, that the great bulk of the cheese consumed was the produce of large dairy farms held by some of the richest farmers in the country, he asked their sympathy on behalf of the whole industrious population to whom cheese was, next to bread, the staff of life. If they were going to give away revenue, give it away on the necessaries of life, and not upon timber. The poor people did not eat timber as they were said to eat sawdust in some foreign countries. The right hon. Baronet was in want of revenue, and as he knew he would willingly receive all contributions, he would tell the right hon. Baronet, that he had greatly miscalculated the produce of the Income-tax; and he found also, the other day, that the right Baronet had miscalculated the rental of this country enormously. There had re cently been a return moved for by the hon. Member for Limerick which proved this. The right hon. Baronet had calculated the rental as it was in 1816, and had calculated it at nearly 10,000,000l. less than it was in the present year. [" No, no."] Yes; he had taken his pencil out, and put the larger sum at top, and the other sum below it, and had substracted the one from the other, and there was a difference of 10,000,000l. On these grounds he thought the right hon. Baronet might give up the paltry revenue he derived from cheese.

Mr. C. Colville

said, that 15,000 cwt. of American cheese had been brought in within the last four months; and that had produced the most ruinous effects upon the Derbyshire farmers. He hoped, therefore, the Government would maintain a fair protection for the agricultural interest in respect to these articles; and with regard to cheese, he should hereafter move that the duty be raised from 6s. to 10s,.

Mr. Ward

wished the hon. Member would speak intelligibly; what the hon. Member thought fair protection he thought most unfair. The system of protection had been tried by hon. Members opposite, and had only produced distress; and he wanted to know why the right hon. Baronet would not try the opposite system advocated by his Friends. He thought the noble Lord's amendment one called for by the circumstances of the case, and he should give it his most cordial support. It would confer a great benefit on the whole consuming population of the country, and would be disadvantageous only to those engaged in the dairy farms.

Dr. Bowring

said, he thought the proposed plan, with regard to foreign butter, would raise the price 2d. per lb. Butter was an article which constituted one of the greatest luxuries, or he might say, necessaries of the people. Would not the right hon. Baronet consider the interest of the poor consumers, who constituted the multitude, rather than that of the producers, who were the few? In leaving the duty upon butter and cheese as heavy; as it was before, a very unfavourable opinion of the tariff had been raised throughout the country.

Lord J. Russell

said, that the rich hon. Baronet had stated that the greater portion of the butter imported came front Holland, but from Mr. Meek's report it appeared that Kiel alone sent 2,000,0001b. to Great Britain. Having heard so often of late from the Vice-President of the Board of Trade that the population had increased greatly, and that it was most important to reduce the price of provisions, a principle in which he fully concurred, he was glad to have an opportunity of carrying it out by supporting the motion of his noble Friend.

Mr. Gladstone

said, that the proposed reduction would not materially increase the amount imported, or consequently lower the price to the consumer.

Mr. Hume

thought this one of the most impolitic taxes that could possibly be levied. If the right hon. Baronet really meant (as he said) to relieve the distresses of the people he ought to take off this tax.

The committee divided on the question that the blank be filled up with *" ten shillings":—Ayes 59; Noes 115: Majority 56.

List of the AYES
Aldam, W.	Martin, J.
Barclay, D.	Mitcalfe, H.
Barnard, E. G.	Morris, D.
Bowring, Dr.	Napier, Sir C.
Browne, hon. W.	Ogle, S. C. H.
Busfeild, W.	Ord, W.
Byng, G.	Parker, J.
Childers, J. W.	Philips, G. R.
Clive, E. B.	Philips, M.
Cobden, R.	Rice, E. R.
Cowper, hon. W, F.	Russell, Lord J.
Craig, W. G.	Seymour, Lord
Crawford, W. S.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Divett, E.	Strutt, E,
Duncan, Visct.	Thornely, T.
Ebrington, Visct.	Troubridge, Sir E. T.
Escott, B.	Tufnell, H.
Evans, W.	Turner, E.
Fielden, J.	Villiers, hon. C.
Forster, M.	Wakley, T.
Gill, T.	Ward, H. G.
Guest, Sir J.	Wawn, J. T.
Hill, Lord M.	Williams, W.
Howard, hn. C. W. G.	Wood, B.
Howick, Visct.	Wood, C.
Hume, J.	Wood, G. W.
Hutt, W.	Wrightson, W. B.
Labouchere, rt, hn. H.	Yorke, H. R.
Lemon, Sir C.	TELLERS.
Loch, J.	Buller, C.
Marsland, H.	Duncombe, T. S.

List of the NOES.
Acton, Col.	Bell, M.
Allix, J. P.	Bernard, Visct.
Astell, W.	Bramston, T. W.
Baillie, Col.	Broadley, H.
Bankes, G.	Broadwood, H.
Baring, hon. W. B.	Bruce, Lord E.

Burroughes, H. N.	Kemble, H.
Chelsea, Visct.	Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.
Chute, W. L. W.	Knight, H. G.
Clayton, R. R.	Legh, G. C.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Lincoln, Eavl of
Colvile, C. R.	Lowther, J. H.
Conolly, Col.	Lygon, hon. General
Cresswell, B.	Mackenzie, T.
Cripps, W.	M'Geachy, F. A.
Darby G.	Mahon, Visct.
Denison, E. B.	Manners, Lord J.
Dickinson, F. H.	Marsham, Visct.
Douglas, Sir H.	Martin, C. W.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Master, T. W. C.
Drummond, H. H.	Miles, W.
Duncombe, hon. A.	Morgan, O.
Egerton, W. T.	Murray, C. R. S.
Egerton, Sir P.	Nicholl, rt. hn. J.
Eliot, Lord	Norreys, Lord
Emlyn, Visct.	O'Brien, A. S.
Esmonde, Sir T.	O'Brien, W. S.
Estcourt, T. G. B.	Packe, C. W.
Farnham, E. B.	Pakington, J. S.
Ferguson, Sir R. A.	Palmer, R.
Filmer, Sir E.	Palmer, G.
Fitzroy, Capt.	Patten, J. W.
Follett, Sir W. W.	Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.
Ffolliott, J.	Plumptre, J. P.
Fuller, A. E.	Polhill, P.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Pollington, Visct.
Gladstone, rt. h. W. E.	Price, R.
Glynne, Sir S. R.	Pringle, A,
Gordon, hon. Capt.	Pusey, P.
Gore, W. O.	Reade, W. M.
Goulburn, rt. hn. H.	Repton, G. W. J.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.	Richards, R.
Greenall, P.	Rose, rt. hn. Sir G.
Grogan, E.	Round, C. G.
Hamilton, W, J.	Rushbrooke, Col.
Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.	Scott, hon. F.
Heneage, G. H. W.	Shaw, rt. hn. F.
Henley, J. W.	Somerset, Lord G.
Hepburn, Sir T. B.	Stanley, E.
Hervey, Lord A.	Sturt, H. C.
Hodgson, R.	Thompson, Mr. Aid.
Hogg, J. W.	Tollemache, J.
Houldsworth, T.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Hope, hon. C.	Wortley, hon. J. S.
Ingestre. Visct.	Wyndham, Col. C.
James, Sir W. C.	Youug, J.
Johnson, W. G.	TELLERS.
Johnstone, H.	Clerk, Sir G.
Jones, Capt.	Fremantle, Sir T.

Blank filled up with "twenty shillings" and "five shillings" on colonial butter.