§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, in presenting the army estimates to the committee, he should proceed to make a general statement of the differences which appeared in the estimates of the present year, as compared with the last; and he should not think it necessary to detain the committee any length of time, because there did not exist many material differences. The number of officers, non-commissioned officers, and rank and file which it was proposed to maintain for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland(exclusive of the troops employed in the East Indies) for the ensuing year was 95,628. The number employed in the East Indies, and paid by the East India Company, was 26,940; so that the total amount of force for the ensuing year would be 122,568 men. This number was composed of 108,086 rank and file, 5,808 officers, and 8,674 non-commissioned officers. There was, therefore, an addition to the force for this year as compared with last year of 1,447 men. This increase was accounted for in the following manner:— The Royal Canadian regiment amounted to 1,100 men, the St. Helena corps to 430, and there had also been an augmentation of the 3d West India regiment amounting to 230, making a total of 1,760 men in addition to the estimate of last year; but, after deducting about 600 men, which decrease would arise from the working of the dépôts, as explained in the second page of the votes, the real increase appeared to be about 1,100 men. The Royal Canadian regiment, formed in last autumn, consisted of eleven companies, raised by volunteers from different regiments in Canada, 156 and every man had served for fifteen years. The St. Helena corps consisted of five companies, and the men were also enlisted for local service. At the same time precautions had been taken to enlist them for general purposes, in case any necessity should arise to render the transfer of their services desirable. He was not an advocate, generally speaking, for a system by which local corps, formed of Europeans from this country, should be placed on a different footing from other corps in her Majesty's service, but in this instance there were peculiar circumstances which rendered an increase of force necessary, and made a departure from this principle justifiable; and he trusted that these two corps would realize by their services the expectations which had led to their organization. The addition to the 3rd West India regiment was made on a different principle. The 1st and 2nd regiment consisted of ten companies, and were 1,000 men strong. The 3rd only consisted of eight companies. In consequence of this difference, it was thought necessary to increase the latter force, and to make it equal to the others; and it now consisted of ten companies and was 1,000 men strong. The three regiments would equally contribute to send detachments to the western coast of Africa, and while there the companies would recruit for men. It was proposed to augment the number of the officers of each of the three corps by two supernumerary companies; for though the health of the men, when on service on the western coast of Africa, and in their own country, was not liable to be deteriorated, yet the constitution of Europeans was more readily affected. The noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonial Department, had been impressed with the humanity and policy of making such an addition as was proposed, and the commander-in-chief had acquiesced in it. The effect of the arrangement would be this: that whenever an officer had served eighteen months on the western coast of Africa, he would, before his return to the West Indies, be allowed a year's leave of absence, in England to recruit his constitution. The greater portion of these three West India regiments remaining in the West Indies would supply the garrisons as far as their numbers would allow. In Jamaica it was intended that 800 men belonging to them should be stationed, occupying the barracks in the lower parts of the island; and two battalions only of British troops would for the future remain in that island. Arrangements, which were in 157 progress while the noble Lord the late Secretary for the Colonial Department was in office, were now made, according to which a battalion of six companies would be kept at Newcastle, in the mountains overhanging Kingston. This would tend greatly to benefit the health of the troops, who would always be available to march to the scene of action, should unfortunately any necessity arise for their services in that way. In future, therefore, the black troops, who did not suffer from being stationed on the low ground, would occupy all the posts on the coasts, which were the least healthy, and the European regiments would be placed in more healthy positions. The next point to which he wished to call the attention of the committee was the memorandum inserted in the second page of the estimates. It was proposed to add to each of six dépôts of regiments, consisting at present of four companies, two companies of officers, by which the dépÔts would be increased to six companies each, and 600 men rank and file, and be of the same strength as the six service companies. The force of the army he had already stated to be 122,000 men. In 1830, when he last presented the army estimates to the House, it was much under this number. Lord Grey raised the force to the full establishment, which was again reduced in 1834 under Lord Melbourne, and in 1838 it was again raised. He mentioned these facts for the purpose of observing that there had been an augmentation of the force for the last four years, without an increase of officers. The pressure on the troops for the last four years had been such, that he thought it necessary that means should be devised for relieving them. There were fifty battalions of infantry abroad, in addition to twenty-eight in New South Wales, in India, and in China. The total number was 103, including only twenty-five at home. It was impossible that the twenty-five at home could carry on the relief of the seventy-eight abroad, forty-two of which were serving in tropical climates. When the revolution in Canada broke out, in 1837, there were only nine battalions, 4,500 men strong, in North America, and now nineteen were there, exclusive of two battalions of Guards, and the Royal Canadian regiment, 1,000 men strong. In India, New South Wales, and China, there were now twenty-eight battalions instead of twenty-five, This was an increase of fourteen battalions more than existed four years ago. Looking, therefore, to the state of reliefs, the com- 158 mittee would, doubtless, be of opinion, that it was necessary by some expedient to remedy this state of things. He, therefore, proposed to the Government that six of the dépôts should be increased to six companies of 100 men each, and that they should be sent abroad to six healthy stations; for instance—to Gibraltar, Bermuda, Halifax, or Quebec, or the Mediterranean, and that there they should take the garrison duty, the same as the service companies. A battalion of that kind, performing garrison duty, would in a short time he as efficient as any other. He therefore proposed that six of these dépôts should be converted into second battalions, and sent to foreign stations, where they might relieve regiments which had been abroad for a period exceeding ten years. The effect of this arrangement would be, that instead of there being only twenty-five battalions at home in the ensuing year, there would be thirty-one; and in case of any demand arising for the services of the six battalions at home, which were the first on the list for foreign service, they would he found in a perfect state of discipline, and ready for duty. The expense of this arrangement was estimated at 63,000l.; and in order to meet that expenditure, it was proposed that fifty other battalions not employed either in the East Indies or North America, should be reduced by six men a company. This would occasion a reduction of 3,000 men from the other battalions, and a diminution in expense of 61,000l. There would thus remain a balance of expence of 2,000l. or 3,000l. To meet, however, the expense which was generally incurred at the first working of a new system, it was proposed to take a vote of 9,000l. for the present year. The total amount of the charge for 95,628 men in the present year, for which a vote was asked, was 3,581,575l. This was an increase, as compared with the last year, of upwards of 70,000l., but was accounted for by the fact of the organisation of the Royal Canadian regiment, the St. Helena corps, the augmentation of the 3rd West-India regiment, and the augmentation of the dépôt companies. The amount required to cover the money payable for good conduct amounted to 10,067l. There were 4,648 men in the receipt of this money, and he was glad to say, that the number was progressive. In addition to these, there were 7,000 men receiving marks for good conduct, making the total number receiving additional pay or wages for good conduct, 159 12,000. The vote for libraries was 2,550l. The soldiers subscribed 1d. a month to them, and their establishment had occasioned the greatest possible good both at home and abroad. The amount of subscriptions was 500l., and fifty libraries had been established. The total amount required for the staff was 166,922l., being a decrease of 527l., on account of the deputy-adjutant and quarter-master-general in Dublin having ceased to receive certain emoluments. On the head of "Public Departments," there was an increase of 2,652l., 1,140l. being owing to length of service, and the rest to postage. The charge for the Royal Military College was 18,000l., but the whole expense of that establishment did not fall on the public, inasmuch as the relations of the students contributed to their education. 530l. were required in consequence of some damage done to the building. The vote for the Royal Asylum at Chelsea and the Hibernian School amounted to 15,606l. The number of boys at the asylum amounted to 370. In the vote for the volunteer corps there was an increase of 192l., and the increase in the whole effective service amounted to upwards of 70,000l. The next division of the estimates related to the non-effective service. The first vote was for distinguished services, and amounted to 15,280l. There was a decrease on this head of 500l. The vote for the army pay of general officers amounted to 98,000l. There was a large increase over the vote of last year under this head, of 13,000l., which was occasioned by the late brevet. 61 colonels had been promoted to major-generals. He did not know whether it was necessary for him to enter into details with respect to this matter. In 1815 the number of general officers, including colonels of regiments, amounted to 555, and their pay to 191,000l. In 1842 the number of general officers was 370, and the charge to the country 98,000l., being a decrease, as compared with 1815, of 185 general officers, and of 93,000l. a-year in expense. The vote for retired allowances was 66,000l., being a decrease on the vote of last year of 1,500l. The next vote was for half-pay and military allowances, 477,618l.; the number 4,299. Last year the sum for this purpose was 497,000l., and the number 4,500—showing a diminution this year, as compared with the last, in the number of 201; and also a decrease of 19,382l. The next vote was for foreign half-pay. The number this 160 year was 501, last year 524—being a diminution this year in the number of 23. This year the sum required was 58,433l.; last year it was 60,608l.—being a diminution this year of 2,175l. The next vote was for widows' pensions, 141,817l. Last year the sum required for this purpose was 141,372l.—being an increase this year of 445l. The next vote was for compassionate allowances. The amount required this year was 120,500l. Last year the sum required was 124,000l., being a diminution this year to the amount of 3,500l. At page 83 of the estimates would be found an item of 10,000l. which was required this year, as it had been last year, to enable the War-office to make some different arrangements with respect to the organization and payment of the out-pensioners. This arrangement was to be tried first in Scotland, and if it succeeded, then it would be carried into effect in England and Ireland. The sum of 1,259,104l. would be required for the in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham hospitals, and for the out-pensioners of Chelsea Hospital. The number was this year 74,709. Last year the sum appropriated to this purpose was 1,286,465l., and the number 76,120, showing a diminution this year, as compared with last, in the number of 1,411, and also a diminution in amount to the extent of 27,361l. The next vote was for superannuation allowances. The sum required this year was 41,455l. Last year it was 43,345l., showing a diminution this year, as compared with last, to the amount of 1,890l. The total amount for effective services required this year was, 4,887,700l. Last year it was 4,870,476l., showing an increase this year, compared with last, of 17,224l. He thought it unnecessary to enter into any further explanations. He assured the House that every regard to economy had been had in the preparation of the estimates, and he hoped the committee would agree to the votes which had been proposed. At the same time that he mentioned that the Government had paid every regard to economy, he begged to be understood as meaning a really judicious economy; for he thought, and he believed the House would think so too, that efficiency was true economy. Under these circumstances, then, he trusted that the House would agree to the vote, that a number of men not exceeding 95,628 be granted to her Majesty's service.
Viscount Horvickfelt no objection to the vote which had been proposed. On 161 the contrary, he thought the amount required was quite necessary. He should make but few observations, for he had not had an opportunity of examining the report so carefully as he should have done. There were, however, one or two points in the statement of the right hon. and gallant Member on which he would offer some remark. First, the right hon. and gallant Officer had detailed some particulars with reference to the organization of local corps. The right hon. and gallant Officer had admitted, that he entertained an objection to the organization of men for merely local service, and in this opinion he concurred. At the same time he thought with the right hon. and gallant Officer, that the case of the Canadian and St. Helena corps formed just exceptions. The arrangements which had been proposed with respect to the East-Indian regiments, had given him great pleasure. He had no doubt such an arrangement would be found to be consistent with good policy, and that it would have a tendency to arrest that frightful mortality which had so long prevailed among our East-Indian troops. The increased number of officers which the right hon. and gallant Officer proposed, would admit of a longer leave of absence being granted to the officers of regiments stationed in those parts. He begged to ask the right hon. and gallant Officer, whether any plan had been resolved on with a view to the improvement of the barracks in our other East-Indian settlements. The right hon. and gallant Officer, was fully cognizant of the subject on which he asked for information. The right hon. and gallant Officer had truly said, efficiency in military matters was true economy, and he hoped that no feelings of false economy would induce the House to perpetuate those miseries among our brave soldiers, which they had endured during the last thirty-five years from defective barracks. He would next ask a question, and would by no means affect to discuss the question, with respect to the proposition made by the right hon. and gallant Officer as to the increase of six battalions and the reduction of other branches. He wished to know whether, in consequence of these reductions, the emoluments of all the colonels were to be increased, or whether the off-reckonings were to go entirely to some half-dozen favoured colonels. He would avoid going into the question as to the policy of keeping up what was known as the dépôt system, because he thought 162 this subject could be with greater propriety dealt with by the whole House. The right hon. and gallant Officer had observed, that fifty libraries had been established, an announcement which he was most happy to hear. He believed, also, that the right hon. and gallant Officer had said, that the soldiers had generally shown a disposition to avail themselves of this scheme. There was one inconvenience which he hoped endeavours would be made to remedy, which was extremely unpopular in the army, and that was the liability of the soldiers to barrack damages. There was only one other point on which he would detain the attention of the House, and that was with reference to the new system of paying the Chelsea pensioners. Some attempt to effect an improvement he was glad to find had been thought necessary, and he agreed with the right hon. and gallant Officer that it was expedient to try the scheme first in Scotland, and if it should succeed there, then that it should be carried out in England and Ireland. He was of opinion that the vote proposed was satisfactory, and he thought the House ought not to object to it.
Lord A.Lennoxwas glad that an increase had taken place in the number of men proposed in the present estimate; and he only had to regret that the increase had not been more extensive. Whether he considered our affairs in China, the present unsettled state of France, or whether he viewed the aspect of America, he thought the country would not long enjoy the blessing of peace. He felt on this account, therefore, an objection to the lowness of the present estimate; and another reason he had for considering the estimate too low was, that he believed that the different corps would not be relieved so often as the right hon. and gallant Officer had imagined. On the subject of retiring pensions he had an observation to offer. He need not remind the House, that by the existing warrant, a man must be enlisted twenty-five years before he could receive a retiring pension of 6d. a-day. He put it, therefore, to the House and to the right hon. and gallant Officer, whether it was likely that good men would enlist, when it was necessary that they should have served for so long a period, probably exposed to the influence of unwholesome climates during much of that period, before they could receive the miserable pittance of 3s. 6d. a week. It 163 should also be recollected that these men became, from causes which operated on them in their military career, quite unable to gain their livelihood in any other way. He would, however, leave the matter in the hands of the gallant Officer, satisfied that so distinguished a Member of the same profession would do justice to the claims he had endeavoured to advocate. There was only one more question he had to ask, and that was, what was to become of the 400 sets of accoutrements which the new regulations would throw out of use. He begged, in conclusion, to suggest, whether some increase might not take place in the pay of the lance corporals and the lance serjeants. It was well known that these non-commissioned officers received no more pay than the common men, though the serjeants had to make reports, which occasioned them an outlay for different articles of stationery in order to prepare those reports. He suggested that 1d. a-day should be added to the pay of the lance corporals and 3d. a-day to the pay of the lance Serjeants. He begged to thank the House for the attention they bad given him while making these remarks.
§ Mr. Macaulayobjected to the arrangements which were proposed to be made in reference to the colonels of these six regiments, by which their present rate of emoluments would be greatly increased. After what the right hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge) and his noble Friend (Lord Howick) had said, he (Mr. Macaulay) had scarcely anything to add, except that he did not agree in his noble Friend's prognostication with respect to Canada. He did not mean to assert that he was confident of success, but that' he conceived they had a better chance under the present system than with a corps composed of men half soldiers half civilians, whom he thought must be found bad soldiers. He had another question to ask, which he thought of great importance. At the time, he (Mr. Macaulay) left the board, he was engaged in attempting to effect some change with respect to the lunatic asylum at Chatham, which he believed was in a state disgraceful to the country, and absolutely shocking to humanity. He felt assured that the right hon. Gentleman had not forgotten the subject, but it would be a great satisfaction to him to be informed so by the right hon. Gentleman. With respect to the Chelsea pensions, it appeared to him that 164 a complete re-organization was necessary, but he was quite satisfied with the observations of the right hon. Gentleman, and thought that in first trying the experiment in Scotland, he (Sir H. Hardinge) was exercising a sound discretion.
§ Sir H. Hardingeassured the right hon. Gentleman, that the subject of the Lunatic Asylum at Chatham had not escaped his observation. In consequence of having read the reports upon the subject, he requested the quarter-master-general to go down and inspect the asylum, and to take with him all the preceding reports; and he was sorry to say, that, the quarter-master-general's report entirely confirmed all preceding reports on the state of the institution. He, therefore, entirely concurred in the necessity of making, as soon as possible, an entire change in the state of those unfortunate individuals, among whom were gentlemen as well as private soldiers. With regard to other observations, he wished that, when the proposed arrangement regarding the augmentation of the dépôts was carried into effect it had been possible to make any other arrangement with respect to the emoluments of the colonels. The uniform custom, upon reducing a regiment on its return from India to England, was proportionably to diminish the emoluments of the colonels; but this being a case in which the number of men was augmented for the public convenience, the emoluments could not fairly be reduced in proportion. The arrangement had been made for the purpose of meeting the extra service now going on in the colonies, but he hoped that the number of men in the East Indies and North America might in a short time be diminished, and the service carried on as in 1825, for he maintained that the ordinary peace establishment of 1825, under the Duke of Wellington, of 103 battalions, was a sufficient force for the ordinary circumstances of the country in time of peace. He was persuaded, that by this arrangement they would be able, if necessary, to send more than six battalions in the most perfect state of discipline to any part of the globe, as often as they might be required. The noble Viscount (Viscount Howick) had hinted that his plan of dépôts would have answered all the purposes of the present plan, but he (Sir H. Hardinge) did not think it would have had the same effect, in affording relief. That plan had been fairly laid before the Government of which the noble Lord had been a Member, 165 and referred by them to the Duke of Wellington, who also differed from the noble Lord respecting it, in which opinion he believed the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), and the Commander-in-Chief concurred. The noble Lord had also adverted to what he termed the disgraceful state of the barracks in the West Indies. He would rather that expression had been made to the committee at the time the Ordnance estimates were before them; but he must remind the noble Lord, that in 1840, in consequence of the noble Lord having moved for papers on the subject, he had asked the present Lord Vivian, then Master-general of the Ordnance, whether there was any foundation for that report, and that the Master-general of the Ordnance stated in his place in that House, that the barracks were in an admirable state, and that he was ready to meet the noble Lord upon the subject whenever he thought proper. The noble Lord did not recur to the subject in 1841, when Lord Vivian was present, but he could assure the House that all he had said upon the subject was directly opposed to the description of the noble Lord. With respect to the observation of the noble Lord (Lord A. Lennox) respecting the accoutrements of the battalions, he had only to say they would be disposed of in the same manner as those of regiments returning from India.
Lord J. Russellsaid, he did not object in any way to the vote proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, and should confine his observations simply to one or two points. With respect to the greatest novelty in the estimates of this year, namely, that of having two additional battalions, the plan of Lord Vivian was communicated to the Duke of Wellington, who stated that they would lose by it the advantage of depot companies, which, by keeping a certain portion of officers and recruits to be drilled, was of greater advantage than keeping regiments abroad and sending out recruits to them. This statement being made by such eminent authority, he bowed to it, however superior, to his own mind, a different plan might be; but then the plan of the right hon. Gentleman abandoned the system of dépôt companies, and whatever advantage there might be in it, he thought it could not be denied, that with respect to this arrangement, it was entirely disregarded. He would not enter into a controversy which plan would be the best, feeling sure, that 166 on a question of this nature the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman was entitled to have great authority. He was glad to hear that there was to be only two battalions in Jamaica, and that they were to have a new barracks there, being decidedly of opinion that nothing was more advisable in every respect than that the troops should be placed in the healthiest situation possible. On the whole, he considered these estimates had been communicated to the House with all the ability and information that might have been expected from so distinguished an officer as the right hon. Gentleman.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that he understood the opinion of the Duke of Wellington and the Commander-in-Chief to be, that these dépôts could be kept up by the introduction of men at home and abroad, but that, if necessary, these troops might be further augmented so as to become second battalions.
§ Viscount Howicksaid, that the Duke of Wellington referred only to a time of war.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, they were not at all in the present estimates, but would, under the head of "Army Extraordinaries," be hereafter matter of arrangement.
§ Sir H. Hardinge:it was impossible to give any such calculation.
Mr. Williamsthought, that the unanimity prevailing between the two great parties on the subject of estimates was not by any means matter for congratulation or of credit. He was strongly persuaded that the ways and means ought to be settled prior to the proposal of the estimates. Were this plan adopted, expenses would not so often exceed the revenue. Last year the expenditure exceeded the receipts by 2,500,000l. nearly. The numbers on the home army establishment were, by some thousands, greater at the present period than they had been some years ago. Looking at the vast increase of the army, as compared with former years, he felt bound to say, that he saw nothing in the present circumstances of the country to warrant the vast increase which her Majesty's Government had proposed, and, acting under the influence of this strong conviction, he should move that the number of 95,600 men be reduced to 84,000, 167 unless he received an assurance that some portion of that force was to be employed in the Chinese war. No doubt that war was an event much to be deplored, but, being engaged in it, he thought that the more efficiently it was carried on, the sooner it would be brought to a close; if, therefore, he received the information to which he had just alluded, he should not persist in his opposition to the present vote. He thought the House had reason to complain not only of the number of men composing the army, but of the amount of the half-pay, which came to no less a sum than 2,264,000l. Now, it was rather hard, after twenty-four years of peace, that the half-pay and allowances,— namely, the whole retired list, should have cost the country such a sum as he had just mentioned. In the half-pay he thought the officers the most objectionable portion. There were 5,880 officers; if they took from that number 385 officers, who from one cause or other remained on full pay, and 504 foreign officers, it would bring the officers on full and on half-pay to pretty nearly equal numbers. The captains on half-pay were 1,187,the lieutenants on full pay were 1,868, while those on half-pay were 1,461, and it was well known, that a large portion of the captains had served but a short time. Then he could not help calling the attention of the House to the late promotions, which advanced so many to the rank of general officers without any imaginable necessity for laying upon the country such a burden—no recent occurrences appeared to render it at all necessary. There were 452 general officers on the list, which was in the proportion of four general officers to one regiment of the line, and leaving some to spare. To him it appeared that so many general officers were not necessary for the command of the army. The United States of America possessed an army of 12,500 men, but they had only three general officers, one major-general, and two brigadiers. On the pension-list there were 1,209 widows; respecting them he wished to know whether their pensions were granted them on special representations being made, or whether the widows of officers received their pensions according to the ranks of their deceased husbands; but, at all events, he thought that the number of widows' pensions could not be justified upon any principle. Those widows cost the country 371,000l., a sum 168 far exceeding what he thought the necessity of the case required. He was quite aware that this was an unpleasant topic to Gentle-men belonging to the army, of whom there were many in that House—indeed, he regretted that they were so numerous. With regard to the estimates generally he should say, that if anything like economy had been practised, a great reduction might have been effected without injury to the public service. It was quite unnecessary, for example, that so many officers should be allowed to retire on half-pay at so early an age as was the practice of the British army. The fact was, that the army had been made too desirable a profession, and if stricter economy were observed, men who now went into the army would find occupation for themselves in other pursuits. The next portion of these estimates to which he thought it necessary to direct attention was the expense of the household troops—most properly called household troops, for they were purely an appendage of royalty; but the country felt them to be a very costly appendage. The Horse Guards cost the country at the rate of 85,000l., which was 24,000l. more than any other regiments cost. Then the Foot Guards cost 39,818l. more than any equal portion of the army. On the whole, then, those household troops cost 63,918l. more than any other body of soldiers equal in number; and it was worthy of observation, that those troops never left the country to serve abroad, except in the year 1815. [An hon. Member:"They served in Spain."] That was before 1815; since 1815 they had never served abroad. This portion of the army had three colonels, at 1,800l. each, while twelve other regiments in the service had their colonels at 900l. The pay of the Horse Guards was 1s. ll½d., that of the Foot Guards was 1s. 1d. while other regiments of cavalry received only 1s. 3d., and other infantry only 1s. There was one other vote of which he wished more particularly to complain—it was a sum of 82,458l. for the yeomanry. There was now no danger of invasion, and no force could be more objectionable for quelling disturbances than were the yeomanry. In Ireland the disuse of that force had greatly tended to tranquillise the country. In conclusion, he said he should divide the House, unless he received an assurance that a considerable portion of the force was to be employed in China.
§ Sir H. Douglassaid, he was not surprised that hon. Members on the other side of the House had raised no objection to the votes proposed by his right hon. Friend, for that which he did the late Ministry ought to have done on a much larger scale. Our military force ought to have been increased when the war broke out in Canada, and it ought to have been further increased when those hostilities commenced in the East, the issue of which they had yet to learn. At the breaking out of the Canadian rebellion, two regiments were removed from the Ionian Islands, to the great inconvenience of the public service. Looking to the Chinese war, and to what had taken place in the East since its commencement, he must say, that for many years past, and most particularly from the time of the Canadian rebellion, the strength of the British army had never been equal to the work it had to perform. It had been utterly insufficient, not only for ordinary relief, but to enable officers abroad to carry on warlike operations in a proper manner; and it was now utterly insufficient to retrieve any great disaster that might happen, which God forbid ! For want of a sufficient force, the officers engaged in Affghanistan had been prevented from carrying on the war as they would have done; otherwise they would not have undertaken great operations along an immense line of country without making good that progress step by step, and establishing dépôts in every important part, for the purposes of conveying intelligence and supplies, and of making all safe and secure in case of any unforeseen disaster, so that the forces could retreat from the first post to the second, and so on as far as necessary, falling back, not upon weakness, but upon strength. He charged that insufficiency upon those whose duty it was at the time to make ample provision for every contingency, and not to have left officers exposed to defeat, and to the necessity of deviating from the first rules of the service. He therefore thanked his right hon. Friend for having increased her Majesty's forces. But that ought to have been done long ago. It was now imperatively necessary to look well to our extended empire, and to increase our forces, not by expedients, but by large and regular means. Look at India! The Queen's troops there were reckoned at twenty-two battalions, at the very moment when some 170 were called away to China, and others to Affghanistan! What were twenty-two battalions for India proper? And where were they now? Nine and a half only were in India; some were sent to Affghanistan, some to Cabul, and some to Jellalabad. He trusted, that no new disaster would befal the British troops in those parts; but, should such an event take place, not only would the physical results be most distressing, but the moral effect must be most mischievous to the honour and welfare of this country; and here again, he must cast all the responsibility of such a state of things upon those who, when it was their duty to prepare the necessary supplies, failed to do so. Returning now to that degree of comfort which ought to be provided for the British soldier, he would state, that when he arrived at the Ionian Islands, he found but one military chaplain there; and on visiting the hospitals, he heard the dying soldiers calling for spiritual aid and comfort in their last moments. He applied to the noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, who was then Secretary at War, and the noble Lord appointed another chaplain, and also three Roman Catholic chaplains, though he had recommended the noble Lord to appoint four. An alteration for the better was visible amongst the military; many of them were to be seen sitting in the guard-rooms reading, and he knew, from observation, that those who took to their books forsook baneful habits and pursuits, and became moral men, and consequently orderly and good soldiers. He wished his right hon: Friend would take another step with a view to introduce into the army those institutions which had proved so beneficial among civilians—he meant saving-banks. When he was Governor of New Brunswick, many years ago, he established saving-banks, in which the military deposited their savings, not as soldiers, but as private persons, and in a very short time, their deposits amounted to 500l., while provident habits and temperance and general good conduct prevailed more extensively amongst the men. In the course of service, however, the regiment was called elsewhere; there being no mode of remitting deposits, it was necessary to return the men their money, and the consequence was, that, though some gave their savings to superior officers, or the paymaster, to take care of for them, others 171 fell into great irregularities, spending their money foolishly, and courts-martial followed their misconduct. Thus they were thrown back in the path of good behaviour, merely through the absence of a regimental saving-bank. His experience in this matter was similar in the Ionian Isles. The gallant Commodore, the Member for Marylebone, after having pleaded so warmly the other night against the reduction of the complement of men in the naval service, would surely support the same view of the case of the army, and not wish to decrease the comforts or injure the health of the soldier. He quite agreed with the gallant Commodore in what he had said upon that subject, though he would not follow him to the length of saying that, in consequence of the deficiency in the complement of men for the Mediterranean fleet, if the French had come down upon the British, they would have been defeated. He thought the practice of the gallant Commodore would in such a case have been directly at variance with his observations in that House and that he would have shown the enemy from the quarter-deck of the Powerful, that he was not acting under the influence of the opinions he had expressed here. Indeed, he was firmly of opinion, considering the skill of the British, not only in regard to seamanship, but in gunnery, and their dauntless courage, that even had the fleet been diminished still more in its complement of men, the French would not have beaten them, had they tried.
§ Sir C. Napierdid not wish it to go forth to the whole country, that he had led the hon. and gallant Gentleman, or that House, or the world, to believe that the British navy would not have done their duty, and have done it well, had they been brought into action with an enemy. But he would tell the House of Commons again, and he would have the whole country know it, that he most conscientiously and firmly believed that if the British navy had come into contact with the French after they began their operations in Syria, and got sickly, and that if they had done their duty to the utmost of their power, they would have been defeated. It was not right nor proper to despise an enemy too much. The French had made such progress in gunnery, and equipment, and seamanship, that they commanded respect. They ought to remember that America 172 was once despised, and that at a time when there was a civilian at the head of the navy an inefficient fleet was sent out, and the result was, that the British flag was tarnished. He warned the Government against pursuing a like course in these days.
§ Sir E. Troubridgeregretted much to hear the observations which had been just made by the gallant Commodore in respect to a question understood to be the same that had been discussed on a former evening—namely, as to whether or not the British fleet in the Mediterranean would have been defeated had it encountered the French under the circumstances described. Now, he never could concur in the idea entertained by the gallant Commodore, and he would boldly say, that the commander-in-chief of that fleet never did concur in any such idea. He knew that at the time there were in the Mediterranean 750 supernumerary marines, who would have been on shipboard had it been considered necessary; and he would further say boldly, and without fear of contradiction, that the result of an action with the French fleet would have been quite different from that stated by the gallant Commodore. He had not expected to speak on this subject; he was sorry that he was out of the House just at the commencement of the present discussion; but he could not come in and hear even the few sentences he had heard from his gallant Friend—for he was sure that he might venture to call him so—without rising to say that his notion of a British fleet being defeated was most extraordinary. He was grievously sorry the other night when he heard so many British officers in that House not upholding the service, but doing the very reverse. He should have spoken on that occasion, but he gave way to some hon. Gentlemen, and he must say now, that he should never regret having taken no part in that debate, for it did no credit to the British navy. Many observations that were made were doubtless well meant, but they were both ill-judged and ill-timed. He felt that to go into the question, whether a civilian or a naval man should be first Lord of the Admiralty, would be out of place now, and he would leave that and other points which had been touched upon until a future opportunity.
§ Sir C. Napierrose to explain. The gallant Officer was mistaken. When he 173 was in command at Sidon they received 250 marines only, and they were not enough to make up the deficiency caused by sickness. They were 100 men short of their complement, and had 134 sick. He maintained, that if the French fleet with 800 or 900 men had come down upon them, to such a pitch had they carried gunnery, that at the first broadside 100 men would have been knocked off, and where would the British have been then? The gallant Officer did not know what it was to be beaten, but he did. He fought a French ship once in the West Indies, and had his leg broken, and his mainmast knocked away; and had the enemy stuck to him, he should have been a dead man.
§ Captain Layardthought 6d. a day after twenty-five years' hard service not a sufficient pension for soldiers, but he believed that the right hon. Gentleman, who was a friend to soldiers, would increase it, were he able. He wished, however, to ask the right hon. Gentleman, if there was an intention of altering the system under which soldiers obtained their discharge. According to the present regulations the prices paid for a discharge were as follows:—
| Cavalry. | Infantry. | |
| Service | £ | £ |
| Under 7 years | 30 | 25 |
| 10 | 25 | 13 |
| 11 | 21 | 15 |
| 12 | 15 | 10 |
| 14 | 12 | 5 |
| 15 | 6 | Free. |
§ He believed, that if the prices of a discharge were diminished, men would be less reluctant to enter the army, and the friends of many would be willing to let them remain for a time before they bought them off, in order that they might enjoy the advantageous results of a course of discipline which was calculated to reclaim the idle and dissolute, and make them eventually good members of society. He thought the present regulations unjust to the old subalterns, and put it to gallant Gentlemen in the House whether there was a class of men more deserving of consideration. He agreed with what had fallen from the hon. and gallant Officer with respect to the necessity of increasing our troops in India; but he should have mentioned the Burmese, who, if any fresh disaster should happen to the British, which God forbid! would, he believed, also attack them.
174§ Sir H. Hardingewished to say, in reply to the observations of the gallant Officer opposite (Captain Layard) upon the subject of discharges, that in 1829 he introduced the system of allowing soldiers to obtain their discharge at a price in proportion to their length of service; and although it was feared by many officers that the plan would very much disturb the regiments of the line, it was found to operate most beneficially. Questions like that under the consideration of the House ought to be considered in connexion with the finances of the country. Speaking from the experience of the last ten years, he must confess, that he agreed with the gallant Officer, that perhaps a shorter period of service might be advantageously introduced. The question was deserving of the consideration of her Majesty's Government. With reference to what had been stated on the subject of the warrant of 1829, he must observe, that he still adhered to the opinion which he had repeatedly urged to the House on that subject. When he brought forward that warrant in 1829, it was submitted to the Duke of Wellington's Government, and it received his approbation, as well as the approval of distinguished military authorities. The hon. Member for Coventry stated to the House, that it was not his wish to press his motion to a division, provided the Government assured the hon. Gentleman that a large portion of the force was destined for service in China, and the East-Indies. There was already a very large British force in that country, a larger force than had been there at any previous period—seven battalions alone were destined for that part of the country. With regard to the half-pay of the army, a considerable reduction had been made since the period to which the hon. Member referred. The reduction had been 6,000 out of 17,426 on the half-pay list. He could, if it were necessary, go through the individual items and figures to which the attention of the hon. Member for Coventry had been directed, and answer satisfactorily any objections which he had brought against them; but, were he to do so, much of the valuable time of the House would be unnecessarily occupied. There had been considerable reduction in the number of half-pay lieutenants; great difficulty was experienced in inducing lieutenants who had been on half-pay to return to active duty, as nearly 175 half a century had elapsed since the last war. Since that period 6,709 officers had paid the debt of nature, and were no longer a charge upon the public. He thought that this statement ought to sufficiently satisfy the economical appetite of the hon. Member for Coventry. It should also be recollected that many regiments had served fifteen, seventeen, and twenty years in India.
§ Viscount Howickwas pleased to hear the hon. and gallant Officer state, that a question of this character ought to be viewed in relation to the financial condition of the country. He was glad to perceive, since the hon. and gallant Officer had left that (the Opposition) side of the House, that his views on such subjects had undergone some modification, and that he now thought it necessary to view, in connexion with them, the state of the public finances. He wished to refer to the state of the barrack department in the West Indies. During last year no discussion on this subject took place when the Ordnance estimates were under the consideration of the House. He had not anticipated that Lord Vivian would cease to belong to the House, for he had intended to bring the subject connected with the state of the barracks in the West Indies before the attention of Parliament, but was prevented by circumstances, which it was not necessary for him to explain, from doing so. He had no wish to cast imputation on Lord Vivian, for the question to which he had alluded was one of many years standing.
§ Sir H. Hardinge, in explanation, staled, that the noble Lord who had just addressed the House had misunderstood what he had said. His opinions had not, as the noble Lord had represented, undergone any alteration since he had arrived at that (the Ministerial) side of the House. According to the warrant of 1829 the pension was to be 6d. per day, the period of service was to be twenty-five instead of twenty-one years, and that arrangement was submitted to the highest authorities, and had been approved of. He was satisfied that a great modification must take place in the existing warrant; and, although he was not then prepared to state what he considered ought to be the alteration, he hoped that before the next year's estimates were laid upon the Table, he would be able to submit to the House a motion on the subject which would be satisfactory to the noble Lord.
Lord J. Russellobserved, that he hoped hon. Members would not fall into the error of believing that the soldier after twenty years service was entitled to a pension. He had received several letters from colonels in the command of regiments in which complaints were made that a proper distinction was not made between deserving and undeserving soldiers, and that the latter often received as much pension as the former.
Mr. O'Connellwished to detain the House for one moment. He was pleased to hear what fell from the hon. and gallant Officer opposite, with reference to the administration of religious instruction to the troops stationed at the Ionian Islands during the period the hon. and gallant Member held an official appointment there. He understood that after an application to the noble Lord (Lord Howick), three Catholic chaplains were sent from this country to the Ionian Islands, and he could not but compliment the noble Lord on the promptitude with which he had complied with the hon. and gallant Officer's request. It was his intention to bring the subject connected with the communication of religious instruction to the Catholic soldiers serving in her Majesty's forces in other parts of the country under the notice of Parliament. The hon. Member then proceeded to make some allusions to the influence of party spirit in the army, and stated, that during the late disturbances in Canada he was pleased to perceive the absence of all such feelings. As he was informed that there was to be no recruiting in Canada, and that the officers were to be sent from this country, he would not occupy the time of the House by any additional observations on that part of the subject.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ On the question, that the sum of 3,581,575l. be granted for her Majesty's land forces at home and abroad, exclusive of India,
Mr. Williamsmoved as an amendment that the vote should be reduced 63,580l being the difference between the sums paid to an equal number of soldiers of the line, and of the Guards.
§ Sir H. Hardingesaid, that question had been discussed for twenty years by committees of the House of Commons; framed upon what were termed liberal principles, and it had been found that this corps, in addition to the duty of attending 177 the Sovereign, performed the general duties of the metropolis in a superior manner. A residence in London was more expensive than one in country quarters, and there were various circumstances that should be taken into consideration, and which rendered it necessary that those troops should have some additional pay. He had heard with surprise the assertion that the officers were highly paid, when it was notorious that the junior officers gave their services to the public almost for nothing. There was no body of troops who had performed their duty better than the guards. Two battalions of them were now in Canada, and there was scarcely any European service, requiring highly efficient performance, for which the Horse-guards would not employ her Majesty's guards.
§ Colonel Rawdonsaid, the difference between an ensign's pay in the guards and one in the line was only 3d. a-day. When an officer lived in London in lodgings, at his own cost, and was without the advantage of a mess, his expenses were greater, and he was sure the committee would not think the difference too great when all circumstances were taken into consideration. He believed that the lieutenants in the guards received a difference of l0d. a-day as compared with the pay of lieutenants in the line; but the same remarks applied to the lieutenants as to the ensigns of the guards; and in his estimation, considering the circumstances he had mentioned, the additional pay of officers in this branch of the service was by no means too great.
Colonel Thomas Woodconcurred with the gallant Officer who had just spoken. Whatever advantages the officers and men of the guards might possess, they were well earned and well deserved. It would not become him to institute a comparison between the guards and other regiments of the service; but this he might remark, that her Majesty's household troops were as good (and that was saying much) and as efficient as any branch of the British army.
Mr. Williamshad offered no opinion as to whether the pay of the guards was too much or too little. He had merely pointed out the difference in their pay as compared with the rest of the army, and conceiving that there was no sufficient ground for such a difference, he felt it his duty to take the sense of the committee upon it.
§ The committee divided on the amendment:—Ayes, 12; Noes, 144:—Majority, 132.
| List of theAYES. | |
| Blewitt, R. J. | O'Connell, J. |
| Brotherton, J. | Villiers, hn. C. P. |
| Buller, C. | Wawn, J. T. |
| Cobden, R. | Wood, B. |
| Curteis, H. B. | |
| Fielden, J. | TELLERS. |
| Morris, D. | Bowring, Dr. |
| O'Connell, D. | Williams, W. |
| List of theNOES. | |
| Acland, T. D. | Forbes, W. |
| Acton, Col. | Forester, hn. G. C. W. |
| Antrobus, E. | Forster, M. |
| Arkwright, G. | Fuller, A. E. |
| Bailey, J., jun. | Gaskell, J. Milnes |
| Baird, W. | Gladstone. rt. hn. W.E. |
| Baring, hon. W. B. | Gordon, hon. Capt. |
| Barneby, J. | Goulburn, rt. hon. H. |
| Baskerville, T. B. M. | Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. |
| Bateson, Sir R. | Greenall, P. |
| Beckett, W. | Grogan, E. |
| Bentinck, Lord G. | Halford, H. |
| Berkeley, hon. C. | Hamilton, W. J. |
| Bernard, Visct. | Hardinge, rt. hn. SirH. |
| Boldero, H. G. | Harris, J. Q. |
| Botfield, B. | Hepburn, Sir T. B. |
| Bramston, T. W. | Herbert, hon. S. |
| Broadley, II. | Hodgson, R. |
| Browne, hon. W. | Hope, hon. C. |
| Bruce, Lord E. | Hope, A. |
| Buller, Sir J. Y. | Hope, G. W. |
| Busfield, W. | Howard, hn. C. W. G. |
| Campbell, A. | Humphery, Mr. Ald. |
| Carnegie, hon. Capt. | Irton, S. |
| Chelsea, Visct. | James, Sir W. C. |
| Chetwode, Sir J. | Jermyn, Earl |
| Childers, J. W. | Johnson, W. G. |
| Clerk, Sir G. | Johnstone, A. |
| Cockburn, rt. hn. SirG. | Johnstone, Sir J. |
| Colebrooke, Sir T. E. | Jones, Capt. |
| Coote, Sir C. H. | Kemble, H. |
| Copeland, Mr. Ald. | Knatchbull, right hon. |
| Corry, rt. hon. H. | Sir E. |
| Cripps, W. | Knight, F. W. |
| Dawnay, hon. W. H. | Langston, J. W. |
| Denison, E. B. | Law, hon. C. E. |
| Dickinson, F. H. | Lawson, A. |
| Dodd, G. | Layard, Capt. |
| Douglas, Sir H. | Leicester, Earl of |
| Douglas, Sir C. E. | Lennox, Lord A. |
| Douglas, J. D. S. | Lincoln, Earl of |
| Drummond, H. H. | Lockhart, W. |
| Egerton, W. T. | Lygon, hon. General |
| Eliot, Lord | Mackenzie, T. |
| Escott, B. | Mackenzie, W. F. |
| Estcourt, T. G.B. | Mahon, Visct. |
| Ferguson, Sir R. A. | Mainwaring, T. |
| Ferrand, W. B. | Marsham, Visct. |
| Filmer, Sir E. | Martin, C. W. |
| Fitzalan, Lord | Martyn, C. C. |
| Fitzroy, Capt. | Masterman, J. |
| Ffolliott, J. | Morgan, O. |
| Mundy, E. M. | Somerset, Lord G. |
| Napier, Sir C. | Stanley, Lord |
| Nicholl, rt. hon. J. | Staunton, Sir G. T. |
| Paget, Lord W. | Stewart, J. |
| Patten, J. W. | Stuart, W. V. |
| Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. | Stuart, H. |
| Peel, J. | Sutton, hon. H. M |
| Plumridge, Capt. | Taylor, T. E. |
| Pollock, Sir F. | Tennent, J. E. |
| Praed, W. T. | Trotter, J. |
| Pringle, A. | Troubridge, Sir E. T. |
| Pusey, P. | Vere, Sir C. B. |
| Rae, rt. hn. Sir W. | Villiers, Visct. |
| Reade, W. M. | Vivian, J. E. |
| Rennie, G. | Wood, Col. T. |
| Round, C. G. | Wortley, hon. J. S. |
| Russell, Lord J. | Wyndham, Col. |
| Russell, J. D. W. | Young, J. |
| Scott, hon. F. | Young, Sir W. |
| Shaw, right hon. F. | TELLERS. |
| Sibthorp, Col. | Fremantle, Sir T. |
| Smollett, A. | Baring, H. |
§ Vote agreed to.
§ Several other resolutions were agreed to.
§ On the question that 82,458l. be granted to defray the charge of the volunteer corps,
Mr. Williamsconceiving that this force was not at all necessary, felt it his duty to take the sense of the committee upon the vote.
§ The committee divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 17:—Majority 116.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Acland, T. D. | Corry, right hon. H. |
| Acton, Col. | Courtenay, Visct. |
| Anson, hon. Col. | Cripps, W. |
| Antrobus, E. | Dawnay, hon. W. H. |
| Arkwright, G. | Denison, E. B. |
| Bailey, J., jun. | Dickinson, F. H. |
| Baird, W. | Dodd, G. |
| Baring, hon. W. B. | Douglas, Sir H. |
| Barneby, J. | Douglas, Sir C. E. |
| Baskerville, T. B. M. | Douglas, J. D. S. |
| Bateson, Sir R. | Drummond, H. H. |
| Beckett, W. | Duncombe, hon. A. |
| Bentinck, Lord G. | East, J. B. |
| Boldero, H. G. | Eaton, R. J. |
| Botfield, B. | Egerton, W. T. |
| Bramston, T. W. | Eliot, Lord |
| Broadley, H. | Escott, B. |
| Browne, hon. W. | Estcourt, T. G. B. |
| Bruce, Lord E. | Ferrand, W. B. |
| Buller, Sir J. Y. | Filmer, Sir E. |
| Campbell, A. | Fitzalan, Lord |
| Carnegie, hn. Capt. | Fitzroy, Captain |
| Chelsea, Visct. | Ffolliott, J. |
| Chetwode, Sir J. | Forbes, W. |
| Childers, J. W. | Forester, hon. G.C.W. |
| Clerk, Sir G. | Forster, M. |
| Cockburn, rt. h. Sir G. | Fuller, A. E. |
| Coote, Sir C. H. | Gaskell, J. Milnes |
| Copeland, Mr. Aid. | Gladstone, rt. hn. W.E. |
| Gordon, hon. Capt. | Masterman, J. |
| Graham, rt. hon. Sir J. | Morgan, O. |
| Greenall, P. | Mundy, E. M. |
| Grogan, E. | Nicholl, rt. hon. J. |
| Halford, H. | Paget, Lord W. |
| Hamilton, W. J. | Patten, J. W. |
| Hardinge, rt. hn. SirH. | Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. |
| Hepburn, Sir T. B. | Peel, J. |
| Herbert, hon. S. | Pollock, Sir F. |
| Hodgson, It. | Pringle, A. |
| Hope, hon. C. | Pusey, P. |
| Hope, A. | Rae, rt. hon. Sir W. |
| Hope, G. W. | Rawdon, Col. |
| Humphery, Mr. Ald. | Reade, W. M. |
| Irton, S. | Round, C. G. |
| James, Sir W. C. | Scott, hon. F. |
| Jermyn, Earl | Shaw, rt. hn. F. |
| Johnson, W. G. | Sibthorp, Col. |
| Johnstone, A. | Smollett, A. |
| Johnstone, Sir J. | Somerset, Lord G. |
| Jones, Capt. | Stanley, Lord |
| Kemble, H. | Staunton, Sir G. T. |
| Knatchbull, right. hon. | Stewart, J. |
| Sir E. | Stuart, W. V. |
| Langston, J. W. | Stuart, H. |
| Law, hon. C. E. | Sutton, hon. H. M. |
| Lawson, A. | Taylor, T. E. |
| Leicester, Earl of | Tennent, J. E. |
| Lennox, Lord A. | Trotter, J. |
| Lincoln, Earl of | Vere, Sir C. B. |
| Lockhart, W. | Villiers, Visct. |
| Lygon, hon. General | Vivian, J. E. |
| Mackenzie, T. | Wortley, hon. J. S. |
| Mackenzie, W. F. | Wyndham, Col. |
| Mahon, Visct. | Young, J. |
| Mainwaring, T. | Young, Sir W. |
| Marsham, Visct. | TELLERS. |
| Martin, C. W. | Fremantle, Sir T. |
| Martyn, C.C. | Baring, H. |
| List of the NOES. | |
| Berkeley, hon. Capt. | Martin, J. |
| Blewitt, R. J. | Morris, D. |
| Brotherton, J. | Napier, Sir C. |
| Bu | Powell, C. |
| Busfie-W. | Villiers, hon. C. P. |
| Cobden, R. | Wawn, J. T. |
| Curteis, H. B. | Wood, B. |
| Feilden, J. | TELLEBS. |
| Harford, S. | Bowring, Dr. |
| Howard, hn. C. W. G. | Williams, W. |
§ Vote agreed to, as was several other resolutions.
§ On the question that 141,493l. be granted for the charge of pensions to widows of officers,
Mr. Williamsbegged to know upon what principle these pensions were granted; and whether they were paid to the widows of officers who died after retirement from the service, as well as to the widows of officers who died in actual service.
§ Sir H. Hardingereplied, that the wi- 181 dow of no officer who had retired on half-pay, unless he did so from woundsor other infirmities contracted in the service, was entitled to a pension. Neither was any pension given to any widow unless her husband had been ten years in the service. The widow of no officer who married after sixty years of age was entitled to a pension.
§ Vote agreed to. The other votes also agreed to.
§ On the question that 41,000l. be granted for allowances, compensation and emoluments, in the nature of superannuation or retired allowances to persons formerly belonging to the several public military departments,
Mr. Williamsexpressed his disapprobation of what appeared to him to be the very large amount of retired allowances made in the case of clerks who had served in the Ordnance department.
§ Sir H. Hardingeexplained, that the allowances to which the hon. Gentleman referred were made to the senior officers of what during the war was a very large department. These officers, during the time that their services were required, received very high salaries, and upon their retirement received a compensation correspondingly high.
§ Vote agreed to.