HC Deb 24 February 1842 vol 60 cc1010-1
Mr. Muntz

moved, "That at future divisions of this House, neither the strangers in the Gallery nor the reporters shall be required to withdraw, except by special motion for for that purpose."

The Speaker,

before putting the question, begged to observe to the hon. Member, that he could hardly put the motion without the standing order relative to strangers being rescinded. If the hon. Member wished, he might move that the standing order be rescinded before putting the motion.

Mr. Muntz

stated, that he would avail himself of the suggestion of the Speaker.

The standing orders were then read by the Clerk as follows:— Ordered, that the Sergeant-at-arms attending this House do, from time to time, take into his custody any stranger or strangers that he shall see, or be informed of, to be in the House or Gallery, While the House, or any committee of the whole House, is sitting; and that no person so taken into custody be discharged out of custody without the special order of the House. Ordered, That no Member of this House do presume to bring any stranger or strangers into the House or gallery thereof, While the House is sitting.

Mr. Muntz

moved that these orders be rescinded.

Sir R. Peel

stated that his vote on this occasion would be determined by a sense of the public convenience. They ought not, in his opinion, to vary lightly that which was an old practice and established usage of the House. There ought to be some strong case of public inconvenience established to induce them to depart from that which had been established. Of late years there was even less reason than formerly for strangers remaining in the gallery; for now, whatever were the votes given by the Members, the surest plan had been adopted by the House of notifying them to the public. By the publication of the name of each Member, and how he had voted, the fact material to the public to know was ascertained. If they were to lay down a rule on this subject, it ought to be an uniform one, and declare that strangers had a right to be there during the debates as well as during the divisions. If they did do so, great inconvenience might be occasioned to the House, for it frequently happened that the places allotted to strangers were required for the Members themselves, and he believed that if the pro- posed change took place, the division lists could not be so satisfactorily made out as at present. If strangers were to remain during the divisions, the confidence now felt in the accuracy of their returns as to divisions would be much shaken. He could not conceive any good reason for making the alteration, and he therefore trusted that the House would adhere to the ancient practice.

Mr. Aglionby

asked the right hon. Baronet whether it were not extremely absurd to retain on their standing orders that which was so contrary to the truth? It was said that Members should not bring strangers, and every day Members brought them in. While, too, these standing orders said that strangers were to be excluded, a part of the House was fitted up for strangers.

Mr. Wallace

suggested that strangers might be allowed to remain in the gallery during divisions, and then, if any inconvenience were felt from the practice, they might return to the present system.

Dr. Bowring

was sure no hon. Member could have heard the Standing Order read without blushing at the absurdity and mendacity of it; and he really thought it due to the character of the House to expunge it.

Mr. Muntz

wished to observe, in reply, that the right hon. Baronet had misunderstood his motion. He had not said anything with regard to the strangers in the lower part of the House. There might be, he was quite aware, great difficulties attending a division if they were suffered to remain, but his motion merely referred to the occupants of the galleries, who could not in any way interfere with a division.

The House divided on the question that the said orders be rescinded— Ayes 51; Noes 187: Majority 136.

List of the AYES.
Adam, W. Evans, W.
Blake, Sir V. Fitzroy, Lord C.
Blewitt, R. J. Gibson, T. M.
Bowes, J. Hill, Lord M.
Bowring, Dr. Humphery, Mr. Ald.
Bridgeman, H. Hutt, W.
Brotherton, J. Jardine, W.
Cobden, R. Johnson, Gen.
Denistoun, J. Layard, Captain
Duke, Sir J. Leader, J. T.
Duncan, G. Mangles, R. D.
Duncombe, T. Marsland, H.
Dundas, A.D. Martin, J.
Elphinstone, H. H. Morris, D.
Murphy, F. S. Turner, E.
Murray, A. Wallace, R.
O'Brien, W. S. Wason, R.
O'Connell, D. Wawn, J. T.
Pechell, Captain White, S.
Pinney, W. Williams, W.
Plumridge, Captain Wilson, M.
Powell, C. Wood, B.
Ramsbottom, J. Wood, Sir M.
Redington, T. N. Worsley, Lord
Rice, E. R. TELLERS.
Somerville, Sir W. M. Muntz, G. F.
Tancred, H. W. Aglionby, H.
List of the Noes.
Acton, Col. Douglas, Sir H.
Adderley, C. B. Douglas, Sir C. E.
Ainsworth, P. Drummond, H. H.
Allix, J. P. Duffield, T.
Antrobus, E. Duncombe, hon. O.
Arkwright, G. Du Pre, C. G.
Bailey, J. Eaton, R. J.
Bailey, J. jun. Egerton, W. T.
Baillie, H. J. Eliot, Lord
Baldwin, C. B. Escott, B.
Balfour, J. M. Estcourt, T. G. B.
Baring, rt. hon. F. T. Farnham, E. B.
Barnard, E. G. Fellowes, E.
Barneby, J. Feilden, W.
Barrington, Visct. Ferrand, W. B.
Beckett, W. Filmer, Sir E.
Bell, M. Fitzroy, Captain
Beresford, Major Fleming, J. W.
Bernard, Visct. Follett, Sir W. W.
Blackstone, W. S. Ffolliott, J.
Bodkin, W. H. Forester, hon. G.C.W.
Boldero, H. G. French, F.
Borthwick, P. Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.
Botfield, B. Gore, W. R. O.
Bradshaw, J. Goring, C.
Bramston, T. W. Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Broadwood, H. Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Brownrigg, J. S. Granby, Marquess of
Bruce, Lord E. Greenall, P.
Bruce, C. L. C. Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.
Buckley, E. Grimsditch, T.
Burdett, Sir F. Grogan, E.
Burrell, Sir C. M. Hale, R. B.
Burroughes, H. N Halford, H.
Campbell, A. Hamilton, W. J.
Carnegie, hn. Capt. Hamilton, Lord C.
Chapman, A. Hastie, A.
Chelsea, Vscount Hawes, B.
Clerk, Sir G. Hawkes, T.
Clive, hon. R. H. Heneage, G. H. W.
Cochrane, A. Heneage, E.
Codrington, C. W. Henley, J. W.
Colebrooke, Sir T. E. Hepburn, Sir T. B.
Colville, C. R. Hodgson, F.
Compton, H. C. Hodgson, R.
Copeland, Mr. Ald. Houldsworth, T.
Corry, right hon. H. Holmes, hn. W. A'Ct.
Cresswell, B. Hope, A.
Darby, G. Howard, hon. G.
Denison, E. B. Hughes, W. B.
Dick, Q. Irton, S.
Divett, E. Irving, J.
Jackson, J. D. Rolleston, Col.
Johnson, W. G. Rose, rt. hon. Sir G.
Johnston, A. Round, C. G.
Johnstone, H. Rushbrooke, Col.
Kelburne, Visct. Russell, Lord J.
Kemble, H. Ryder, hon. G. D.
Labouchere, rt. hn. H Sanderson, R.
Lambton, H. Sandon, Visct.
Legh, G. C. Scott, hon. F.
Lincoln, Earl of Seymour, Sir H. B.
Lindsay, H. H. Sheppard, T.
Litton, E. Shirley, E. J.
Loch, J. Shirley, E. P.
Long, W. Sibthorp, Col.
Lowther, J. H. Smythe, hon. G.
Lowther, hon Col. Smollett, A.
Lygon, hon. General Somerset, Lord G.
MacGeachy, F. A. Stanley, E.
Manners, Lord J. Stansfield, W. R. C.
March, Earl of Stuart, Lord J.
Martin, C. W. Stuart, W. V.
Martyn, C. C. Strickland, Sir G.
Masterman, J. Strutt, E.
Meynell, Colonel Sturt, H. C.
Morgan, O. Sutton, hon. H. M.
Mostyn, hn. E. M. L. Tennent, J. E.
Mundy, E. M. Thompson, Mr. Ald.
Neville, R. Trotter, J.
O'Brien, A. S. Tuite, H. M.
Ossulston, Lord Vane, Lord H.
Packe, C. W. Vere, Sir C. B.
Palmer, G. Waddington, H. S.
Palmerston, Visct. Welby, G. E.
Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. Whitmore, T. C.
Plumptre, J. P. Winnington, Sir T. E.
Pollock, Sir F. Wodehouse, E.
Praed, W. T. Wood, C.
Pringle, A. Wortley, hon. J. S.
Protheroe, E. Wyndham, Col.
Pusey, P. Young, J.
Rae, rt. hon. Sir W. TELLERS.
Reid, Sir J. R. Fremantle, Sir T.
Richards, R. Baring, H.