DISTRESS IN PAISLEY.

HC Deb 08 February 1842 vol 60 cc177-91

Mr. Wallace

said, that in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of the misery and destitution under which the inhabitants of Paisley and other towns in Renfrewshire had been so long suffering, he felt it due to that House to be as brief as possible. He should be thus brief in his statements, because he was convinced, that no aid would be required from him in making it evident, that great distress really existed; but the House and the country did not know the extent of the privations that had been brought to light by the committees appointed by the charity of individuals in that part of the country, and who had gone into all portions of the town of Paisley and its neighbourhood, in the course of their inquiries. As far as that misery had been made known, great sympathy had been excited; and he felt assured, that all that part of the country was truly sensible and grateful for the kind feeling that was so generally shown, and for the great sympathy that had been ex- hibited, from the Queen on her Throne, down to almost the meanest of her subjects. The distress of these people seemed to him as if it had been an incentive to them to behave, if possible, with more peacefulness and propriety. The town of Paisley had been, as was well known, for a long period employed in supplying fancy articles to the trade of London and other large towns in the kingdom; and, therefore, any stoppages, in trade, or any revulsion, had almost always fallen upon them, in consequence of orders not coming in for that description of goods. Her Majesty's Government were aware, that 17,500 persons were represented as in the receipt of daily assistance in the town of Paisley, and other neighbouring towns, of whom 15,000 were in Paisley alone. There were also 1,000 hand-loom weavers, and the committee were employed in giving them webs to supply them with occupation; besides whom there were 1,000 labourers, who were likewise employed by that same committee. The weavers could make by these webs at the rate of 4s.a week, but not more, working at them fourteen, fifteen, or sixteen hours a day. On the other hand, those who were supplied with money wherewith to obtain provisions for themselves and families, received about 1s. per week, or perhaps 2d. per day, for each individual. Now all those who had attended to the subject of gaols knew that the inmates were provided with food, which, supplied in the most economical manner, cost considerably more than double that amount, in order to maintain the prisoners in health and strength, Among the sufferers, however, in Paisley and its neighbourhood, there was little or no clothing, and no bedding on which to lie. And here he would draw a comparison between them and those who had the good fortune to be placed in gaol, or in some house of correction. He blamed no one: he would say nothing as to the causes of all this; but he would say, that the distress had reached an extent in his part of the country, that led him to the conviction, that it was his positive duty, or that of some other Member of the House, to make the statement, that he now took the opportunity of making. His proposal was, as would appear from the notice he had given, for an inquiry to be made, and that "an immediate and diligent inquiry." He had been asked by many hon. Members what sort of inquiry he proposed; and he had also been asked (he thought half officially) what was his own view on the subject? He believed that the only proper mode of making this inquiry would be to make it upon the spot, one or two persons being sent from London to carry on the investigation, and to report thereupon to the Government, and if it were customary in such cases, to the House. When he handed his notice to the Speaker, it would be seen that he had inserted the words, "upon the spot," as he deemed such an inquiry to be the only one that would be satisfactory. A Committee of that House had been suggested to him, but such a plan would lead to an endless inquiry, and no good result would be derived from it. It would occupy a committee very long, and would be calculated to raise hopes among the suffering people of Paisley and its neighbourhood that might not he realized, and would make them believe they were entirely neglected. He had been induced to urge this inquiry on the Government, since he had heard the reply given to the question put to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), as to emigration. The people of Paisley had a strong belief that a large field was about to be opened to them in the way of emigration. He intended to throw the blame on no one; but still the sufferings of those for whom he now spoke were not the less severe. There were large numbers of destitute who were not provided for by charity. If they came openly forward, they would be provided for, in one way or another; but a vast number of them could not be induced to come forward; and he had excellent authority for saying that such great destitution and misery were exhibited to the Committees of ladies and gentlemen who investigated the state of those classes, that they came home with a degree of sorrow and disgust, and with a feeling of total hopelessness that he could not describe. He had seen with great satisfaction, that a proper gift from the Government stores had been made to those persons, in a similar predicament, in Spitalfields; and he hoped that there would be a disposition on the part of the Government, to make a similar gift to his countrymen, who if the Spitalfields weavers deserved it, deserved it no less. He could assure the House, that nothing could exceed their misery or their deserts; and he therefore trusted that the Government if assistance had not already been sent to Paisley would raise means, by which the inhabitants of that town and its vicinity could be assisted. He would not conceal from the House, or from the Government, that the week before he came to London, a resolution to that effect had been come to by the relief committee of Paisley, presided over by the Provost of the town, and supported by the clergy and the great body of individuals of any station there. There were both clergy of the established Church and of dissenting congregations present at that meeting. A motion was made, that a petition should be sent to the Government praying for stores, either in the way of gift, as to the Spitalfields poor, or at a small cost, on which the committee might expend their remaining funds, and that such food as they could command, might be taken, free of duty, from the bonded stores. He held a copy of that resolution in his hand, but, he did not think it necessary to read it to the House. He regretted to add, that, great as was the distress in Paisley and its neighbourhood, it was still increasing, and that greatly diminished the prospect of employment to the people in the town. The distress was on the increase in Ayr, Renfrew, and the adjoining counties. It happened that many of those unfortunate people had work given for which their looms were not suited, and vast numbers of them went out on the roads to break stones, or undertook other heavy out-door work. At first, their hands were blistered, but after a while they got hard, and would in time become unfit for the fine work in which they would be employed in their own trade whenever it revived. He had now done, and should only offer his humble recommendation that two or three active, sensible Gentlemen out of that House—without the expense of a well paid Commission—should be sent down to Paisley to ascertain the actual condition of the people, and the extent of the distress. If that inquiry was refused to him, he hoped at least that her Majesty's Ministers would be prepared to bring forward some measure to relieve the distress and destitution, which was greater than he had known, even in the misery which had afflicted the people from time to time in the last twenty-five years. He concluded with moving an Address, Praying her Majesty will be graciously pleased to command that an immediate and diligent inquiry he made into the nature and extent of the misery and destitution under which the inhabitants of Paisley, and other towns in Renfrewshire have been suffering for so long a period, and are still enduring; and, further, that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to command that the said inquiry be prosecuted vigorously, so that the results may be laid, as soon as possible, before this House, with a view to its providing, with all speed, against the longer continuance of the intolerable distress; as also against the evident and imminent danger of disease and pestilence following in its usual course, thereby causing more numerous deaths from cold and hunger and actual starvation than hitherto, as well as increasing the ruinous tendencies of these appalling evils on the moral character of all who are directly affected by them, or who live within the range of their influence.

Sir J. Graham

said, that he would preface the few observations which he intended to make to the House with expressing his opinion that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was entitled to great praise for the temperate and judicious manner in which he had brought forward this motion. With respect to the distress which the hon. Gentleman so feelingly described, he would admit that the hon. Gentleman had not exaggerated when he said that the number of persons now subsisting upon weekly relief in Paisley and its neighbourhood was 17,000. Under such circumstances it was hardly possible to exaggerate the distress, and that distress could be rendered more painful by no one circumstance more than by the excitement of expectations which must be disappointed. He therefore felt that it was the duty of the Government, as well as of the House, to proceed with the utmost caution. If there were any dispute as to the facts, he could understand the necessity for an inquiry. But he admitted that the distress was great, and he also fully admitted that no praise could be too high for the exemplary patience and fortitude with which it was borne. All the rights of property were observed in that neighbourhood, and the law was not violated. Under such circumstances he should think it the height of imprudence to take any steps which would excite hopes and at the same time disappoint them. He thought that the arrival in that district of two commissioners specially appointed, not to ascertain the fact of the distress—for that was admitted—but to make an inquiry, which in the terms of the hon. Gentleman's motion would "lead to speedy relief"—would raise hopes which it would be most imprudent to excite unless the House saw how that relief could be obtained. If the hon. Gentleman wanted to prove a special case by a searching inquiry, he should say that that inquiry would probably be best conducted on the spot by commissioners; and he could understand that there might be many special circumstances under which such an inquiry might be both requisite and useful, but he had great doubts that it could be so in so large a community as that of Paisley and its neighbourhood. That community had been fur a long time subsisting on the wages arising from a manufacture in which they peculiarly excelled, and their great misfortune was, that the necessity for the use of that article had ceased suddenly, and to a great extent. There had been also a large export of that article to America, and the community of Paisley necessarily became involved in the distress consequent on the failure of the American trade. Then also the magistrates, who were creditors to a great extent of their fellow-citizens, and were the depositories of the money lodged in the savings banks, became involved in the general distress, and added to it by not being able to meet their liabilities. All these special circumstances would be, no doubt, very useful in proving a special case; but if the hon. Gentleman desired to have these circumstances investigated, he should say, that it should not be by a commission. The better course would be by a committee of this House, before whom, not a great number, but a few competent witnesses might be examined, and the facts duly established. He should say, that if this course would be likely to be satisfactory—and on this point the hon. Gentleman was able to judge, he should not object to it; but, as the matter now stood, he should say, that the appointment of a commission would give rise to misunderstandings, and lead to expectations which there could be no reasonable probability of their being ever able to realise. Under these circumstances, if the hon. Gentleman should divide the House on his motion as it now stood, he should, though not without great pain, feel it his duty to vote against it. The Government were not without information on the subject of the present distress. In every county in Scotland they had a sheriff substitute constantly reporting the state of facts to Government, and it was not therefore necessary to bring persons here from Scotland to give that information which the Government was now receiving from those officers. But if there was any specific point which it was necessary to investigate, into which the Government had neglected to inquire, and as to which the hon. Gentleman had some peculiar sources of information, he should be willing to assist in investigating it. But though he should be sorry to do anything which the hon. Gentleman would think unkind, yet, acting on general views and not wishing to raise false expectations, be hoped the hon. Gentleman would not press the motion to a division; if he should, it would be his duty to vote against it.

Mr. Hastie

wished to say a few words with respect to what had just fallen from the right hon. Baronet. He had heard nothing from that right hon. Baronet which could afford a hope to the distressed people of Paisley that relief of any description was at hand. It was stated that 17,000 persons had been depending for some time on a sum originally of not more than 6,500l., and out of which the relief committee had now funds in hand not more than 1,500l. This had been generously provided by the liberality of the country, but it was impossible that those subscriptions could be long continued, and then, unless some relief should come from her Majesty's Government he would look forward to the consequences with fear and trembling. He threw out these hints that the House might take them into consideration before despair should seize on the unhappy sufferers of Paisley.

Mr. W. S. O'Brien

thought this a good opportunity to make a few observations on the petition which he had presented the other night, praying that the Government might assist the suffering people of Paisley by an extensive system of emigration. He held in his hand a document which was signed eighteen months since, by no less than 3,000 persons, that on the part of the Government some aid should be given to the working classes by emigration. The fact was, that the amount which had been since employed in relieving their immediate distress would have been sufficient to place these people in situations where they could obtain ample remuneration for their labour. He was afraid that any change that could be proposed in the Corn-laws would not be a remedy of such a palpable character as those people seemed to expect. Hon. Members would see in all the papers that came last year from New South Wales complaints that the resources of that country could not be made available for want of sufficient hands. Last year 106,000 persons emigrated, but not more than one third of them went to British colonies; and in these colonies the great demand for labour was still unsatisfied. A great country like this, which found no difficulty in raising funds for any wars—no matter how speculative might be their characters —should not say that it could not find funds for so benevolent and beneficial a purpose as that of sending the unemployed and superabundant portion of its population to those colonies where they might obtain employment and food in abundance.

Mr. Wakley

said, it was impossible to hear the satements of the hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion without feeling the deepest commiseration for the sufferings which he described; but, at the same time, the case was one presenting extraordinary difficulties, because, if relief should be given in this case out of the public funds, it would be impossible to conceive but that other places would make similar applications, and the consequence would be, that complaints of injustice and partiality would arise from their not doing in other places what they had done in this. The hon. Gentleman, he must say, brought forward this case in a manner calculated to obtain for him the best attention not only of the House, but of the country at large. He made his allegations in such a manner that not a single fact was disputed, and that even the Government admitted that there was no doubt as to the facts. But the hon. Gentleman had failed to suggest a remedy. What was the use to inquire, when the facts were admitted—when every statement respecting them was regarded as rather under than over the mark? The question now was, had the hon. Gentleman any proposal to make for the relief of the distress which was admitted to exist? The proposal of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was feasible, but a great deal of time must elapse before it could be carried to such an extent as to produce any perceptible effect. His object in rising was to ask those Gentlemen who were acquainted with the law of Scotland what was the nature of the Poor-law in that country, and why the property of Scotland was not applicable as well as that of England to relieving the distress of the poor? He saw the Lord Advocate in his place, and he would ask him was there a Poor-law in Scotland? He understood that there was. And next, because it was no use for Scottish Gentlemen to come here and make application for the relief of that distress for which, perhaps, the existing law of Scotland might provide, he would ask what was the state of the administration of that law? If there were an adequate Poor-law it should be enforced; and if there were not, they ought to call on the Government to say that the poor of Scotland should he provided with an effectual Poor-law, that would give them instantaneous relief. He would undertake to carry such a law in one week if he could command a majority of ninety in that House. He understood that there was something bearing a resemblance to a Poor-law in Scotland, though he could not well understand how that could be, as there were no poor houses there—he did not mean such poor houses as we had now in this country, for such houses he had no desire to see established in Scotland or anywhere else, but such poor houses as we formerly had here. Considering what were now the sufferings of so many human beings in that country—the patience with which they had been borne, and the results to which they might lead if not soon relieved, he thought it would be a satisfaction to the House and to the country to know precisely and distinctly what was the nature of the poor-law of Scotland, and how it was carried into effect; for if it was not effectual for relieving the distresses of the poor of that country, he was confident that an effectual law would be speedily adopted.

Mr. R. Yorke

considered the reply of the right hon. Baronet, under the circumstances, an unfeeling one. It struck him that if they were to have a commission, it was one before which he would be competent to appear, as he had been lately in Paisley himself for the purpose of ascertaining the facts respecting it. When he was there, he found 14,000 persons in a state of starvation, and those were depending upon the providential interposition of charity. His hope was, that Parliament would take off all taxes that affected articles used for the sustenance of human life.

Sir V. Blake

said, as the motion was for an address to the Crown, he should propose, as an amendment, that the inquiry be extended, not alone to the nature and extent of the distress in Paisley, but also to the causes of the distress, as well as its nature and extent, that now unhappily prevailed throughout every part of the United Kingdom. The Parliament held in 1665 passed a bill perpetually to prohibit the exportation of all cattle from Ireland, dead or alive, great or small, fat or lean, which caused the greatest distress in Ireland. He had been informed that the lace and woollen manufactures of Germany could, after paying twenty per cent. ad valorem duty on the importation of those articles into England, and defraying the charges of freight by steam-vessels and carriage by railway, sell them even in Nottingham at full fifty per cent. under the price they could be manufactured for in England. If that was the fact, he added, the landlords were mad who refused to give the assistance necessary to the English manufacturer by repealing the provision laws. Every principle of humanity, policy, and justice demanded this concession at their hands; and if they did not grant it they might rest assured, that by means of the Poor-law, the paupers of this country would be speedily their masters.

Sir R. Peel:

Sir, I should be very sorry indeed if any contention of debate, or any other cause whatever, could for a moment provoke the slightest levity of manner in this House on such a subject as that before us; and I therefore earnestly hope that the hon. Gentleman opposite will not press his motion. I hope that nothing will occur to create the least impression, that the House does not deeply sympathise with the distress of the poor of Paisley, as well as with the distress of those in every other part of the kingdom. I give full credit for sympathy with that distress to the hon. Gentleman who has brought forward this motion, and I am sure the House goes with him in that sympathy to the greatest extent. But I also think, that it is a matter of the last importance, not alone to these poor people, but to the country at large, that this sympathy should not betray us into the position of exciting unfounded hopes in their minds, which can end only in disappointment. And I look upon it as a point of greater importance still, that we should not, by any act or deed of ours, directly or indirectly, discourage those local exertions for the relief of that distress which there is no doubt exists—which alone can be effectual for the purpose. Nothing should be done by us that has the slightest tendency to cause any remission in those laudable exertions, but, on the contrary, we should encourage, by all the means in our power, those on the spot, who from their own abundance contribute to the assistance of their poorer fellow-men. If we hold out hopes that cannot be realised, what will be the effect of them upon the community? What, for instance, would be the effect of a scheme of emigration as applied to the distress of Paisley? Two commissioners are suggested by the hon. Gentleman to ascertain the exact amount of the distress of that town, and to suggest a remedy for it. Suppose they suggest emigration. How will the case stand then? The hon. Gentleman who proposed the motion has told us, that the habits of the poor people of that town, and the nature of their previous occupations, render them wholly unfit for any severe out-door labour, and that they are, therefore, incapable, even in their own country, of turning their labour to any employment besides that they had followed, with any chance of a profitable result. If that be the case in this country, how much more so must it be the case in a new country, in one of our colonies for instance—where they could only hope to exist by the severest description of outdoor labour. But there is another point of view in which this case must be looked at if justice be done it. You must also take into your consideration the condition of the colonies themselves. You must not—you cannot, on any ground of justice or reason—send out persons front this country who are unfit for them. If you do, the immediate consequences of your act will be the utmost suffering to the parties whom you send out—persons inadequate to the exigencies of a colonial life—incapable of hard labour, and wholly unfit for the position in which you place them, while you will give the colonies the most just cause of complaint against you. I should dunk the greatest objects of relief in Paisley, for instance, are of all others the least fitted, on the hon. Gentleman's own showing, for the purposes of emigration. Young men of twenty or thirty years of age, whose hands are not yet wholly formed to any particular occupation, and whose frames are not warped into any particular attitude, in consequence of such occupation, may, it is true, earn their bread in Australia, or in Canada, but will any one say, that these are the real objects to be relieved, if you set about applying a remedy to the existing distress. No; the real objects to be relieved are men of fifty or sixty years of age, with large families — with hands formed, as the hon. Gentleman says, to their previous occupations—with bodies which cannot be bent to any other position than those occupations require—and consequently with an utter incapacity to subsist themselves in a colony where their occupations are unknown, and where only the hardest labour is available for a scanty support. But suppose you do send these poor persons out to our colonies. Are you, in the first place, prepared to send all their families along with them, or do you purpose to separate them from one another? If you send them out, unfitted as they are for the labour by which they can alone win a subsistence in the colonies, will you not send them, in such case, to suffer the greatest privations? Then, are you prepared to support them in the colonies? You cannot expect that the colonies will do so? and you know beforehand, from the hon. Gentleman, that these poor people are unfitted by their previous occupations to support themselves. If you do not support them, what will be the consequences? I can see none but absolute starvation for them and their families when they reach the colonies. Sir, under these circumstances, I hope the motion before the House will not be pressed to a division by the hon. Gentleman who has proposed it. If you agree to it, those who have hitherto been the most active and zealous in contributing to the support of the suffering poor of Paisley, will naturally remit their noble exertions, depending then altogether upon the interposition of the Government; and, further, the poor of that town will be taught to look for relief, from those who live among them to the Legislature, which Cannot apply any effectual aid to their distress. That aid, to be effectual, must be local; and the motion of the hon. Gentleman, if acceded to by the House, would be at least but the postponement of the evil day. In the interval of six weeks that he proposes for this inquiry, I doubt not that any two or more men of common sense would finally report, that nothing could be done in the matter, and in the meantime the inquiry would serve but to aggravate and embitter the prevailing distress. I say not a word about hopes excited only to be disappointed—or of the effect that such an inquiry would naturally and necessarily have upon other places distressed, though not perhaps to the degree that prevails in Paisley; but, as in my opinion, it would be the greatest pain to the House to refuse its acquiescence in the motion, while I can see no ground on which they could accede to it, I have that confidence in the hon. Member—a confidence inspired by the temperate and judicious manner in which he has proposed it—which induces me to hope that he will not, under the circumstances, persist in pressing it on the consideration of the House.

Mr. Wallace

said, that not a single word had fallen from him as to the advantages of a more extended system of emigration. He had only said, that the unfortunate people of Paisley, whose cause he had that night advocated, thought that an extended system of emigration was about being carried into execution by her Majesty's Goment, but that idea would have been already destroyed by the speech which the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had delivered the other night, and which would by this time have reached them. When he had first brought his motion forward he did not know that the facts which lie had mentioned respecting the existence of the distress would have been admitted in that House to the full extent to which lie had stated them. He had not been aware, when he had given notice of his motion, that the Government had stepped forward in an unusual mariner, and had assisted the unfortunate people of Spitalfields by supplying them with clothing. The importance of these facts he wished to impress upon the minds of the Government. His motion contained an allusion to the disease, which, according to the opinions of the most eminent medical men, did not accompany, but which followed on the heels of such distress. On that point he would now say no more. He had wished that an inquiry should be instituted, and preventive means should be adopted, but as the Government had been receiving information from the county with which he was connected, and communications from its sheriff-depute, whose office, though not his name, had been mentioned in the course of the debate, and who was entitled to the confidence either of this or of any other Government—as they, too, were more competent than he could be to deal with the matter; and, knowing as he did how inefficacious a commission would be, though he had told his friends around him that he should divide the House before the right hon. Baronet had tendered him his advice, he now, under all the circumstances, would certainly withdraw his motion. He was content with finding that the feeling which had spread through the length and the breadth of the land was felt and had been evinced by the Members of the House of Commons. He now, with the permission of the House, begged to withdraw his motion, and he trusted that the Government would be enabled to perform their task connected with this subject without meeting with any difficulty from the course which he had that night adopted.

Lord Stanley

said, that he merely wished to say a single word on a remark which had been made by the hon. Gentleman opposite. In his opinion, nothing could be more creditable to the hon. Member than the manner in which he had brought forward his motion; but it was most desirable that no impression should go abroad, arising from the accidental silence, of the intentional concealment of those connected with his department, that an extensive system of emigration was about to be adopted by the Government. It was most desirable that no such idea should be encouraged amongst the distressed people of Paisley. This rumour had been spread abroad. He had had repeated communications from many respectable persons connected with the working classes, asking him to explain the intentions of Government on this subject. He had throughout discouraged any such belief gaining ground. He had again and again said, that the rumour was entirely without foundation. He had not thought it right to make any public declaration on the matter, but in all the inquiries—and they had been numerous—which had come from Paisley, he always discouraged such ideas.

Mr. Wallace

said, that, so far from the noble Lord misrepresenting the matter to the people of Paisley, he knew that he had had the candour distinctly to tell them that there was no such intention on the part of the Government. He had also distinctly told them that any schemes of extended emigration were not in agitation; but the only answer which he had got was, that "he had nothing to do with the present Government, and that as to the Government themselves they could not believe them."

Motion withdrawn.

Mr. Wakley

thought that some explanation should be given as to the system of Poor-laws in Scotland.

The Lord Advocate

would say a few words on the general question. There were Poor-laws existing throughout Scotland, but in many parishes it was not found necessary to put them into execution. They provided for every real pauper, but of course some check was necessary as to the distribution of relief. In England that check was found in the system of poor-houses; but this plan not being adopted in Scotland another was substituted in its place, and, accordingly, no relief whatever was given to able-bodied men. He could assure the House that that relief had not been found wanting in the grievous distress of the people of Paisley. A sum to the amount of ten thousand pounds had, in one form or another, been bestowed on the suffering poor of that place. It was a great and important question, whether a workhouse system was a better system; but into such a question the House could not now expect him to enter.