Mr. O'Connellsaid, that he believed he could now make the motion of which he had given notice respecting the late trial for Ribbonism at Armagh. His object was not to pronounce any premature censure upon the Government as connected with the transaction in question. He thought there could possibly be only one opinion as to the nature of those transactions, especially as to the employment of the witness Hagan. The only question appeared to be, upon whom did the responsibility devolve? If the misconduct was to be attributed to the magistrates and witnesses, they would be liable to censure, and without anticipating any connexion between the Government and those parties, if the Government sanctioned the conduct of those witnesses, he thought he would be 1070 safe in saying that the House would be unanimous in censuring such conduct. He did not suspect that thenoble Lord (Lord Eliot) participated in those transactions. The mode in which he personally conducted himself in Ireland precluded such a 'notion. It was not for him to speak in terms of flattery of the noble Lord, but he might speak of him as an act of justice, and he was sure if the noble Lord had more power, there would be no cause for complaint, The trial at Armagh was one of Ribbonism, and as that was an expression fortunately not known in this country, he would state what the nature of that offence was, It was a crime committed by persons who entered into secret societies, and made use of signs or pass words for the purpose of being able to recognise each other. There did not appear to be any defined object of these associations of persons. It was, however, certainly, a highly criminal association, and he knew no man who was really a friend to Ireland, who had not exerted himself to put down these societies. He begged the House to keep in mind that, the possession of pass-words made the person liable to transportation. Four persons were tried at the last Armragh assizes; two witnesses were produced to procure a conviction; one or these was a man named Hagan, who had acted as a spy upon the prisoners; he pretended to be a Ribbonman, he joined them; made himself acquainted with their secrets and their pass-words, and this he had done for the express purpose of denouncing them. The hon. and learned Gentleman read the evidence of Hagan, the approver, to the effect that the magistrates were aware of his proceedings, and that he had made Ribbonmen by the hundred. He invented sixty-three classes or pass-words, and disseminated large quantities of illegal papers, the mere possession of which was a transportable offence. Now they were to take every word this man had sworn as true; though it was difficult, yet as it had the sanction of the jury, they could not do otherwise. In the next, place the Government must also have believed it, for they had transported the persons convicted on that evidence. All he required was, that the correspondence between the magistrates and this man, or the magistrates and the Government, should be produced. Lie did not believe for one instance that, the noble Lord had the least knowledge of any trans 1071 actions of this description. No man who sat on the other side of the House could spurn with greater indignation such an insinuation than he would. He trusted, therefore, the Government would not attempt to screen the parties implicated in these transactions. He moved merely for the correspondence—he cast no censure upon the Government by his motion. He entirely absolved the noble Lord from all knowledge of such a transaction. In the case of Popay, the then Government had not attempted to cast any shield over him. Lord Althorp had at once granted a committee of inquiry into his conduct, and had stated it as his opinion, that the employment of spies to entrap persons into guilt was a most abominable system. That abominable system had been denounced in just and eloquent terms by the counsel for the defence, who, notwithstanding he was of Conservative politics, yet did his duty nobly to his clients, and in such a manner as reflected the highest honour on the Irish Bar. Lord Althorp had stigmatised the spy system as abominable and atrocious. That was stronger language than he (Mr. O'Connell) ever used. He knew the noble Lord opposite would not attempt to justify such conduct. He trusted he would not withhold the documents. He (Mr. O'Connell) censured no one at present—he knew not who was responsible for that conduct. These documents would inform him;` and from them he should learn against whom it would be his duty to move for a committee of inquiry in the course of next Session. The right hon. and learned Gentleman concluded by moving,
That there be laid before this House copies of or extracts from the correspondence between the Government and the magistrates, relative to the witnesses produced on the trial of Hare and others, at the late Armagh assizes, for Ribbonism.
§ Lord Eliotsaid, if anything could induce him to accede to the motion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman, it would be the calm and temperate manner in which the right hon. Gentleman had introduced it. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had not endeavoured to cast any censure upon the Government, and he did not therefore resist the motion on that ground; but he thought he should betray his duty, if he were, by assenting to the production of these papers, to furnish what he could not but consider a dan 1072 gerous and inconvenient precedent. He had had no opportunity of seeing the correspondence, but he could well conceive that it was of a confidential nature, and that the production of it might tend to defeat the ends of justice, either by putting on their guard persons who might be implicated, or who might be objects of suspicion to the local authorities, or, on the other hand, that it might tend to fix imputations upon persons who might subsequently be proved to be entirely innocent of the charges brought against them. Hagan had said, that he initiated persons into Ribbonism, with the knowledge of the police and the magistrates. Upon that point he was not prepared to give an opinion. He had no hesitation in saying, that the report of the trial referred to by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, was altogether inaccurate. He had searched the Dublin newspapers of the day, and had found no mention whatever of the occurrences described in that paper. In this opinion he was confirmed by the testimony of one who was in court during the whole of the trial, and who was now at the head of the constabulary force of the county of Suffolk. He was not at that moment able to say whether, or to what extent, the local authorities were cognizant of Hagan's proceedings, but he had no hesitation in saying, that if they were cognizant of them, their conduct was altogether unjustifiable. He was satisfied that there was nothing in the correspondence which reflected any blame on the Government. He felt it his duty, however, and it was a painful duty, because he could wish that the whole matter was investigated by the House, but he felt it his duty, for the reasons which he had stated, not to consent to the production of these papers. He was certainly thankful to the right hon. Gentleman for the opportunity which he had afforded him of disavowing on the part of the Government all participation in those proceedings. Whatever advantage might be derived from obtaining information of the proceedings of secret societies by the aid of spies and informers, he thought the advantage would not compensate for the injustice and injury which would be done by employing paid agents to procure information. It was with considerable reluctance that he felt it his duty to object to the production of the correspondence.
§ Mr. Humesaid, he was glad to hear the 1073 disclaimer of the noble Lord on the part of the Government, of all participation in these proceedings. He wished to know, however, whether Hagan had received any pay from the Government?
§ Lord Eliotsaid, that Hagan, in his evidence, distinctly denied having received any reward. In such a country as Ireland, where the great majority of crimes arose out of secret societies, it was almost impossible to obtain evidence without the aid of approvers, and though no rewards should be given beforehand, he did not think it was inconsistent with the character of the Government to give to approvers sufficient for their subsistence until their services were required.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the noble Lord greatly mistook his purpose, when he attributed to him a desire to see any part of the correspondence which related to any persons accused of crime. The correspondence which he wanted was that which would show who it was that employed those persons. With respect to what the noble Lord had said as to the employment of approvers, he admitted that there was a distinction between an approver and a spy. An approver was as different from a spy, as an honest man was from an approver. He should feel it his duty to divide the House.
§ The House divided:—Ayes '24; Noes 72: Majority 48.
| List of the AYES. | |
| Aglionby, U. A. | Langton, W. G |
| Aldam, W. | Morris, II. |
| Bowring, Dr. | Pechell, Capt. |
| Browne, hon. W. | Smith, B. |
| Bryan, G. | Somers, J. I', |
| Cobden, R. | Tuffnull, II, |
| Duncombe, T. | Turner, E. |
| Forster, M. | Williams, W |
| Gill, T. | Wood, B. |
| Gore, hon. R. | Yorke, H. R. |
| Hawes, B. | |
| Heathcoat, J. | TELLERS, |
| Howard, hon. H. | O'Connell, D |
| Hume, J. | Wyse, |
| List of the Noes. | |
| A'Court, Capt, | Botfield, B. |
| Allix, J. P. | Broadley, H. |
| Archdall, Capt. | Clayton, R. R. |
| Arkwright, 0. | Clerk, Sir C. |
| Baird, W, | Cockburn, rt. hon. Sir G |
| Baring, hon. W. B. | Corry, rt. hon. |
| Bentinck, Lord G. | Cresswell, B. |
| Blackstone, W. S. | Darner, hon. Col. |
| Bodkin, W. H. | Darby, G. |
| Boldero, H. G. | Douglas, Sir C. E. |
| East, J. B. | Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H. |
| Eliot, Lord | Jones, Capt. |
| Estcourt, T. G. B. | Knatchbull, rt. hon. Sir E. |
| Flower, Sir J. | Lefroy, A. |
| Follett, Sir W. W. | Lincoln, Earl of |
| Ffolliott, | Lockhart, W. |
| Forbes, W. | Lowther, J. H. |
| Forester, hn. G. C. W. | Lowther, hon. Col. |
| Fuller, A. E. | M'Geachy, F. A. |
| Gaskell, J. Milnes | Marsham, Visct. |
| Gordon, hon. Capt. | Masterman, |
| Gore, M. | Meynell, Capt. |
| Gore, W. R. 0. | Mundy, E. M. |
| Goulburn, rt. hon. H. | Nicholl, rt. hon. J. |
| Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. | Palmer, G. |
| Grant, Sir A. C. | Peel, rt. hon. Sir R. |
| Greene, T. | Peel, J. |
| Hale, R. B. | Pothill, F |
| Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H | Round, J. |
| Hardy, J. | Sandon, Visa. |
| Henley, J. W. | Sheppard, T. |
| Herbert, hon. S. | Stanley, Lord |
| Hervey, Lord A. | Sutton, hon. H. M. |
| Hodgson, R. | Young, J. |
| Hogg, J. W. | |
| Hope, hon. C. | TELLERS |
| Hussey, T. | Fremantle, Sir T. |
| Jermyn, Earl | Pringle, A. |
Mr. O'Connellthen gave notice, that he would move next Session for a committee to inquire into the subject of the employment of Hagan and Cox.