HC Deb 26 April 1842 vol 62 cc1129-39
Mr. O'Connell

said, he rose to call the attention of the House to a subject of great importance. He begged to assure the House that he brought the question forward with the greatest reluctance, not being willing to trouble the House upon such a matter if he could have avoided it. He had received communications upon the subject from various quarters—some of which came from humble but much interested individuals, such as private and non-commissioned officers serving in India. He had also received communications from persons in a higher rank and station in society to the same effect. His motion related to Catholic soldiers serving in India and the East generally, and their religious instruction. He did not include in his motion anything that related to the state of the army in other parts of the British dominions. There was a sum of 11,000l. allocated to the purposes of religious instruction in the British army, but no part of that sum it appeared was laid out in India; it was entirely confined to other parts of the British empire; 700l. he believed was the only sum allowed for religious instruction in the East. His present motion related to the soldiers in India and China, where months and years were passing over them without ever receiving any instructions from their clergy, which instruction was much more urgently demanded at a period when that army was actively engaged. With respect to the army in China, he had received a communication from a gentleman who was situated in that quarter, and whose name was the hon. Capt. Jerningham, an officer who had been serving there with much distinction. This gentleman stated, that the situation and sufferings of the Catholic soldiers there, were not to be disregarded, as they were willing to go as readily into danger as their comrades, and were as anxious to share the same perils and were exposed to the same effects of the climate as the most gallant amongst the army, and they fought in the field with the same undaunted valour. Many of these soldiers however perished more from disease than any thing else, and this gentleman, the hon. Capt. Jerningham, was ready to give to the House an account of the great privations and sufferings which had been undergone by this class of soldiers from the causes he had already alluded to. The Protestant Soldiers were treated with the greatest humanity, not only with regard to their temporal wants, but everything was done to alleviate the miseries of their situation. All he had to regret was, that the Catholic soldiers were wholly deprived of the benefit of similar assist- ance to that which the Protestant soldiers possessed. It was a case of the most complete religious destitution, and he was totally misinformed of the fact if it was not true that no Catholic clergyman attended these troops to China; and, with the exception of Macao, where one or two missionaries might be met with, the Catholic soldiers were altogether deprived of the consolations of their religion. Every person who knew the nature of the Roman Catholic religion—of that religion which he professed—must be aware that the necessity for the assistance of a clergyman of that faith was much more important to a Roman Catholic than to a person of any other religion. The administration of the sacraments was solely confided to them, which sacraments afforded the Roman Catholics the greatest consolation and mental relief. He was quite warranted in saying that as far as the troops in China were concerned, they were totally destitute of that which he supposed every hon. Member in that House believed must be of the utmost importance. In India, also, the troops were scattered in such a remote degree from each other that they could hardly receive the assistance of a single Catholic clergyman. He had received a letter from a Catholic clergyman, dated the 19th February, 1842, an extract from which he was now induced to quote. [The right hon. Gentleman read an extract from this letter, which stated that, to the honour of the poor soldiers at Cabool, the great majority of whom were Roman Catholics, they, though perishing by hunger as well as by their wounds, never for one moment abandoned Captain Sturt (the son-in-law of General Sale) while he was living, but remained with their unfortunate officer until the very last of them was sacrificed. Not one of them escaped. The writer then lamented the religious destitution to which these Catholic soldiers were reduced, which added considerably to the misery with which they were surrounded.] He had experienced considerable disappointment upon this subject. The late Government had given him a pledge that something should be done to remedy the evil of which he complained, but nothing, he was sorry to say, had ever been done. It was very well known that an interview had taken place between several Roman Catholic gentlemen and Mr. Grant (afterwards Lord Glenelg) and Mr. Gordon, the Secretary to the Treasury; and it was understood from this interview that money would have been advanced to meet the circumstances of the case. That pledge he had urged upon the late Government, and be was promised that something should be done. He was, however, sorry to say that nothing had ever been done in the matter, and the evil remained the same. When he had asked the right hon. Baronet opposite whether any thing was in contemplation by the present Government to remedy this defect, the right hon. Gentleman was pleased to refer him to a document which had been laid on the Table by Lord Ashley, in the month of March, 1839. He felt that he had a right to facilitate very much the increase of the army in India, if some redress in this respect was likely to be afforded. With respect to the document alluded to, he was led to believe that there was nothing at all consolotary in the real state of things as described in this document. He found from this document, that in Madras there were nineteen Protestant and Presbyterian stations, and only in twelve stations had the Roman Catholics any opportunity of receiving religious instruction. The Protestant stations were supported by a sum of 22,010l. a year, and the Presbyterian by a sum of 2,080l. But for the Roman Catholics the whole sum afforded to dispense religious instruction was 770l. There was then something approaching to the sum of 1,200l. a year allowed for each of the Protestant clergymen, so that one Protestant clergyman received more than was paid for the entire support of the Roman Catholic clergymen. In Bombay there were twenty stations for Protestant clergymen, but only seven for Roman Catholics. The Protestant clergyman received a salary of 950l. a year, but only one Catholic clergyman received 200l. a year, and all the rest of the Catholic clergymen only 60l. a year. In Bengal the number of Protestant stations was twenty, and Roman Catholics only seven. The minimum salary of a Protestant clergyman was 900l. a year, and the entire of the Roman Catholic clergymen had only 60l. a year, with the exception of one who had a salary of 250l. a year. This state of the army in India was the subject of constant remonstrance by the different commanders who had served in that part of the world. The Marquess of Hastings in his despatches strongly recommended the consideration of this matter to the Government of that time, and every commander-in-chief down to Sir Henry Fane repeated from time to time the same recommendation. Sir Henry Fane at first refused to concur in any suggestion of this nature, and when requested by the people who were interested in the question to submit their claims to this assistance upon the British Government he peremptorily refused to do so. The regiment in whose behalf this favour was asked was that which so nobly distinguished itself in the capture of Ghuznee; and there was this singular fact connected with it, that, having been quartered for some years at Kurnaul, some persons suggested the propriety of raising a subscription for the building of a chapel. The privates and non-commissioned officers then subscribed a sum of 6,000 rupees, about 600l. to that purpose. With respect to the asylum for Catholic children at Bengal, there was a practice followed which was most afflicting to the religious feelings of a Catholic soldier—namely, being often compelled to send his children to those schools, where they were obliged to learn the Protestant catechism, and not allowed to read any Catholic books. In this particular many of the officers quartered there had behaved most harshly. There was one gallant officer, however, Lieut.-Colonel Bretton, who conducted himself on the contrary most humanely, and with a due respect to the conscientious opinions of the Roman Catholic soldiers. This gallant officer gave them every opportunity of having those persons the soldiers liked to teach them their own religion. Grievances of a most afflicting nature, and of such a character as he had described, the soldiers in the east were suffering under. In the immense territories of the East Indies it was almost impossible under the present system for a Catholic soldier to get any relief. There were some sixteen or eighteen stations in the Burmese Empire where the Protestant soldiers alone were attended to. Considering the immense tract of country in that quarter of the globe, and the great distance between the regiments, the religious assistance to the army partook more of the character of a mockery than any real relief from religious instruction. He perceived among the papers before the House repeated reports of commanding officers. There were General O'Halloran's reports, and General Sale's reports, all of which showed that where soldiers had clergymen of their own religious opinion to instruct them there was a marked difference in their character. They were celebrated for their sobriety, obedience, attention to their officers, and all those characteristics by which a good soldier should be marked. He was, therefore, strongly confident in the belief that it was but necessary to let those facts be known to have the remedy for the evils complained of applied. The papers talked of their being one half of the army Roman Catholics in the east; he would, however, only take it at one-fourth. A notion had gone abroad, that in the army the Irish soldiers were more apt than any others to be sent out to India. He presumed, that this was a great mistake, as he did not think that there was any such design on the part of the Government. At all events, it was true that a considerable portion of these soldiers were Roman Catholics, and he would ask, why should not those persons have every opportunity of meeting their clergymen? Whenever he thought there was a sufficient number of Roman Catholics in any of these regiments to want such assistance, a chaplain of the same religion should be appointed. He submitted, that a Christian community ought not anywhere to be left destitute of this means of spiritual relief, consolation, and religious instruction. He did not say, that the Protestant clergymen received a shilling too much for the instruction afforded by them to the soldier professing the Protestant religion; nor did he wish to diminish their stipends. All he wished was to remove the grievances of which he complained. It was not his intention to press the motion to a division, if he received an assurance from the Government that the subject would be taken into their serious consideration with a view of remedying the evils which now existed. He submitted, that he had made out a sufficient case for the inquiry, and he should therefore move the appointment of a select committee to consider and report upon the state of spiritual destitution of the Catholic soldiers serving in India and China.

Mr. B. Baring

said, that so far from denying the claim of the Roman Catholic soldiers to have their material and spiritual comforts considered, he was of opinion they were entitled to as much consideration as the Protestant soldiers. The principle upon which the Government of India had acted was this. They had never, upon any occasion, that he was aware of, denied a salary to a Roman Catholic chaplain, appointed by a competent authority in that country; and moreover, with the view of encouraging the services of Europeans in that capacity, they had increased the pay of those chaplains. In the provinces of Penaang and Malacca, the salary was 250l. a-year. In other parts, some of the salaries certainly did not exceed 60l. a-year; but the chaplains so paid were paid in consideration of the services which they rendered, and the number of persons to whose spiritual instruction they gave their superintendence. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had drawn a comparison between the amount paid to the Presbyterian church and the Roman Catholic church. This was not the time to enter into that question, inasmuch as it involved the expediency of a church establishment, and the complaint was not that the clergy of the church were overpaid, but that the Roman Catholic clergy were underpaid. When troops were spread over a large extent of country, it was extremely inconvenient to give them spiritual instruction; but the governor of India had uniformly acted on the principle which he had mentioned, and had, on all occasions, afforded all the spiritual instruction in his power. The governor of India had also subscribed towards the repairs of Roman Catholic chapels, and had facilitated the introduction of building materials, prayer-books, and other articles necessary for the performance of divine worship. The right hon. and learned Gentleman alluded to certain hardships experienced in the asylum at Bengal, and complained of the capricious interference of the commanding officers, and the attempts made to force the Roman Catholics to receive instruction in a form of worship, not in accordance with their religious principles. This matter was represented to the Governor-general, by whom it was referred to the commander-in-chief, and no time was lost by the latter authority in issuing such instructions as must render it impossible for such practices to be continued. He believed, that the appointment of the committee which had been moved for by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, would not have the effect of bringing any material information before the House, and he trusted, that the motion would not be pressed, as the system now in operation would remedy the evils of which the right hon. and learned Gentleman had complained.

Mr. Hume

said, when he was in India, the ordinary troops were in cantonments in considerable numbers, and great attention was generally paid to them. At the present moment, when the troops were scattered about, as they must necessarily be in time of war, it was almost impossible to prevent the occurrences of which his right hon. and learned Friend had complained; and no one who had attended to the conduct of the Indian Government, and the care which it usually bestowed on the troops, could hesitate to say that any representations made by the Roman Catholics would be readily attended to, for their own interests would induce the Government in India to make those troops as comfortable as possible.

Sir H. Hardinge

was glad that the right hon. and learned Gentleman had brought forward his motion in such a temperate tone, and there could be no doubt that his statements would receive the full consideration which they deserved. At the same time he was bound to say that some of the complaints made had arisen from accidental causes, and such occurrences would now and then take place when regiments were very much dispersed. He could state, on behalf of the Army generally, that in every regiment there was a desire on the part of the officers to pay every attention to the wishes of their Roman Catholic brethren. He would call the attention of the right hon. and learned Gentleman to what took place the year before last. Mr. Langdale brought forward a motion with respect to the conduct of the commissioners of the school at Chelsea. The commissioners,- one of whom was the Bishop of London,—afterwards met, and they decided that it was not proper, nor was it the intention of any of the parties to compel the children of Roman Catholic soldiers to be taught the church catechism; on the contrary, there was to be in that asylum the most perfect liberty of conscience, and the resolution passed by the commissioners was to this effect—that, subject to some minor restrictions, every child of a Roman Catholic soldier, or belonging to any sect of Protestant dissenters, should be exempted from the duty of learning the church catechism, and should be suffered, under the regulations of the asylum, to attend the public worship of the religious persuasion of such soldier, and every application for the relaxation of the rules in the case of such child should be made by the father, if living, or by the mother. The whole question was settled to the satisfaction of Mr. Langdale, a Roman Catholic Member of the House, and a most respectable gentleman; and he felt convinced that the same system, the same rules, and the same principle pervaded the whole of the army. This country received the benefit of the assistance of Roman Catholic soldiers, and he believed there was not an officer in the British service, who would not admit that their religious feelings ought to be respected in every possible way. The right hon. and learned Gentleman said that the Protestant soldier in China when labouring under disease had the opportunity of receiving that spiritual consolation of which the Roman Catholic soldier was deprived. Now he very much feared that the Protestant and Roman Catholic soldiers were both on the same footing in this respect. He feared that there were no longer chaplains in our regiments in China. Of late years it had not been the custom to send chaplains out with the army; and even in the Peninsular war in 1813 there were only ten to the whole army. Both at home and abroad the soldier was invited to attend religious worship according to his own creed either in church or chapel. And the principle laid down was, that the soldier, wherever it was practicable, should be accommodated in the parish church, and there receive his religious instruction; but where there was not sufficient accommodation a separate service was paid for, and a large portion of the 20,000l. to which the right hon. and learned Gentleman had referred was paid to the clergymen of the Established Church, as well as to the Members of the Roman Catholic religion, for separate services given to soldiers. Now in this state of things it appeared to him that it was better for the soldiers to receive instruction in the parish church or chapel, than to have a chaplain for every regiment. He did not see in what way the existing arrangements could be altered, nor did he see what would be gained by the appointment of a committee. He thought the return to the old system of having regimental chaplains, either for Protestants-or Roman Catholies, would be full of inconvenience. The greatest cordiality and good fellowship at present existed in our regiments; but if two clergymen of different denominations or creeds should be appointed in the same regiment, he was confident the discipline of the British Army would materially suffer; and if such a system should be adopted on board our ships, it would not only be full of inconvenience, but would be dangerous to the efficiency of her Majesty's navy. He entirely concurred in all that had been said with respect to the merits of the Roman Catholic soldiers, who were entitled to every consideration on the part of the Indian Government, and he trusted, after what had been stated by his hon. Friend, who was connected with the Board of Control, that the motion would not be pressed to a division.

Sir R. Inglis

said, that he would not interrupt the temperate tone of the debate by hazarding a harsh observation on the subject; he knew how much easier it was to conciliate a little peace by the abandonment of a principle; but he could not adopt that course, and he must, therefore, say that he had heard something from both sides of the House to which he could not assent. He therefore hoped that, in a tone of equal calmness, he might be permitted to state wherein he differed from the hon. and learned Member. The principle contended for by the hon. and learned Member would, if carried out, introduce into the army not only Roman Catholic chaplains, but by a parity of reasoning chaplains belonging to every sect of Dissenters, he felt it necessary, therefore, to object to the principle upon which the demand was made. He did not consider it necessary to enter further into those other conscientious objections to such a motion as the present, which it was well known that he entertained, as he would not willingly give offence to the hon. and learned, Member. It was sufficient for him to state, that unless the House was prepared not only to maintain one established clergy, but also to maintain an Established Church in the shape of every variety of creed which any individual could possibly entertain, they could not in principle accede to the present motion.

Mr. O'Connell

replied. He admitted, that he did not know that a better system could be adopted than that which prevailed in Europe, and most of our colonies; but India was one of the exceptions. In that country, no religious instruction could be obtained from the localities. The troops were surrounded by the heathen. He could not conceive, that he should be violating Christian principles if he went the length which the hon. Baronet (Sir R. H. Inglis), thought so shocking,— namely, that when a considerable number of soldiers of any one persuasion entered a regiment, they should be enabled to attend divine worship without giving up their own religion. On the whole, he did not see that any good could arise from his dividing on the question. The replies of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) and the hon. and gallant Officer were so consolatory as to warrant him in withdrawing his motion.

Motion withdrawn.