COUNTY CORONERS.

HC Deb 05 May 1841 vol 57 cc1455-73

The House in Committee for the re-consideration of the County Coroners bill,

Clause 1 agreed to.

On Clause 2,

Mr. Wakley

said, that the clause provided that justices of the peace should meet in Session for the purpose of dividing the counties into districts. He thought it would be but an act of courtesy if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pakington) proposed in his bill that, before counties could be divided into districts, coroners should receive intimation of what the justices intended to do. He was aware that in arguing the case of the coroners against the justices in that House, there were fearful odds against him. It was extraordinary that justices of the peace, without giving notice to the coroners of what was to be done, should consider that they had the power to decide what was more convenient for the public than the coroners themselves who had been acting in those districts for many years. Several coroners loudly complained on this subject, and considered they were most unfairly treated. If the hon. Gentleman would intimate that the coroners should be adequately protected, he would not trouble the House with the proviso which it was his intention to move to the second clause. But if the hon. Gentleman should not give such an intimation, he should be obliged to put the House to the inconvenience of moving such a proviso. The hon. Gentleman read a note from a coroner in Gloucestershire, to show the injurious effects of the clause upon the interests of the coroners. The note complained of the injustice of putting coroners, who had been at great expense in getting elected for large districts on account of the large emolument arising there from, on a level with coroners of small districts who had been at little or no expense or trouble in obtaining those districts. The hon. Gentleman proceeded to say, that some compensation ought to be made to such coroners. He was desirous that the House should not interfere with the present management of counties when the counties had been divided into districts for a long series of years, and if the hon. Gentleman should state that that were his opinion he, (Mr. Wakley) would not trouble the House with the proviso he had mentioned.

Mr. Pakington

assured the hon. Member he had no desire to act discourteously or harshly towards the coroners, and, seeing nothing objectionable in the hon. Member's proviso, he would not oppose it.

Proviso added to the clause, and clause as amended agreed to.

On clause 3 being read,

Mr. Barneby

said, that the clause proposed to make it incumbent on every co- roner to reside within the district for which he acted; but if a coroner resided in a town which had a right of holding quarter-sessions, he could not be, strictly speaking, residing within his district. Now, he thought that such a provision would press hardly upon some coroners, and therefore he wished to see some words introduced, giving to the justices the power of giving leave to the coroner to reside out of his district in some cases, as it may seem fit.

Mr. Pakington

would accede to the introduction of some such provision.

Mr. Wakley

objected to giving the justices such power. They were constantly boasting of the necessity of having the judges independent, and here they were proposing to make the coroner, who was a judge, dependent upon the magistrates. It would be impossible for him to do justice if he were placed in such a situation. Nothing could be more unfair than the manner in which coroners were elected; and he rejoiced that the hon. Member had brought the subject before the House. What he complained of was, that the bill left the justices to deal with the present coroners as they thought fit. He should, therefore, move, that the following proviso be added to it:— Provided also, that nothing in this act contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to any existing coroner of any county of which the duties have been discharged during.—number of years, unless the consent of the coroner has first been obtained in writing. He left a blank for the number of years, as he had no objection to 10, 15, 20, or even 30 years, if the House thought proper.

Mr. Pakington

did not think the hon. Member for Finsbury had any reason to complain of the powers given by this clause to the justices.

Mr. O'Connell

contended, that as many of the coroners had vested interests, it should not be left to the caprice of magistrates, by contracting the range of their duties, to curtail their emoluments, without granting some compensation.

Sir R. Peel

said, that certainly it was a fair principle to give compensation where existing interests were affected. He did not think that the question of compensation ought to stand in the way of the public good; on the contrary, where the public convenience required that vested interests should be interfered with, it was only just to grant compensation. The principle had been admitted last year, in the case of the coroners of the County Palatine of Chester, and although that was in a private bill, still the principle was a public one. It should be recollected that this clause gave to the justices an unlimited power to interfere with the ancient office of coroner, and that without appeal. He feared that this was likely to detract from the dignity of the office of coroner, but if the public good required it he should not object to it. He thought, however, that compensation ought to be awarded.

Mr. Wakley

assured the committee that the coroners had no intention whatever to urge claims for compensation. The object of his proviso was to secure the independence and integrity of their courts from the interference of the justices. He therefore hoped the hon. Gentleman would not give the committee the trouble of dividing against it.

Mr. Pakington

expressed his readiness to introduce a clause at another stage of the bill to give compensation to parties affected by the operation of the measure.

Sir R. Peel

thought a public officer had a perfect right to ask for compensation for losses suffered by an alteration in the state of the law, but he bad no right to ask for a power to decide whether or not a great public improvement should take place.

Mr. O'Connell

suggested, that as the committee were agreed upon the principle of the amendment, it would be better to leave it to the hon. Gentleman to introduce a compensation clause than to divide upon the question now.

Sir R. Peel

recommended that the clause should be so framed as to give power to the Privy Council, upon the representation of the magistrates, to decide upon the division of a county into districts, and that the Privy Council should have the power of awarding compensation.

Mr. Wakley

hoped that it would not be understood that he had said one word against the division of counties into districts under coroners; no one would give more support to such a measure. But what he complained of was that the magistrates should have power, without reference to the coroner, to make the alteration. Satisfied that if the course recommended by the hon. Baronet were followed, justice would be done, he would withdraw his amendment.

Amendment withdrawn.

On the 6th clause having been proposed as follows:— When any county shall have been divided into districts, every election of a coroner for any such district shall be held at some place within the district in which he shall be elected to serve the office of coroner, and every person so to be elected shall be chosen by a majority of such persons residing within such district, as shall at the time of the election be duly qualified to vote at the election of knights of the shire for the county, &c.

Colonel T. Wood moved to leave out, in line 6, the words "residing within such district," which, he said, would have the effect of disfranchising all the non-resident county electors.

Mr. Hume

opposed the amendment.

The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out Stand;—Ayes 61; Noes 40; Majority 31.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Lister, E. C.
Armstrong, A.	Maclean, D.
Barnard, E. G.	Marsland, H.
Barneby, J.	Maule, hon. F.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Morgan, C. M.
Blackett, C.	Morris, D.
Blake, M. J.	Muskett, G. A.
Bowes, J.	O'Connell, Dan.
Bramston, T. W.	O'Connell, J.
Brotherton, J.	Old, W.
Busfield, W.	Pryme, G.
Butler, hon. Colonel	Pryse, P.
Chalmers, P.	Rundle, J.
Clive, E. B.	Salwey, Colonel
Clive, hon. R. H.	Stanley, E.
Fielden, J.	Stansfield, W.R.C.
Greenaway, C.	Stewart, J.
Hamilton, C. J. B.	Stewart, J.
Handley, H.	Strickland, Sir G.
Harcourt, G. G.	Talbot, C. R. M.
Heathcoat, J.	Thornely, T.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Turner, W.
Hodges, T. L.	Walter, J.
Hoskins, K.	Warburton, H.
Houldsworth, T.	White, A.
Howard, P. H.	Wilbraham, G.
Howard, hon. C.W.G.	Wood, G. W.
Hume, J.	Worsley, Lord
Hutt, W.	Yates, J. A.
Ingham, R.	TELLERS.
Jervis, J.	Pakington, J.
Langdale, hon. C.	Wakley, T.

List of the NOES.
Ainsworth, P.	Bolling, W.
Antrobus, E.	Broadley, H.
Archdall, M.	Bruges, W.H.L.
Bell, M.	Chapman, A.
Bentinck, Lord G.	Chute, W. L. W.
Bethell, R.	Darby, G.

Dungannon, Viscount	Murray, A.
Egerton, W. T.	Packe, C. W.
Gaskell, J. M.	Plumptre, J. P.
Goddard, A.	Polhill, F.
Grimsditch, T.	Price, R.
Halford, H.	Redington, T. N.
Hinde, J. H.	Round, J.
Hodgson, F.	Ruahbrooke, Colonel
Hodgson, R.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Hope, G. W.	Somerville, Sir W.M.
Kemble, H.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Lowther, J. H.	Wodehouse, E.
Marsland, T.
Maunsell, T. P.	TELLERS.
Morgan, O.	Estcourt, T.
Muntz, G. F.	Wood, Colonel T.

Mr. Hume

, moved to add to the clause after the word "election," the words "have been rated for six months to the relief of the poor in any parish in such district."

Mr. Pakington

said, that this was an amendment to which it was quite impossible he could give his consent. The proposal, however, was not new, inasmuch as it had been made to him on bringing in the bill by the hon. Under-secretary for the Home Department. He (Mr. Pakington), thought, that so far from being an improvement, this addition to the clause would destroy the whole principle of the bill, the object of which was to simplify the mode of the election of coroner, to lessen the expenses of such election, and to put an end to the extensive frauds by personation and otherwise which were practised on those occasions. If the amendment were agreed to, it would amount to universal suffrage in those elections. He (Mr. Pakington) had no wish to narrow the franchise, and he had only adopted the county franchise for the sake of a criterion as to who should and who should not have a right to vote; and it was with that view that he had introduced as a constituency the constituencies of the boroughs in the particular districts. On the whole, the amendment was so objectionable that be must divide the committee against it.

Mr. F. Maule

supported the amendment, and denied that its adoption could lead to universal suffrage in the election of coroners. It would only give to the poorer classes a voice in the election of a public officer who of all others was most nearly connected with them.

Mr. J. Jervis

said, he was sorry to be obliged to oppose the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny. He (Mr. Jervis) was clearly of opinion that the choice of coroner should remain, as formerly, in the freeholders of the county.

Mr. Warburton

should vote for the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, because it was impossible to retain the present franchise without encouraging fraud and perjury.

Colonel C. Wood

was much surprised that hon. Members opposite should argue from the abuse of the franchise for its further extension. He congratulated the hon. Members on the accession of the Government in the person of the hon. Under-secretary of State to the principle of household franchise.

Mr. Wilbraham

opposed the amendment.

Mr. Hamilton

agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Cheater, and he should therefore oppose the amendment.

Mr. Brotherton

. supported the amendment.

Mr. Wakley

doubted, that the bill would secure a good constituency, though he believed it was well intended as a remedy for abuse. The existing evil, however, was of such enormous magnitude that, even if the amendment of the hon. Member for Kilkenny were lost, some other founded on the clause before the House would be adopted. Under these circumstances he suggested a compromise to the effect of extending the right of voting to boroughs not now returning Members to Parliament.

The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed by Mr. Hume be inserted:—Ayes 48; Noes 63; Majority 15.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Lambton, H.
Armstrong, A.	Langdale, hon. C.
Baines, E.	Lister, E. C.
Barnard, E. G.	Marsland, H.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Morris, D.
Blackett, C.	Morrison, J.
Bowes, J.	Muntz, G. F.
Brotherton, J.	O'Connell, Dan.
Busfield, W.	O'Connell, J.
Clive, E. B.	O'Ferrall, R. M.
Fielden, J.	Ord, W.
Heathcoat, J.	Pigot, rt. hon. D.
Hinde, J. H.	Rundle, J.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Rutherfurd, rt. hon. A.
Hodges, T. L.	Salwey, Colonel
Hodgson, R.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Howard, P. H.	Stewart, J.
Howard, hon. C.W.G.	Strickland, Sir G.
Humphery, J.	Thornely, T.
Hutt, W.	Turner, W.
Ingham, R.	Vivian, Major C.

Wakley, T.	Yates, J, A.
Warburton, H.	TELLERS.
White, A.	Hume, J.
Wilbraham, G.	Maule, hon. F.
Wilde, Sir T.

List of the NOES.
Ainsworth, P.	Hughes, W. B.
Antrobus, E.	Hurt, F.
Archdall, M.	Kemble, H.
Baldwin, C. B.	Lowther, J. H.
Barneby, J.	Lucas, E.
Bell, M.	Maclean, D.
Bethell, R.	Marsland, T.
Blair, J.	Master, T. W. C.
Bolling W.	Maunsell, T. P.
Bramston, T. W.	Mordaunt, Sir J.
Broadley, H.	Morgan, C. M.
Bruges, W. H. L.	Morgan, O.
Chapman, A.	Packe, C. W.
Chute, W. L. W.	Plumptre, J. P.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Polhill, F.
Darby, G.	Price, R.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Pryme, G.
Drummond, H. H.	Round, C. G.
Dungannon, Viscount	Round, J.
East, J. B.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Egerton, W. T.	Shirley, E. J.
Estcourt, T.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Follett, Sir W.	Sotheron, T. E.
Gaskell, J. M.	Stanley, E.
Godson, R.	Stewart, J.
Grimsditch, T.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Halford, H.	Welby, G. E.
Hamilton, C. J. B.	Wodehouse, E.
Handley, H.	Wood, Colonel T.
Harcourt, G. G.	Worsley, Lord
Hodgson, F.	TELLERS.
Hope, G. W.	Pakington, J.
Houldsworth, T.	Jervis, J.

Mr. J. Jervis moved to substitute the word "registered," for the word "qualified," the effect of which was to secure to the existing electors the right of voting, the old qualification being retained.

The Committee divided on the question that the word "qualified" stand part of the clause:—Ayes 78; Noes 30; Majority 48.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Drummond, H. H.
Antrobus, E.	East, J. B.
Baines, E.	Estcourt, T.
Baldwin, C. B.	Evans, W.
Berkely, hon. G.	Fielden, J.
Bethall, R.	Gisborne, T.
Blackett, C.	Handley, H.
Broadley, H.	Harcourt, G. G.
Brotherton, J.	Heathcoat, J.
Bruges, W. H. L.	Hinde, J. H.
Busfield, W.	Hobhouse, T. B.
Chute, W. L. W.	Hodges, T. L.
Clive, E. B.	Hodgson, F.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Hodgson, R.

Hope, G. W.	Pigot, rt. hon. D.
Howard, P. H.	Plumptre, J. P.
Howard, hon. C.W.G.	Price, R.
Hughes, W. B.	Round, J.
Hume, J.	Rushhrooke, Colonel
Humphery, J.	Rutherfurd, rt. hon. A.
Hutt, W.	Salwey, Colonel
Kemble, H.	Shirley, E. J.
Langdale, hon. C.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Lister, E. C.	Sotheron, T. E.
Lowther, J. H.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Lygon, hon. General	Stewart, J.
Mackenzie, W. F.	Strickland, Sir G.
Marsland, H.	Thornely, T.
Marsland, T.	Turner, W.
Maule, hon. F.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Moreton, hon. A. H.	Wakley, T.
Morgan, C. M. R.	Warburton, H.
Morgan, O.	White, A.
Morris D.	Wilbraham, G.
Morrison, J.	Wilde, Sir T.
Muntz, G. F.	Wodehouse, E.
Neeld, J.	Yates, J. A.
O'Connell, J.
O'Ferrall, R. M.	TELLERS.
Ord, W.	Jervis, J.
Packe, C. W.	Hamilton, C.

List of the NOES.
Bailey, J.	Ingham, R.
Bailey, J. jun.	Lambton, H.
Bell, M.	Maclean, D.
Blair, J.	Master, T. W. C.
Boiling, W.	Maunsell, T. P.
Bowes, J.	Neeld, J.
Bramston, T. W.	Polhill, F.
Chapman, A.	Pryme, G.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Round, C. G.
Egerton, W. T.	Thompson, Alderman
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Tollemache, F. J.
Godson, R.	Wood, Colonel T.
Grimsditch, T.	Young, Sir W.
Halford, H.
Henniker, Lord	TELLERS.
Houldsworth, T.	Pakington, J.
Hurt, F.	Barneby, J.

Mr. J. Jervis moved, to add the word "coroners" after the word "elections."

Mr. Wakley

objected to the amendment, the effect of which, he said, would be most disfranchising.

The Committee divided to add the word "coroners" after the word "elections:" Ayes 75; Noes 27; Majority 48.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Bruges, W. H. L.
Antrobus, E.	Busfield, W.
Baines, E.	Chute, W. L. W.
Baldwin, C. B.	Clive, E. B.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Codrington, C. W.
Bethell, R.	Douglas, Sir C. E.
Boldero, H. G.	Drummond, H. H.
Broadley, H.	East, J. B.
Brotherton, J.	Estcourt, T.

Evans, W.	Neeld, J.
Fielden, J.	O'Connell, Dan.
Gisborne, T.	Ord, W.
Harcourt, G. G.	Packe, C. W.
Hinde, J. H.	Parker, R. T.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Plumptre, J. P.
Hodges, T. L.	Polhill, F.
Hodgson, F.	Price, R.
Hodgson, R.	Round, J.
Hope, G. W.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Hoskins, K.	Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.
Howard, P. H.	Salwey, Colonel
Howard, hon. C.W.G.	Shirley, E. J.
Hughes, W. B.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Hume, F.	Sotheron, T. E.
Humphery, J.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Hurt, F.	Stewart, J.
Hutt, W.	Strickland, Sir G.
Kemble, H.	Thorneley, T.
Langdale, hon. C.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Lister, E. C.	Vivian, Major C.
Lockhart, A. M.	Warburton, H.
Lowther, J. H.	Wilbraham, G.
Lygon, hon. General	Wilde, Sir T.
Mackenzie, W. F.	Wodehouse, E.
Marsland, H.	Wood, Colonel T.
Marsland, T.
Morgan, C. M.	TELLERS.
Morris, D.	Jervis, J.
Muntz, G. F.	Hamilton, C.

List of the NOES.
Bailey, J.	Henniker, Lord
Bailey, J. jun.	Houldsworth, T.
Barneby, J.	Lambton, H.
Bell, M.	Maclean, D.
Blair, J.	Master, T. W. C.
Bolling, W.	Maunsell, T. P.
Bowes, J.	Neeld, J.
Bramston, T. W.	Pryme, G.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Round, C. G.
Cresswell, C.	Thompson, Alderman
Eaton, R. J.	Tollemache, F. J.
Egerton, W. T.	Young, Sir W.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	TELLERS.
Godson, R.	Pakington, J.
Halford, H:	Wakley, T.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Warburton

proposed an amendment, with a view of adding to the class of voters at present embraced by the bill, those who would have been included as the clause stood when proposed by the hon. Member for Droitwitch.

Mr. J. Jervis

opposed the amendment.

Mr. Aglionby

said, that he should vote for the amendment, because he did not like to disfranchise the old freeholders. He thought that it was an extremely good proposition to qualify by the registration.

Amendment withdrawn.

Mr. J. Jervis moved, that all the words after the words "coroners of counties" be struck out, which having been done,

On the question, that the clause as amended stand part of the bill,

Mr. T. Egerton

said, he should vote for the clause so amended.

Mr. Pakington

said, that if this clause were struck out he should not think it worth while to go on with the bill.

Mr. Estcourt

said, he should vote against the clause, as did Mr. Godson.

Mr. J. Jervis

supported it.

Mr. F. Maule

believed that residence in the district was absolutely necessary to curtail the expense of electing coroners. The office was interesting to those who inhabited the districts in which the coroner was to act, and therefore the inhabitants of the districts ought to vote. He trusted the Committee would maintain the vote to which they had already come.

Mr. Darby

was opposed to the clause.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 48; Majority 25.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Marsland, H.
Bailey, J.	Marsland, T.
Bailey, J. jun.	Master, T. W. C.
Baines, E.	Maule, hon. F.
Berkeley, hon. H.	Melgund, Lord Vise.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Mordaunt, Sir J.
Blackett, C.	Morris, D.
Bowes, J.	Morison, J.
Bramston, T. W.	Muntz, G. F.
Brotherton, J.	Neeld, J.
Busfield, W.	O'Connell, Dan.
Clive, E. B.	Ord, W.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Patten, J. W.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Pechell, Captain
East, J. B.	Price, R.
Evans, G.	Pryme, G.
Evans, W.	Round, C. G.
Feilden, W.	Rundle, J.
Gisborne, T.	Salwey, Colonel
Hamilton, C. J. B.	Shirley, E. J.
Harcourt, G. G.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Hinde, J. H.	Stewart, J.
Hindley, C.	Strickland, Sir G.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Style, Sir C.
Hodges, T. L.	Thompson, Alderman
Hoskins, K.	Thornely, T.
Howard, P. H.	Vivian, Major C.
Hume, J.	Waddington, H. S.
Humphrey, J.	Wakley, T.
Hutt, W.	Wallace, R.
Ingham, R.	Warburton, H.
Jervis, J.	Wilbraham. G.
Lambton, H.	Wilde, Sir T.
Langdale, hon. C.	Wodehouse, E.
Lennox, Lord G.	Wood, B.
Lister, E. C.	TELLERS.
Lowther, J. H.	Pakington, J. S.
Lucas, E.	Barneby, J.

List of the NOES.
Antrobus, E.	Hughes, W.B.
Baldwin, C. B.	Hurt, F.
Bell, M.	Kemble, H.
Bethell, R.	Lockhart, A. M.
Blair, J.	Lygon, hon. Gen.
Boldero, H. G.	Mackenzie, W. F.
Boiling, W.	Maunsell, T. P.
Broadley, H.	Neeld, J.
Bruges, W. H. L.	Packe, C. W.
Burrell, Sir C.	Parker, R. T.
Chute, W. L. W.	Plumptre, J. P.
Cresswell, C.	Polhill, F.
Darby, G.	Round, J.
Drummond, H. H.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Dungannon, Viscount	Sibthorp, Colonel
Eaton, R. J.	Sotheron, T. E.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Spry, Sir S. T.
Godson, R.	Stewart, J.
Grimsditch, T.	Tollemache, F. J.
Halford, H.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Henniker, Lord	Wood, Colonel T.
Hodgson, F.	Young, Sir W.
Hodgson, R.
Hope, hon. C.	TELLERS.
Hope, G. W.	Egerton, W. T.
Houldsworth, T.	Estcourt, T.

Clause as amended agreed to. It stood as follows,— When any county, riding, or division, shall have been divided into districts, every election of a coroner for any such district, shall be held at some place within the district in which he shall be elected to serve the office of Coroner; and every person so elected shall be chosen by a majority of such persons residing within such district, as shall at the time of such election be duly qualified to vote at the elections of Coroners for counties.

Upon clause 14,

Mr. T. Egerton

proposed as an amendment, that coroners should be empowered to compel the attendance of witnesses by fine and imprisonment.

Mr. Pakington

suggested that the object would be sufficiently attained by raising the fine from 40s. to 5l.

Mr. Wakley

conceived that the powers already possessed by coroners were amply sufficient for this purpose; but, as some lawyers were of a different opinion, he was glad that the hon. Member for Droitwich had introduced this amendment.

The Solicitor-General

thought, that the power of enforcing the attendance of witnesses at an early stage of the inquiry ought to be given. As he was now satisfied that the coroner had sufficient power to compel the attendance of witnesses, he therefore suggested that the clause should be postponed. He thought that the fine that was proposed to be inflicted on witnesses would, in cases of murder, have no effect at all.

Mr. Wakley

had held 2,000 coroners' inquests, and had experienced no difficulty in obtaining the attendance of important witnesses. If a witness refused to attend on a warrant being issued, and committed a contempt of court, he (Mr. Wakley) would have no hesitation in committing him.

Mr. Jervis

would like to see the hon. Member for Finsbury try the adoption of that course. If he did so with reference to him (Mr. Jervis) he would bring an action against him.

Mr. Wakley

hoped the hon. Member would put the question to the test, as it would save the public much expense, and settle an important point. If he committed a contempt of the coroners' court, he (Mr. Wakley) would commit the hon. Member immediately.

Mr. Grimsditch

proposed to strike out of the clause all that related to witnesses.

The Solicitor-General moved that the further consideration of the clause be postponed.

Agreed to.

Clause postponed.

On the question that clause 16 stand part of the bill,

Lord G. Somerset

said, that he proposed that the words "being a barrister or attorney" be struck out of the clause.

Mr. Pakington

said, that he had introduced the clause reluctantly into the bill; but he did so because it was much pressed upon him by those coroners who had communicated with him on the subject.

Mr. Maclean

said, that although he thought coroners should have the power of appointing deputies, be could not agree that the consent of the justices would be either convenient or necessary. He, therefore, meant to propose an amendment in the clause to dispense with such consent.

Mr. Godson

said, it was a principle of the law of this country, that no judicial officer should appoint a deputy, and he did not think coroners should have a power which a judge did not possess. He thought the clause should be withdrawn.

Mr. Wakley

said, that he meant to support the amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.

Mr. Maclean

said, that he had not put his amendment.

Mr. Wakley

then expressed a hope that the noble Lord (Lord G. Somerset) would withdraw his amendment, in order that the House might decide on the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.

Lord G. Somerset

did not think his amendment at all interfered with that of the hon. and learned Gentleman.

The Solicitor-General

agreed, that it would be more convenient to dispose of the amendment of the noble Lord, and afterwards consider that of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford.

Mr. Wakley

said, that if the clause were to pass in its present shape, it would be impossible for the county coroners to exercise their duties, and all they wanted was to be placed in as good a situation as the coroners for boroughs, and particular franchises or liberties.

Lord G. Somerset

consented to withdraw his amendment.

Mr. Pakington

proposed to withdraw the clause, in order that the proposition of the hon. and learned Member for Oxford might be discussed on the bringing up of the report.

Viscount Dungannon

opposed the withdrawal of the clause, and said, that if coroners were to be allowed to appoint their own deputies, without any restriction, the result would be, that unqualified persons would be found presiding at inquests.

Mr. F. Maule

thought, that instead of getting rid of the clause, they should try to amend it. In cases of illness, or unavoidable absence, coroners should have the power of appointing deputies, but, then, these deputies should be either barristers or attorneys.

Lord G. Somerset

complained, that the hon. Gentleman bad not treated him fairly, and he therefore should press the proposition of his hon. Friend for withdrawing the clause.

Mr. F. Maule

spoke in vindication of the course which he had pursued, and said, that he intended to have spoken on the amendment of the noble Lord, had he not withdrawn it.

The Solicitor-General

said, that it was also his intention to have addressed the committee on the amendment of the noble Lord, but that it was withdrawn before he had an opportunity of doing so.

Lord G. Somerset

remarked, that all this was most extraordinary to him; but he would now give notice, that on the bringing up of the report he should renew his amendment.

On the question that the clause as amended at follows stand part of the bill:— That in case of illness, or unavoidable absence, the coroner shall be empowered and required, by writing under his hand and seal, to appoint a fit person, being a barrister or an attorney, to act for him as deputy coroner during his illness and unavoidable absence, but no longer,

The Committee divided: Ayes 58; Noes 61: Majority 3.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	O'Brien, C.
Bailey, J. jun.	Palmer, G.
Bell, M.	Pechell, Captain
Berkeley, hon. G.	Plumptre, J. P.
Bethell, R.	Polhill, F.
Bowes, J.	Price, Sir R.
Brotherton, J.	Pryme, G.
Busfeild, W.	Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.
Darby, G.	Salwey, Colonel
Evans, W.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Fielden, J.	Stewart, J.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Stuart, Lord J.
Gisborne, T.	Stock, Mr. Sergeant
Hamilton, C. J. B.	Strickland, Sir G.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Style, Sir C.
Hodges, T. L.	Teignmouth, Lord
Horsman, E.	Thornely, T.
Hoskins, K.	Tuffnell, H.
Howard, hn. C. W. G.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Hutt, W.	Wakley. T.
Ingham, R.	Watker, R.
Langdale, hon. C.	Warburton, H.
Lennox, Lord G.	Wilbrabani, hon. B.
Lowther, J. H.	Williams, W.
Lygon, hon. General	Wodehouse, E.
Maclean, D.	Wood, G. W.
Marsland, H.	Wood, B.
Melgund, Viscount
Morris, D.	TELLERS.
Muntz, G. F.	Maule, F.
Norreys, Lord	Wilde, Sir T.

List of the NOES.
Antrobus, E.	Estcourt, T.
Bagge, W.	Farnham, E. B.
Baines, E.	Filmer, Sir E.
Baldwin, C. B.	Godson, R.
Barnsby, J.	Grimston, Viscount
Boldero, H. G.	Halford, H.
Bramston, T. W.	Harcourt, G. G.
Broadley, H.	Heathcote, G. J.
Bruges, W. H. L.	Henniker, Lord
Burrell, Sir C.	Hinde, J. H.
Clive, E. B.	Hodgson, R.
Clive, hon. R. H.	Hope, hon. C.
Cresswell, C.	Hope, G. W.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Howard, P. H.
Drummond, H. H.	Hughes, W. B.
Dongannon, Viscount	Hurt, F.
Eaton, R. J.	Jervis, J.
Egerton, W. T.	Kelly, F.

Lambton, H.	Rundle, J.
Marsland, T.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Miles, P. W. S.	Sheppard, T.
Mordaunt, Sir J.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Morgan, C. M.	Talbot, C. R. M.
Morgan, O.	Thompson, Mr. Ald.
Neeld, J.	Tollemache, F. J.
O'Connell, D.	Vivian, J. E.
O'Connell, J.	Waddington, H. S.
Packe, C. W.	Wallace, R.
Parker, R. T.	Worsley, Lord
Pigot, right hon. D.	TELLERS.
Round, C. G.	Pakington, J.
Round, J.	Somerset, Lord G.

Clause rejected.

On the 21st clause, Whereas by Act 25 Geo. 2, it was enacted, that for every mile which any coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the sum of 9d. over and above the sum of 20s. thereby directed to be paid to him, should be paid to such coroner; and whereas the said sum of 9d. per mile being inadequate to defray such travelling expenses, it is expedient that the same shall be increased; Be it enacted, that for every mile which any coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the farther sum of 3rf. per mile, making, together with the said first mentioned sum, the full sum of 1s. per mile in the whole, shall be paid, &c.

Mr. C. Hamilton

thought, that the coroners' mileage should be 1s. 6d. instead of 9d., he therefore moved to substitute 9d. for 3d.

Sir G. Strickland

seconded the amendment. He mm quite sure the sum proposed did not, at least in Yorkshire, cover the coroners' expenses.

Mr. F. Maule

suggested, that if it ware to be 1s. 6d., it should only be for every mile beyond two miles from the coroner s residence.

Mr. Wakley

said, that the present remuneration of coroners was so low, that in many cases they were out of pocket. This state of things was highly improper, as it might have a tendency to make coroners evade their duties, on which the safety of the public in some degree depended.

The Committee divided on the question that the words "three-pence" stand part of the clause: Ayes 35; Noes 68: Majority 33.

List of the AYES.
Antrobus, E.	Broadley, H.
Baines, E.	Brotherton, J.
Barneby, J.	Bruges, W. H. L.
Bethell, R.	Busfeild, W.

Clive, hon. R. H.	O'Brien, C.
Drummond, H. H.	Pakington, J. S.
Estcourt, T.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Evans, W.	Somerset, Lord G.
Fielden, J.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Filmer, Sir E.	Stuart, Lord J.
Gisborne, T.	Talbot, C. R. M.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Teignmouth, Lord.
Hurt, F.	Thornely, T.
Inglis, Sir R. H.	Walker, R.
Langdale, hon. C.	Wallace, R.
Marsland, H.	Williams, W.
Maule, hon. F.	TELLERS.
Melgund, Viscount	Buller, E.
Neeld, J.	Jervis, J.

List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Lowther, J. H.
Bagge, W.	Lygon, hon. General
Bailey, J. jun.	Maclean, D.
Baldwin, C. B.	Maunsell, T. P.
Bell, M.	Miles, P. W. S.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Mordaunt, Sir J.
Boldero, H. G.	Morgan, C. M.
Bowes, J.	Morgan, O.
Bramston, T. W.	Morris, D.
Burrell, Sir C.	Neeld, J.
Clive, E. B.	Norreys, Lord
Darby, G.	Packe, C. W.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Palmer, G.
Dungannon, Viscount	Parker, R. T.
Eaton, R. J.	Pigot, right hon. D.
Egerton, W. T.	Polhill, F.
Ellice, E.	Pryme, G.
Farnham, E. B.	Round, C. G.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Round, J.
Godson, R.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Granby, Marquess of	Salwey, Colonel
Grimston, Viscount	Sheppard, T.
Halford, H.	Stewart, J.
Harcourt, G. G.	Tollemache, F. J.
Heathcote, G. J.	Tuffnell, H.
Henniker, Lord	Vere, Sir C. B.
Hinde, J. H.	Warburton, H.
Hodges, T. L.	Wilbraham, G.
Hodgson, R.	Wodehouse, E.
Hope, G. W.	Wood, G. W.
Hoskins, K.	Wood, B.
Howard, hn. C.W.G.	Worsley, Lord
Hughes, W. B.
Hutt, W.	TELLERS.
Ingham, R.	Hamilton, C.
Kelly, F.	Strickland, Sir G.

It was then moved, that the blank be filled up with "six-pence."

The Committee again divided on the question that the blank be filled up with sixpence:—Ayes 43; Noes 58:—Majority 15.

List of the AYES.
Antrobus, E.	Broadley, H.
Baines, E.	Brotherton, J.
Barneby, J.	Bruges, W. H. L.
Bethell, R.	Buller, E.
Bowes, J.	Burrell, Sir C.

Busfeild, W.	Pakington, J. S.
Clive, hn. R. H.	Pigot, right hon. D.
Darby, G.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Drummond, H. H.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Estcourt, T.	Stuart, Lord J.
Evans, W.	Talbot, C. R. M.
Fielden, J.	Teignmouth, Lord
Filmer, Sir E.	Thornely, T.
Gisborne, T.	Tufnell, H.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Waddington, H. S.
Hope, G. W.	Walker, R.
Hurt, F.	Wallace, R.
Inglis, Sir R. H.	Warburton, H.
Langdale, hon. C.	Williams, W.
Marsland, H.	Wood, G. W.
Maule, hon. Fox	TELLERS.
Melgund, Viscount	Jervis, J.
Neeld, J.	Egerton, W. T.

List of the NOES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Lowther, J. H.
Bagge, W.	Lygon, hon. General
Bailey, J. jun.	Maclean, D.
Baldwin, C. B.	Maunsell, T. P.
Bell, M.	Miles, P. W. S.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Mordaunt, Sir J.
Boldero, H. G.	Morgan, C. M.
Bramston, T. W.	Morgan, O.
Clive, E. B.	Morris, D.
Douglas, Sir C. E.	Neeld, J.
Dungannon, Viscount	Norreys, Lord
Eaton, R. J.	Packe, C. W.
Ellice, E.	Parker, R. T.
Farnham, E. B.	Polhill, F.
Gaskell, J. Milnes	Pryme, G.
Godson, R.	Round, C. G.
Granby, Marquess of	Round, J.
Grimston, Viscount	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Halford, H.	Salwey, Colonel
Harcourt, G. G.	Sheppard, T.
Henniker, Lord	Stewart, J.
Hodges, T. L.	Tollemache, F. J.
Hodgson, F.	Vere, Sir C. B.
Hodgson, R.	Wilbraham, G.
Holmes, W.	Wodehouse, E.
Hoskins, K.	Wood, B.
Howard, hn. C. W. G.	Worsley, Lord
Hughes, W. B.
Hutt, W.	TELLERS.
Ingham, R.	Hamilton, C.
Kelly, Fitzroy	Strickland, Sir G.

Mr. Fox Maule

proposed, that words be added for the purpose of restricting the charge of mileage to cases in which inquests were held beyond two miles from the coroner's usual residence.

Mr. Wakley

opposed the proviso, as likely to operate most unjustly in densely populated districts.

Mr. Pakington

also opposed the amendment. A coroner might have many inquests to attend in one day within that range, and he would be obliged to resort to the usual modes of conveyance, without the chance of reimbursement.

Mr. Fox Maule

ultimately agreed to insert the word "additional," before "charge of mileage," and the proviso was then added.

the question that the clause as amended, thus— That for every mile which any Coroner shall be compelled to travel from his usual place of abode to take any inquisition, the further sum of ninepence per mile (making, together with the sum of ninepence first mentioned, the full sum of one shilling and sixpence per mile one way in the whole) over and above the fees, &c, be paid to him, &c. stand part of the bill,

Mr. Barneby

said, he could not agree to the clause, and he would divide the committee against it.

The committee divided:—Ayes 43; Noes 23: Majority 20.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A.	Maule, hon. Fox
Bailey,J. (jun.)	Morgan, C. M.
Baines, E.	Morgan, O.
Bell, M.	Morris, D.
Berkeley, hon. G.	Norreys, Lord
Boldero, H. G.	Parker, R. T.
Bowes, J.	Pigot, right hon. D.
Dungannon, Viscount	Pryme, G.
Ellice, E.	Round, J.
Fielden, J.	Rushbrooke, Colonel
Gaskell, J. M.	Salwey, Colonel
Godson, R.	Stewart, J.
Grimston, Viscount	Teignmouth, Lord
Harcourt, G.	Tollemache, F. J.
Hinde, J. H.	Tufnell, H.
Hodges, T. L.	Wilbraham, G.
Hodgson, F.	Wodehouse, E.
Hodgson, R.	Wood, G. W.
Holmes, W.	Wood, B.
Hope, G. W.	Worsley, Lord
Howard, hn. C. W. G.	TELLERS.
Hughes, W. B.	Strickland, Sir G.
Lowther, J. H.	Douglas, Sir C.

List of the NOES.
Antrobus, E.	Langdale, hon. C.
Brotherton, J.	Marsland, H.
Busfield, W.	Melgund, Viscount
Darby, G.	Neeld, J.
Drummond, H.	Pakington, J. S.
Estcourt, T.	Sibthorp, Colonel
Evans, W.	Stansfield, W. R. C.
Filmer, Sir E.	Walker, R.
Gisborne, T.	Wallace, R.
Hobhouse, T. B.	Warburton, H.
Hurt, F.	TELLERS.
Inglis, Sir R. H.	Barneby, J.
Jervis, J.	Buller, E.

The Chairman reported progress, committee to sit again.

House resumed.—Adjourned.