SUPPLY—REPORT. (Hansard, 15 March 1841)

§ Captain Boldero

said, that pursuant, to his notice, he wished to draw the attention 283 of the Master-general of the Ordnance to the expense incurred by Great Britain in furnishing arms, &c. to the Grand Sultan. He objected to the excess of the estimate for the ensuing year for ordnance stores over that of last year. The estimate for the ensuing was 328,000l., whilst the expense last year had been only 207,000l., so that there was an excess of 121,000l. on that one vote alone. Now, in 1834, the estimate was only 55,000l., in 1815, it was 65,000l.; in 1836, 75,000l.; so that there was a gradual and progressive increase of 10,000l. in each of these three years. But the vote of this year, exclusive of civil expenses, of ordnance stores—gunpowder, arms, and amunition, was 24,000l. Taking the average of the three years from 1834 to 1836, the vote was 65,000l. The House was quite ignorant of the causes of this large increase, and he thought it ought to be informed. He would, no doubt, be told that the expense of the expedition to Syria was a principal cause of the great increase; but he would ask how much of that expenditure was the Sultan to pay? There were a large number of muskets supplied to him, and it was to be supposed that ammunition also was supplied, for arms would be of no use without ammunition. The Sultan ought in justice to pay the whole of the expense which this country had been put to with reference to his affairs. If it were asked why that expenditure on the coast of Syria had been incurred, would not the House be informed that it was to support the integrity of the Ottoman empire; and we were, in this country, to bear all the expense. If the Sultan had been told, when we were about to interfere, that we should require him to bear the expenses which should be incurred on his account, there could be no doubt he would have most willingly assented to such a proposition; but now it appeared that this country was to bear all the expense of operations which were avowedly proceeded with for the purpose of supporting the balance of power in Europe. Why, he asked, should England be obliged to bear nearly all the expense? We had been successful at Acre; the Skill and courage of the British forces employed had conquered; but see what a risk had been encountered. If the result had been different no one could tell what consequences might have ensued. It might be thought that objecting to this country bearing nearly all the expense would partake too much of the character of what Buonaparte had 284 called a nation of shopkeepers, but Buonaparte had not been found to act in that manner; he did not oblige France to pay for wars entered into on the part of others. He could not conceive why the Sultan should not defray the expenses of operations which were carried on for his interest. The House ought, at least, to have definite information as to the amount which the Grand Sultan was to pay out of the enormous expense to which this country had been subjected. We had sent to the Mediterranean, he believed, the largest fleet which had ever been in that sea before; a fleet which, exclusive of steamships, carried 1,850 pieces of cannon, of all sizes; and that number of guns would require, at a fair average, 13,875 men: in fact, this country had been at an expense of between 2,000l. and 3,000l. per day. In Spain we had also interfered, with nearly a similar result; but Spain had acknowledged our claim upon her to the extent of half a million, and, under those circumstances, it would be desirable to know how much Turkey, the richer power, was to contribute. It was most essential to know how much the Sultan was to contribute towards defraying the expenses which had been incurred to support that Power, and he should feel it necessary to move for a copy of all the correspondence between her Majesty's Government and the Turkish authorities upon the subject, showing the expense which Turkey was to bear out of the aggregate expenditure which had been incurred by this country.

Sir H. Vivian

only rose to answer the question of the hon. Gentleman with respect to the department over which he presided. It was true that the expense of the ordnance department had risen within the last four years, but he had explained the reasons at length the other night. For instance, on the estimate for one article, namely small arms, the increase was 130,000l., owing to the change of percussion for flint locks. The new armament for the army and navy had been determined on, and that had increased the expense. With respect to the supplies to the Sultan, the quantity of arms given was 24,000 stand, with proportionate ammunition, and the whole had been positively agreed to be paid for by the Grand Sultan. He did not know of any commissariat supplies, certainly there were none for the ordnance department. A quantity of entrenching tools, sufficient for the sappers and miners who had sailed from Gibraltar, had been sup- 285 plied, but the cost was not more than a few hundred pounds. He could not go into a discussion of the policy of the operations in the East, but if the hon. Gentleman chose to bring the question regularly forward, he would find hon. Gentlemen who could answer him. In answer to the him. Gentleman's question, he could only say, that his only claim upon the Sultan was for 24,000 stand of arms and proportionate ammunition.