HC Deb 12 March 1841 vol 57 cc144-7
Lord Francis Egerton

I wish to put a question to the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs. It has reference to a document received subsequently to the last advices from Egypt, which has appeared in the ordinary channels of information. It is an extract from a hatti scheriff issued by the Sultan, conveying to Mehemet Ali and his descendants the pachalic of Egypt. Perhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to inform the House whether the version of the document which has been published be correct; and if so, whether it have received the sanction of her Majesty's Government, and of the three other Powers, and whether it is proposed to adhere to the provisions of it.

Viscount Palmerston

I have received an official copy from the Turkish ambassador of the firman sent to Mehemet Ali, conferring upon him the government of Egypt in hereditary succession, that is to say, upon him and his descendants, on certain conditions. I have not compared it with the document which has appeared in the public journals, and I am therefore not able to say whether the latter is a correct version, but I dare say it is—indeed I have no doubt of it. This instrument has been issued by the Sultan on his own authority, and it was only yesterday communicated to her Majesty's Government. Until some question shall arise thereupon on which the four Powers may be consulted, I apprehend it is a matter between the Sultan and his subject Mehemet Ali.

Sir Robert Peel

This is certainly a subject of great importance, and out of which serious questions may arise. It was understood that an engagement was entered into with Mehemet Ali, that the hereditary pachalic of Egypt should be conferred upon him and his family. By the document lately received, the Porto has reserved to itself the power of determining which of the sons of the Pacha shall succeed him. I beg to ask, whether this new engagement is conformable with that formerly entered into, and whether it is a measure to which the four Powers are parties?

Viscount Palmerston

As the questions are put to me I answer them, and the right hon. Baronet must not complain if I do not reply to questions not distinctly propounded. I now understand him to ask whether the four Powers do or do not approve of that particular condition of the firman which reserves to the Sultan the right of selecting one or other of the descendants of Mehemet Ali, who is to succeed him in the pachalic? I am sure the right hon. Baronet will see that it is impossible for me to say what the four Powers may or may not do on that point. We understand by a private, and not an official, account from Alexandria, that the Turkish commissioner who carried the firman to Egypt, did, on the 23d or 24th of February, transmit a representation on the point to Constantinople. What the Sultan may determine—whether on his own authority he will modify the provisions of the firman, or whether before he modifies them he will ask advice of the allies it is impossible for me to say beforehand. The intention of the four Powers in advising the Sultan undoubtedly was, that he should grant the bonâ fide hereditary succession to the descendants of Mehemet Ali, in as nearly a direct line as the nature of things and the interests of both parties would admit. It was never intended, however, to derogate so far from the rights of the Sultan as to create in Egypt a separate and independent sovereignty; but that the pachalic should be guaranteed bonâ fide to Mehemet Ali and his descendants.

An Hon. Member

on the opposition benches was understood to ask whether the firman alluded to, had received the sanction of the British Government?

Viscount Palmerston

The Porte, as I observed, has issued this firman on its own authority; what the precise communications were between the Porte and the representatives of the four Powers at Constantinople, I really cannot with accuracy State.

Lord Sandon

Am I to understand the noble Viscount to say, that he has no knowledge whether the hatti scheriff was communicated to the British ambassador before it was sent to Alexandria?

Viscount Palmerston

I mean to say, that the representatives of the four Powers at Constantinople, have been constantly in communication with the Porte regarding every step in these negotiations. If I am asked whether the hatti scheriff in the shape in which it was issued, was communicated to the British ambassador before it was so issued, my answer is, that I cannot tell.

An Hon. Member

on the opposition benches: Am I to understand that the noble Viscount has received no despatches from the British ambassador on the subject?

Viscount Palmerston

No despatches containing a copy of the hatti scheriff.

Mr. Ewart

The firman does not, if I am correctly informed, adhere to lineal descent. May I ask the noble Lord if he knows what is the intention of the Porte on the question?

Viscount Palmerston

had not distinctly heard the question of his hon. Friend.

Mr. Ewart

It was understood formally that the pachalic of Egypt was to descend by hereditary succession, according to usage, and without being subject to the arbitrary nomination of the Sultan. Is the noble Lord aware what advice was given by the four Powers upon that point?

Viscount Palmerston

The advice given by the four Powers did not go into any minute details, but it was, that the Sultan should grant the hereditary succession to the pachalic in a direct line; each succeeding Pacha was to receive his investiture from the Sultan, and the pachalic was not therefore to descend as an independent sovereignty.

Lord Sandon

Do I understand that the discretion the Sultan now appears to reserve to himself, was made known to the British ambassador before the hatti scheriff was issued? If it were made known, then, I ask if it is remarked upon in the despatches or other communications to the noble Lord. In short, was it made the subject of remonstrance by the ambassador of Great Britain?

Viscount Palmerston

I am not aware that there was any remonstrance on the subject. But I really must put it to the House whether this is a fit course of proceeding. I am called upon to give explanations before any official communications have been made, and while discussions are still pending. It is calling Upon a British Minister to speak to much more than he is able to answer for. If I am to give my opinion, it can only be an opinion upon circumstances, not yet communicated by any of the representatives of the four Powers. I should certainly say, that my understanding of the hatti scheriff is, that it was intended to reserve to the Sultan the sovereign right which must belong to him—to confer the government of Egypt, but not to evade the bonâ fide execution of the previous arrangement, or to set aside those successors who would be naturally looked upon as the descendants of Mehemet Ali.

Subject dropped.