HC Deb 27 January 1841 vol 56 cc122-5

On the Order for regulating the proceedings of the House,

Mr. Brotherton

objected to the introduction of any new business after twelve o'clock. This proposition appeared to him so reasonable, that he could not believe it would be opposed. Whatever might be the feeling of that House with respect to limiting the duration of their proceedings, he was quite convinced that the feeling of the country did not approve of their late proceedings. They often boasted of the wisdom of their ancestors. Their ancestors wisely legislated in the day-time. All the Legislatures of Europe, and of the United States, did the same. It was objected by some honourable Members, that the adoption of his rule would lengthen the Session; but he was of opinion, that the principal effect of it would be the shortening of some of the speeches. It seemed to him that the restriction which he proposed as to the hours for legislat on would greatly facilitate the progress of public business. There was another point of view in which this question ought to be considered. The public had a right to know what was done in that House; but under the present system it was impossible they could obtain that knowledge. At midnight the reporters were exhausted, and experience proved thot they could not pay attention to matters which occurred after that hour. The public remained uniformed upon topics of great importance if they were discussed after twelve o'clock. In Ms opinion it would be better to adjourn early; but, failing that, he hoped the House would agree to his proposition, which, indeed, was so reasonable, that it ought to obtain general support. The hon. Member concluded by moving, "That no new business which shall be objected to by five Members be brought on after twelve o'clock at night."

Mr. Ewart

seconded the motion. He thought that late sittings pressed with peculiar severity upon those hon. Members who attended to their duties in the day time upon committees. It was alleged, that if the House adopted the proposition of the hon. Member for Salford, it would soon be found necessary to meet at an earlier hour, which would be very inconvenient to lawyers and merchants, who were Members of that House; but he could not admit, that the convenience of those Gentlemen ought to be put in competition with the public interests. If the House of Commons were to rise at an earlier hour, it would very soon produce aw effect on the customs of society; for it could not be doubted that the late hours which distinguished English society from that of every other country were the result of the protracted sittings of Parliament. The practice also produced a bad effect in the public offices, for there business was rarely transacted until one o'clock in the day. It would be better on every account to sit at one o'clock in the day, as in the time of Sir R. Walpole. Would it not strike a foreigner with astonishment to witness the dormant legislation which was transacted in that House at a late hour? On one bench a Secretary to the Treasury might be seen extended at full length; on another a Secretary to the Admiralty alike recumbent; on another a non-effective army official; and on another a subdued President of the Board of Control. Last Session, when a question was addressed to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, it was found that he was fast asleep. These were unseemly incidents, which could not occur under a different system.

Mr. Briscoe

supported the motion. He referred to the day legislation of France and America, and said, it would better become the Members of the House of Commons to follow that example than to waste their time and constitutions in idle declamations and contentions.

Lord John Russell

said, that this question had been several times discussed, and he had never been able to perceive that, by the adoption of the rule which the hon. Member for Salford proposed, the House would be enabled either to do more business, or to do it more efficiently; on the contrary, he believed that the establishment of the rule would cause business to be postponed day after day, which at present was transacted conveniently and well. The hon. Member for Wigan seemed to think that the assistance of lawyers and merchants and others might be of no advantage; but, for his part, he doubted very much whether the debates would be shortened, or the business transacted as efficiently, if lawyers took no part in the discussions on legal points, merchants in those connected with trade, and official Members in those relating to official details. If such discussions were carried on in the absence of the classes of Members to whom he had referred, the House collectively would lack much of the information which it was essential it should possess. He did not wish to underrate the eloquence or talent for debate displayed by the members of the American Congress or the French Chambers, but there really could be no comparison between the amount of business done in Congress (which, alter all, was not the Legislature of the country),or in the French Chambers, and that transacted in the House of Commons.

Mr. O'Connell

said, that there was a great difference between getting through business and doing it. He believed, that the House of Commons got through more business than the French Chambers, but he doubted whether they did as much. A number of Acts of Parliament were passed every year which never received proper consideration. The objection which the noble Lord had taken on behalf of the lawyers and merchants would apply only to those who resided in London; for by others the inconvenience, if any, was already endured. But in any case the public interests ought not to be sacrificed to the convenience of any man. It was notorious that at present five Members might, by acting in concert, prevent any business from being proceeded with; and the adoption of the hon. Member for Salford's resolution would only have the effect of relieving Members from the odium of resorting to such a course. He would support the motion in the hope that it might have the effect of compelling the House to return to common-sense hours of doing business. As a proof of the bad effect of protracted sittings on the health of Members, he might mention that the late Speaker informed him that the last six weeks of a Session in which the House sat late, were more prejudicial than all the previous part of the Session.

Mr. Hume

approved of the motion, and suggested that the House should adopt a rule to prevent the debate being adjourned for more than a single night beyond that in which it commenced. It must have occurred to every one who had watched the discussions in that House, that, after the second night of debate, no new matter was ever introduced. If his suggestion were acted upon, it would cause Members, who now postponed their speeches to a late hour, to speak early in the evening.

The House divided; Ayes 31; Noes 130:—Majority 99.

List of the AYES.
Aglionby, H. A. Palmer, G.
Baines, E. Plumptre, J. P.
Blake, M. Pryme, G.
Brakemore, R. Salwey, Colonel
Briscoe, J. I. Staunton, Sir G. T.
Corbally, M. E. Strickland, Sir G.
Dashwood, G. H. Style, Sir C.
Hector, C. J. Turner, W.
Hume, J. Wakley, T.
Jackson, Mr. Sergeant Walker, R.
James, W. White, A.
Morris, D. Wilbraham, G.
O'Brien, W. S. Williams, W.
O'Connell, D. Yates, J. A.
O'Connell, J. TELLERS.
O'Connell, M. J. Brotherton, J.
O'Conor, Don Ewart, W.
List of the NOES.
Ainsworth, P. Hoskins, K.
Baring, rt. hn. F. T. Howard, hn. E. G. G.
Baring, H. B. Howick, Viscount
Barnard, E. G. Hughes, W. B.
Berkeley, hon. C. Hurt, F.
Bewes, T. Inglis, Sir R. H.
Blackburne, I. Irton, S.
Blake, W. J. Irving, J.
Botfield, B. Kemble, H.
Bowes, J. Knatchbull, right hon. Sir E.
Broadley, H.
Broadwood, H. Knightley, Sir C.
Brownrigg, S. Labouchere, rt. hn. H.
Bruges, W. H. L. Lascelles, hon. W. S.
Buck, L. W. Lefroy, right hon. T.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Lincoln, Earl of
Burroughes, H. N. Lushington, C.
Busfeild, W. Mackinnon, W. A.
Carew, hon. R. S. Macnamara, Major
Clay, W. Mahon, Viscount
Clements, H. J. Melgund, Viscount
Clive, E. B. Milnes, R. M.
Clive, hon. R. H. Monypenny, T. G.
Cochrane, Sir T. J. Muntz, G. F.
Compton, H. C. Ord, W.
Courtney, P. Packe, C. W.
Cowper, hon. W. F. Palmerston, Viscount
Dalrymple, Sir A. Parker, J.
D'Eyncourt, rt. hon. C. T. Parker, M.
Pattison, J.
D'Israeli, B. Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.
Divett, E. Perceval, Colonel
Duncan, Viscount Philips, M.
Duncombe, T. Planta, rt. hon. J.
Easthope, J. Pollock, Sir F.
Eliot, Lord Praed, W.T.
Elliot, hon. J. E. Pringle, A.
Estcourt, T. Redington, T. N.
Evans, W. Richards, R.
Fielden, W. Round, J.
Fitzroy, hon. H. Russell, Lord J.
Fort, J. Scarlett, hon. J. Y.
Fremantle, Sir T. Seale, Sir J. H.
Freshfield, J. W. Seymour, Lord
Gaskell, J. Milnes Shaw, right hon. F.
Gisborne, T. Shelburne, Earl of
Gordon, R. Sheppard, T.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H Somerset, Lord G.
Graham, rt. hn. Sir J. Sotheron, T. E.
Greene, T. Stanley, Lord
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Stanley, hon. W. O.
Grimsditch, T. Stansfield, W. R. C.
Hastie, A. Stewart, J.
Hawes, B. Stuart, W. V.
Hawkes, T. Strutt, E.
Heneage, G. W. Talfourd, Mr. Serg.
Henniker, Lord Tancred, H. W.
Herbert, hon. S. Thornely, T.
Herries, rt. hn. J. C. Trotter, J.
Hinde, J. H. Tufnell, H.
Hobhouse, T. B. Villiers, Viscount
Hodges, T. L. Vivian, Major C.
Hodgson, F. Waddington, H. S.
Hodgson, R. Wilshere, W.
Hope, hon. C. Winnington, Sir T. E.
TELLERS.
Wodehouse, E. Stanley, E. J.
Young, J. Smith, V.